Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana?

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Jim,

More info has come in. The guy that is growing them in Abq. lives at an 800 foot lower elevation than me. That is a heck of a lot of difference, cold wise. Also, he wraps them every year. People have to understand that we live in a geologically extreme area. The city spans 2000 feet in elevation from the foot of the mtns. to the river bottom. He's at 4900, I'm at 5700.

Doug

PS: I travel a lot, so I can't be worried about my palms. I will shelter them (S. facing wall) but I don't have time to "diaper" them!

[David N.TX.]

Reports out of Oklahoma City and Tulsa are good for Sabal uresana and Sabal "Birmingham" as the hardiest trunking palms. I was in Carlsbad last November and the palms looked damaged from the previous winter. Most of what I saw were Washingtonia and a Sabal or two. I was with a group and did not have enough time to stop and look further. I guy in OKC sells  the "Birminghams" try www.hardypalms.com  Good Luck!

[NBTX11]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 06 2007,14:44)

QUOTE

Jim,

More info has come in. The guy that is growing them in Abq. lives at an 800 foot lower elevation than me. That is a heck of a lot of difference, cold wise. Also, he wraps them every year. People have to understand that we live in a geologically extreme area. The city spans 2000 feet in elevation from the foot of the mtns. to the river bottom. He's at 4900, I'm at 5700.

Doug

PS: I travel a lot, so I can't be worried about my palms. I will shelter them (S. facing wall) but I don't have time to "diaper" them!

I know what you mean, I don't do elaborate cold protection either.  If it is going to make it, it will make it, if it dies, it dies.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

I know what you mean, I don't do elaborate cold protection either.  If it is going to make it, it will make it, if it dies, it dies.

Decided on another potential that would do better than a Brahea armata...the Salbal Birmingham seems to be the choice. not a desert plant, but more cold hardy than the other two. No protection ("diapering") needed!

Doug

PS: Prelim. observations (from a friend) suggest that most or all of the Washy's in ABQ did not make it..maybe they were not pure filiferas ???

[NBTX11]

The other thing to consider, Doug, is that Filiferas can take for example 0-5 F on rare occasions, but if it saw that every year, it would probably go into decline and die. (just a guess) I know the ones around here saw single digits in 1989, but it hasn't been below about 20F or slightly below since then.  Nowhere near single digits.  It's been averaging between 23 and 27F for a winter low here lately.  On second thought, you might want to go with sabal birmingham, if they are growing them in OKC and Tulsa.  They get as cold as you do if not colder.  Or could try both as an expiriment.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

On second thought, you might want to go with sabal birmingham, if they are growing them in OKC and Tulsa.  They get as cold as you do if not colder.  Or could try both as an expiriment.

Jim,

I plan to! Just checking on size an availability right now.

Doug

[Lee in AZ]

null

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 05 2007,14:35)

QUOTE

They barely hang on in TorC (200 mi south and 2000 feet lower!!)

Doug

Ah for the record no T Or C is at 4852 ft.

I'd call this more than barely surviving, I'd call it thriving. Pic I took in 2003.

Pic I took in 2006, see anything around the base of those palms that gives you and idea that they're happy, maybe say all the seedlings?

There's plenty of Washingtonia in the T Or C, Elephant Butte area.

Lee

[Lee in AZ]

Here's a young filifera burried in some snow from that storm that hit just after the new year. This filifera has been in the ground since 2002 at nearly 6,000' elevation. It's in ABQ just south of Academy east of Eubank.

Some filifera x robustas in ABQ on the westside.

I'd go with a W. filifera. A filifera would recover better than either a Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana. I'd also suggest that you get a least a 15 gallon size filifera, the bigger the better. Now Las Cruces is only 220 some miles from ABQ and El Paso is only 260, and it's one of the easiest drives in this country, if you can't find enough motivation to drive down there for some nice palms than perhaps palms just aren't your thing? I just got an email tonight from a palm fanatic from North Carolina that travel to CA to get some palms.

