2018 Florida Freeze

[Eric in Orlando]

14 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Interesting info- I didn't realize the area had been more zone 10 for stretches of time that long in the past. And in light of the 1989 freeze, I'm sure Leu was a very different place when you started there in 1992. Visiting the Orlando area over the past 15+ years, I've seen the resurgence of tropical/sub-tropical plants quite dramatically. On recent trips, I've noticed Norfolk/Cook Island pines getting to "South FL" height- Large rubber plants, established foxtails, bottle palms.

My family took trips to Disney most years in the early 2000's in February. I remember the 2000 trip being quite cold, 2003 as well. And then I remember our Dec 2010 visit was quite frigid. 

 Prior to the '83 freeze there were lots of tall, mature Norfolk Island Pines (actually Cook) and Australian Pines (Casuarina). They were mostly all killed after the '85 freeze. If you were on the elevated parts of the interstate or expressway there were lots of very visible dead "skeletons", very sad scene.

[Bill H2DB]

   The freeze of '83 did in a lot of various plants in Central Florida , and the '85 monster did in

almost all of the remains . Previous to that,  even up past Ocala , Australian Pines were seen , having been planted as

wind breaks along the North side of Citrus groves , as well as in urban areas .

   Many of the spoil islands in the ICW were covered with them . They had became a Monoculture, almost , as the litter

from the " needles " choked out almost everything else .  So in that case ,  a beneficial result .

   Also Silk Oaks were seen a good bit as a yard tree in those days , and most were killed outright . Lots of other species

were affected of course . Melaleuca is one of the goners hereabouts .  Goody .     Citrus was decimated .

I would say that 90+% of the Queen palms died , and a large % of Washingtonias too.   Even  P. Reclinata clumps froze

dead to the ground , although most regenerated .  You can extrapolate the rest......

    A few remnant Australian Pines have regenerated from the roots around the Daytona area , but are few and far between. 

Scattered memories , just rambling.......

 

 

[Missi]

21 hours ago, Cikas said:

Different parts of Europe has different climate. Here in Southern Europe, cold events are also rare. And last for few days. Temperatures below freezing are also rare. Our days in winter time are cool, not cold. But here we never water our plants before cold events. I disagree with that. We also grow different citrus species here, but we always try to avoid ice crystals on plants. Nothing good can happen after ice crystals on cold sensitive plants. 

Pretty sure the FL citrus growers know what they're doing.. 

[Cikas]

28 minutes ago, Missi said:

Pretty sure the FL citrus growers know what they're doing.. 

Well citrus species here survive and have fruits on lower temperatures than in Florida.

[Eric in Orlando]

1 hour ago, Bill H2DB said:

   The freeze of '83 did in a lot of various plants in Central Florida , and the '85 monster did in

almost all of the remains . Previous to that,  even up past Ocala , Australian Pines were seen , having been planted as

wind breaks along the North side of Citrus groves , as well as in urban areas .

   Many of the spoil islands in the ICW were covered with them . They had became a Monoculture, almost , as the litter

from the " needles " choked out almost everything else .  So in that case ,  a beneficial result .

   Also Silk Oaks were seen a good bit as a yard tree in those days , and most were killed outright . Lots of other species

were affected of course . Melaleuca is one of the goners hereabouts .  Goody .     Citrus was decimated .

I would say that 90+% of the Queen palms died , and a large % of Washingtonias too.   Even  P. Reclinata clumps froze

dead to the ground , although most regenerated .  You can extrapolate the rest......

    A few remnant Australian Pines have regenerated from the roots around the Daytona area , but are few and far between. 

Scattered memories , just rambling.......

 

 

 

There are a few Silk-Oak and Melaleuca around here that survived. They got hit bad in '83, '85 killed a lot and '89 killed more. The '83 freeze killed all the Casuarina equiesetifolia outright, C. glauca (suckering species) is a bit hardier but they were all killed to the roots after '89.  But most grew back.A 3rd species, C. cunninghamaiana was mostly unaffected, it is the hardiest and isn't weedy. Pure Phoenix reclinata were killed back, hybrids had  somedamage or were unaffected. 

[Eric in Orlando]

Here at Leu Gardens, Mr. Leu had planted quite a few tropical species mixed in with the azaleas and camellias. Some of these were killed off in the '80s but some survived. He lived here from 1936-1961 but did most of his planting between 1940 and 1955. Some of these specimens may have been planted before him.

Here are some still alive;

Caryota mitis

Dypsis lutescens

 

Bischofia javanica

Ceiba speciosa

Cinnamomum aromaticum

Enterolobium contortortisiliqua

Erythrina crista-galli

Ficus auriculata

Handroanthus impetiginosus (Tabebuia)

Handroanthus umbellatus (Tabebuia)

Inga marginata

Kigelia africana

Markhamia lutea

Peltophorum dubium

Phyllanthus juglandifolius

Pterogyne nitens

Syzygium jambos

[Eric in Orlando]

Here are specimens that were mature trees but killed sometime before 1992 (when I started working at Leu Gardens). Most of these have been replanted, some in the original locations.

 

Roystonea regia

Castanospermum australe

Ceiba pentandra

Delonix regia

Ficus elastica

Grevillea robusta

Jacaranda mimosifolia

Manilkara zapota

Melaleuca quinquenervia

Spathodea campanulata

 

[Bill H2DB]

37 minutes ago, Cikas said:

Well citrus species here survive and have fruits on lower temperatures than in Florida.

  Here is some info.  ( in case you didn't see it in my previous post  )        Specific varieties are used depending on the

local conditions , of course , and that applies to cold tolerance , intended market , soil type ( for rootstock selection), and other factors .

https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/files/database/site_file_sets/42/Frost-Freeze-Protection-Workshop-Manual.pdf

[Jimbean]

2 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

 

There are a few Silk-Oak and Melaleuca around here that survived. They got hit bad in '83, '85 killed a lot and '89 killed more. The '83 freeze killed all the Casuarina equiesetifolia outright, C. glauca (suckering species) is a bit hardier but they were all killed to the roots after '89.  But most grew back.A 3rd species, C. cunninghamaiana was mostly unaffected, it is the hardiest and isn't weedy. Pure Phoenix reclinata were killed back, hybrids had  somedamage or were unaffected. 

What do you think the hardiness of C. cunninghamaiana is?

[Eric in Orlando]

They seem to show damage below about 22-23. I would guess 17-18F is fatal. I had seen them in rural areas north of Orlando and they were dead following the '89 freeze. This would be in areas that dropped below 20F. 

It has a more open habit than the other 2 as it gets older with a more irregular crown. Older trees often have a neat, gnarled look. The other 2 species are listed as Cat 1 invasives in FL but C. cunninghamiana is listed as Cat 2. For years I have tried to find seedlings underneath mature trees or germinate seeds with no luck. I wanted to grow some for bonsai when I was still dabbling in it.

 

[Jimbean]

54 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

They seem to show damage below about 22-23. I would guess 17-18F is fatal. I had seen them in rural areas north of Orlando and they were dead following the '89 freeze. This would be in areas that dropped below 20F. 

It has a more open habit than the other 2 as it gets older with a more irregular crown. Older trees often have a neat, gnarled look. The other 2 species are listed as Cat 1 invasives in FL but C. cunninghamiana is listed as Cat 2. For years I have tried to find seedlings underneath mature trees or germinate seeds with no luck. I wanted to grow some for bonsai when I was still dabbling in it.

 

I've grown and experimented with all three before; you can find them all in Brevard.  Sometimes I think you will find hybrids between cunninghamiana and glauca that produce seeds that are not viable. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Jimbean

[Matthew92]

Thanks Eric and Bill. I love hearing details regarding the 1980s freezes- for some reason it really fascinates me.

Regarding the Melaleucas, I remember seeing significant dieback of these in the Orlando area after the 2010-11 winter.

 

[Eric in Orlando]

15 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I've grown and experimented with all three before; you can find them all in Brevard.  Sometimes I think you will find hybrids between cunninghamiana and glauca that produce seeds that are not viable. 

Many years ago C. glauca was being grafted onto  C. equisetifolia to  mke a sterile plant, no seeds or suckers. I have never seen one . Its a good idea until a hurricane breaks the top off.

[Eric in Orlando]

7 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Thanks Eric and Bill. I love hearing details regarding the 1980s freezes- for some reason it really fascinates me.

Regarding the Melaleucas, I remember seeing significant dieback of these in the Orlando area after the 2010-11 winter.