Lee

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Truth or Consequences, New Mexico (NM) Detailed Profile ...

Current weather forecast for Truth or Consequences, NM Population (year 2000): 7289. ... Elevation: 4242

Lee,

Ummm....please check your facts:

http://www.city-data.com/city/Truth-or-Con...New-Mexico.html

And, naturally, that depends on what part of the city you are in...much like Albuquerque. My apologies..I should have said ABOUT 2000 feet lower!

Doug

PS: Last time I checked, the Rio Grande river cannot flow up hill!

PPS: The last picture of the palms in ABQ that you posted...DEAD!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

NEW NEWS!!

I spoke with my nursery guy in Abq. He has taken back a RASH of returns and complaints about the palms he sold over the last few years. I his estimation, unless they were EXTREMELY protected (in a courtyard or covered patio up against a corner wall, etc.) or wrapped, most or all of the Washys were lost this winter.

As I said before, I don't "diaper" my palms.

Doug

Do you know how much work it would be to dig up a 10FT+ Washy? I don't and I wouldn't want to know!

[Kris]

Dear Lee  

i must tell you folks that daily i used to peep in to see any

stills of palms in discussion.

But lee after seeing your stills_ i thought my prayers for some

visuals are answered.

those huge tall filiferas are great ! they look like gaints,very rare site to see such huge Washy Filiferas.

thanks & love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

All,

8 out of the last 13 years have been some of the hottest on record. In addition, EVERY year in the past 13 has been above to well above average, especially the winters. During this time period, we have pushed almost into an entire new ZONE!

Until this year, the lowest annual temp. never got below 9F in the last 13 years. Of course a Washy can survive this...but this winter...-5F to 5F depending on what part of the city you were in...basically, normal.

Global Warming? Maybe...but I do not want to get caught (like most of the Washy people in ABQ.) in a normal winter.

Doug

[Lee in AZ]

Doug,

Facts checked:

Truth Or Consequences, New Mexico

Elevation: 4852 ft / 1479 m  

Lat/Lon: 33.1° N 107.2° W

If you're so positive that Washingtonia filifera won't grow in ABQ, then why are you asking about palms such as Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana? Those are much less likely to recover from the weather concerns you've expressed.

Thank Kris, I'm glad you enjoyed the pics. Have a great day.

Lee

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Facts checked:

Truth Or Consequences, New Mexico

Elevation: 4852 ft / 1479 m  

Lat/Lon: 33.1° N 107.2° W

Lee,

By posting these views, you are misinforming the readers. I find it highly offensive and inappropriate.  This is not a matter of opinion, but FACT. Unless you include the peaks surrounding T or C (where, of coarse, no one lives), this cannot be true. A river cannot flow upstream. That is proof enough. Is it a "magic" river? To quote the movie "My Cousin Vinny", "Do the laws of physics cease to exist (in NM)?"

Regarding the Brahea or Sabal, every palm is effected differently by different climates. No one that I have found is trying this one here, so who knows?  Unlike the accurate facts I discussed above, this question is left open to trial and error, opinion, etc. That is why I am asking.

I'm ending this discussion now because it is a waste of my time. Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about.

I would like to thank everyone for their input!!

[Lee in AZ]

You tell me what elevation this weather station is at then is I'm misleading people....ABQ, palms and such

Elephant Butte and T Or C, down to Deming and Hatch as well.

Las Cruces

What's highly offensive and inappropriate in my opinion is your lack of knowledge for palms in the state for which you post.

Here's a picture of some Washingtonia filifera volunteers that are more than barely making it in T Or C.

Here's another filfiera barely making it jsut south of T or C.

I bet you're going to suggest that this is not possible in T or C either?

Doug, I've researched the issue of Washingtonia in ABQ more than you could ever guess and the proof is in my pictures.

Lee

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Doug, I've researched the issue of Washingtonia in ABQ more than you could ever guess and the proof is in my pictures.

Hey Guys,

Maybe I should plant a tall Acoelorraphe wrightii this summer and take a picture of it...the quote would read,"Hey...look what can grow here!!"LOL!!

[Lee in AZ]

All of the plants I took a picture of in my ABQ albums have been in the ground for numerous years.

Perhaps you should just try some roses Doug, unless you think they're not hardy in ABQ.

Oh and by the way Brahea armata has been tried in ABQ but has been found that it recovers to slowly to make it worth it.

Clearly your knowledge of Washingtonia recovery is limited Doug.

Here's some Washingtonia and a Phoenix canariensis in an area of NM where it is not uncommon to see single digit yearly lows every few years.

Fall of 2003

Winter of 2004

Summer of 2004

Needless to say every winter those palms finish the season 100% burnt. By mid summer they have green canopies again.

Lee

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Lee,

Your obviously an idiot (sorry, everyone, it had to be said), but in the long term (barring SERIOUS climate change to the warm side...which I'm not doubting is possible), these species cannot survive. If you can read (which it appears that you cannot), I am looking for species that can survive MORE than 10 years. Obviously, these plants have survived the last 10 years. Funny, I have not seen any palms (other than the Trachys, Mini palmettos and Med, fans) that were planted OVER ten years ago!!

We have had an unprecedented warm and dry spell. As the thread states, I am looking for species that can withstand only short periods below 0F. MOST of the plants that have been pictured have died after last winter's cold period.

Mr. AZ is just that, in AZ...he has not lived here for 30 YEARS like I have and has exhausted REAL TIME data on the subject.

Again, this topic is about long-term and sustainable (sorry, Lee...that word is too big for you, isn't it) growth of palms in Abq. with little or no protection.

(Gees...I love this debate...I have to admit!!)

[Lee in AZ]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 04 2007,15:52)

QUOTE

I'm ramping up my palm planting aspirations and need some forum advice from the zone benders before I dump $$$ into this:D .

Again, mixed research/opinions about these two, but which one is more cold hardy and will perform better in my cold high desert conditions here in zone 7- the Sabal mexicana (Mexican Palmetto) or the Brahea armata (Mexican blue palm / Blue hesper palm)?

Thanks all!!

Doug

Doug, sorry the topic as you wrote it was "Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana? (Pages 1 2 )

Which is more cold hardy- still looking"

Not "topic is about long-term and sustainable".

And you'd be the idiot if you live in the SW and had such limited knowledge about Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana.

If you want palms that'll last 30 years in ABQ then Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Sabal minor, and various Trachycarpus species.

I also am enjoying this debate with you about palms as you seem to know so little about the subject.

Lee

[NBTX11]

Interesting topic back and forth.

The only true long term 30 year palm would be a trachy.

But if a palm can last 10-15 yrs with minimum protection, to me personally I would plant it.  Life is too short to worry about if it will make it 30 years.  I might be dead in 30 years

For example, I (and others around here) have Syagrus Romanzofianna in the ground.  I don't protect it and it does fine.  Everyone knows that an 80s type freeze will kill it.  But the last 15 years they have been fine, to me it is worth growing.

I personally would plant a larger Filifera in ABQ, but that would be up to you Doug, whether you wanted something that is permanent or only semi permanent.  I think it is hardier than just about any palm other than trachys, and maybe a handful of others, which is debateable.  Good luck and let us know which ones you do put in ground.

[Kris]

Dear Doug  

come on cool down friend,since iam a fan of the movie star

vin diseal in fast and furious part _1.and still think you are as cool as him.kindly stop scoulding your own country man.

and its a humble request for the sake of international members like me.

And Dear Lee those stills are fasinating to me.and this thread is full of beautiful palms post after post.but kindly do not irriate our friend to.. since his words tells it all.

you guys are great,so lets go back to the discussion.