 

Are you sure the were Melaleuca? Almost all were killed after the '89 freeze. 2009-10 wasn't cold enough here to damage Melaleuca. South of here where it is naturalizing sometimes you will see big patches of dead or dying trees. This is from where they are trying to control them.

[Sandy Loam]

Melaleuca are also naturalizing along the edge of a patch of agricultural land that I have seen in Lake County, about thirty minutes northwest of Orlando.  Both patches are quite visible from the turnpike, somewhere around the exit to Howey-in-the-Hills, I believe. I could be mistaken and maybe it isn't Melaleuca.  In any case, they don't seem to have been affected by the recent cold snap.  I don't know whether they were around during the 2010 cold event.

[RedRabbit]

Latest forecast

14th: 38f

15th: 39f

18th: 35f

Nothing below freezing yet but the 18th is getting close.

[Tampa Scott]

21 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Latest forecast

14th: 38f

15th: 39f

18th: 35f

Nothing below freezing yet but the 18th is getting close.

and as always what forecast you are looking at

[Alan_Tampa]

I am done with winter now. Please send it back to Canada. 

[Palmaceae]

33 minutes ago, Alan_Tampa said:

I am done with winter now. Please send it back to Canada. 

I agree! Plus send away the flu season also as I was out for a couple days with the most severe case of flu I have ever had, and yes I did have a flu shot.

[Xhoniwaters1]

You guys in Central Florida are getting it fairly easy so far. Up in the NW we have more nights of 20's in the forecast.  That would be around 7 or 8 nights below freezing here. It isn't even February yet. This has been the worst winter and it makes me think that any year after this could be like the winters 20- 30 years ago where there wasn't a bottom. 

[RedRabbit]

Looking like it'll be cold next week. Paul Dellegatto posted this on Facebook and said he doesn't think it will really be this cold.

Edited January 12, 2018 by RedRabbit

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Looking like it'll be cold next week. Paul Dellegatto posted this on Facebook and said he doesn't think it will really be this cold.

That Okeechobee shadow is amazing even in the forcast models. 

[enigma99]

5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Looking like it'll be cold next week. Paul Dellegatto posted this on Facebook and said he doesn't think it will really be this cold.

Won’t get anywhere near that. Maybe mid/upper 30s

[kinzyjr]

Looks like it will be pretty chilly for a while after today:

 

[Chatta]

Similar to my forecast, not happy. Another possible freeze for my area :(

[Alan_Tampa]

1 hour ago, Chatta said:

Similar to my forecast, not happy. Another possible freeze for my area

I am on Hutchison by the veterans same forecast for me!

[Chatta]

7 minutes ago, Alan_Tampa said:

I am on Hutchison by the veterans same forecast for me!

Oh wow thats fairly close to me :P

[IHB1979]

My forecast has been trending down the last couple of days too. Upper 30's for Sunday morning and the following Wednesday looks to possibly be the coldest night of the year for the west coast of Florida.

[PalmatierMeg]

11 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Looking like it'll be cold next week. Paul Dellegatto posted this on Facebook and said he doesn't think it will really be this cold.

Not locally accurate for me. Those lows may occur miles further inland away from the moderating Gulf influence. My current predictions are for the a range in the 40s. That's why everyone needs to carefully monitor their individual locality and use far flung computer generated predictions as guides or wakeup calls.

[Eric in Orlando]

On 1/11/2018, 9:30:04, Sandy Loam said:

Melaleuca are also naturalizing along the edge of a patch of agricultural land that I have seen in Lake County, about thirty minutes northwest of Orlando.  Both patches are quite visible from the turnpike, somewhere around the exit to Howey-in-the-Hills, I believe. I could be mistaken and maybe it isn't Melaleuca.  In any case, they don't seem to have been affected by the recent cold snap.  I don't know whether they were around during the 2010 cold event.

I will watch for these next time I am up that way. It would be interesting to see if it is a pre-1989 or post-89 planting.

 

 

[RedRabbit]

2 hours ago, Alan_Tampa said:

I am on Hutchison by the veterans same forecast for me!

Looks like you're about 5 miles NW of me. I think you, Tampa Scott, and myself should have almost an identical climate. I understand Chatta has lakefront property which seems to make it a little warmer.

[Alan_Tampa]

I use Tampa Scott's wunderground station for my house! 

[Palmaceae]

Cape Coral forecasted lows for the week are in the 40's except for Wednesday night, which is forecasted to hit 35. I was really hoping for rain today but did not get a drop.

[Tampa Scott]

7 hours ago, Alan_Tampa said:

I use Tampa Scott's wunderground station for my house! 

Let's hope next weeks forecast improves and doesn't go downhill.

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Tampa Scott

[Matthew92]

Wow......

Area Forecast Discussion
National Weather Service Mobile AL
523 PM CST Fri Jan 12 2018

 

LONG TERM /Tuesday Through Friday/...The broad upper longwave
trough east of the Rockies over Canada, the U.S. and northern
Mexico will be reinforced and dig a little further southward
through Tuesday night as strong upper level impulses embedded in
the trough from the Great Lakes to the southern plains move
eastward. A 100 to 130 knot jet stream along the periphery of the
trough will move southeast, with the strongest upper level winds
occurring over the eastern conus Tuesday and Tuesday night,
putting our area in the right entrance region of the upper jet.
This will enhance lift across the area and could promote periods
of rain or a mix of rain and snow Tuesday afternoon.

A strong surface cold front will continue moving south across the
Gulf of Mexico, allowing very cold temperatures to advect into the
forecast area from the north through Tuesday night. Sub-freezing
temperatures are expected to push all the way to the gulf coast by
late Tuesday night, allowing the light rain to change over to all
snow as far south as the northern gulf.

Snow accumulations will be determined at a late time, but a blend
of the GFS and ECMWF currently have up to one inch snow north of
I-10. Snow accumulations may end up being even higher as the
thermal profiles may still be a bit a underdone. Dynamic cooling
in the lower levels due to evaporative cooling and the "dragging"
of cold air aloft closer to surface is sometimes not accounted for
in the models, and additional moisture may be drawn in ahead of
the system. This system is pushing through rather fast, so the
entire event will be less then 24 hours. Dry conditions will
follow Wednesday and Thursday behind the cold front. Much below
normal temperatures will persist through the long term. /22
 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

My forecast keeps getting worse and the further east you go the colder it gets so it looks like this front will push more towards Louisiana again, which is not good for Florida folk. Another 48 hour stretch of sub freezing is to be expected in Baton Rouge again.  

[RedRabbit]

9 hours ago, Alan_Tampa said:

I use Tampa Scott's wunderground station for my house! 

Awesome, I didn't know he had one. Which station is it?

[Tampa Scott]

7 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Awesome, I didn't know he had one. Which station is it?

KFLTAMPA19

 

[Succulentum]

On 10/1/2018 00:56:35, Cikas said:

Ice has no stable temperature. Water ice is created at 0C/32F, but temperature of ice depends on the ambient temperature. If ambient temperature is 20F, ice temperature will be close to that. Snow is also ice, frost is also ice. When ice touches the tissue of plants susceptible to temperatures below zero, cell membranes in the tissue will start to break due to volume growth.

It is very simple, you will freeze to death much faster in freezing water than on dry land. Plus fungus really like wet conditions. Plants always survive much lover temperatures when they are dry.

For example, banana plant will survive much lower temperatures if dry, but it will rot if wet during freezing cold.

People use frost cloth to prevent the formation of ice on the plants.

This Florida practice goes against everything we learn and practice here. Do an experiment with some sensitive plants. Keep one wet, other dry, exposing them to temperatures below zero. You will see that the one keept dry will look better.

It works very well. Ice has stable temperature as long as there is liquide water to transform in ice.
we do that widely in France for wine and fruit trees, only on the beginin of spring, at the budburst
For water at its normal freezing point of 0 ºC, the specific heat of Fusion is 334 J g-1.
the formation each g of ice makes 334 joules of heat, that why if the temperature don't down below -6°C (21F) you can keep the buds at 0°C with continious sprinkeling. it's not watering but sprinkling every gram of water is changed to ice.

it's not for banana tree or other ornemantals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA5MGIP5v7k

jean-bernard

very mild weather here in western Europe no freeze in 2018

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Succulentum

[IHB1979]

First time in a while that NOAA is forecasting warmer for my area than the other outlets. 44F tonight and 40F for Wednesday night, although I’ve seen as low as 35 forecasted. Several more days to fluctuate. Haven’t had a winter like this in a long time.