Thanks & Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Hi Kris,

I apologize for my frustration. I become upset and irritated when people misinform the public. If anyone new was reading this, they may spend hundreds or THOUSANDS of dollars buying palms thinking that they will survive..and they won't..in this climate. I have lost many a palm (Filiferas and Washy hybrids) on testing! There are many new people that are moving into Abq. and they are not aware that it usually gets REALLY cold here in the winter. For the last few years, we have been 5-10 degrees above normal in the winter... until this year where most (or all) of the Washy's, etc. were lost unless well, well, WELL protected!

Kris, you are a beautiful person. All the love and good thoughts back to you!

Doug

[NBTX11]

(krisachar @ May 09 2007,11:46)

QUOTE

Dear Lee  

i must tell you folks that daily i used to peep in to see any

stills of palms in discussion.

But lee after seeing your stills_ i thought my prayers for some

visuals are answered.

those huge tall filiferas are great ! they look like gaints,very rare site to see such huge Washy Filiferas.

thanks & love,

Kris  

Kris,

We have thousands of Filiferas around San Antonio TX that are that big or bigger.  One of these days I will do a photo thread on them.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Thanks, by the way, Jim.

I have heard recent reports that some Sabals are actually more hardy in dry conditions (in the winter only) than wet. They become "freeze dried" so to speak in the winter that may push it up a zone.

Anyone on the board have this experience or heard anything additional on this?

Thanks all,

Doug

[NBTX11]

^^I have heard this too, but I can't verify it.  But I have heard it is mainly true for desert palms.  For example, A washingtonia in El Paso, a very dry climate, is supposed to be able to take much lower temps than that same Washingtonia if it were placed in the Southeastern US.  Another reason I suggest Filifera is because of your dry climate.  They supposedly look worse in humid coastal climates.  Although I have seen some decent ones in FL.

[NBTX11]

(Lee in AZ @ May 09 2007,19:42)

QUOTE

Here's some Washingtonia and a Phoenix canariensis in an area of NM where it is not uncommon to see single digit yearly lows every few years.

Fall of 2003

Winter of 2004

Summer of 2004

These are not pure filiferas.  Whoever planted these should have planted filiferas and not hybrids, imo, and they wouldn't burn so bad.

[jrod]

Right now, i'm a horticulture student at NMSU in Las Cruces.  You get a little colder and have more snowfall(i think?) but one of my professors swears by Sabals for the area.  

I have also heard that Nannorhops is much hardier in a dry climate.  I left seedlings w/ 3-strap leaves in containers out all winter long and they had no damage.

[NBTX11]

jrod, what palms do you have around Las Cruces.  I haven't been there, but hear there are a lot of palms around town.

[edbrown_III]

Doug,

I dont know if I can rate one over the other but I have a Sabal mexicana that I have had out in very severe freezes. I got it from the IPS seedbank in 1982 , it was listed as S. texana --- synonomous with S. mexicana ...  IT was subjected to very hard freezes in 1985, 1986, 1989.   s0 it has seen 12 F. ...  

I have a Brahea armata that I    planted out in 1988,  it had some spear damage in 1989 --- we had 16 F and 4 days of very cold weather 2 or 3 nights in the teen s here in Jacksonville Fl.

Like some of the others, I have read of Washingtonia in Alburquerque,   I think Tamar Myers had a journal out of Ohio about palms and they discussed it there. THis was in the 1980's though. That was then but it may not have survived over the long haul.  

Best regards,

Ed Brown

[Kris]

(syersj @ May 10 2007,13:11)

QUOTE

Kris,

We have thousands of Filiferas around San Antonio TX that are that big or bigger.  One of these days I will do a photo thread on them.

Dear Jim  

that's really sweet of you to do so ! my sleepy eyes have all

brightned up.and its very clear to receive those Big Jamboo's.

Thanks & Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

these are not pure filiferas.  Whoever planted these should have planted filiferas and not hybrids, imo, and they wouldn't burn so bad.

Hi Jim,

These are dead...I assure you. It is a shame, but as we discussed, over the past 8 years, winters on average have been 5-10F warmer than usual during the winters. Here's the NWS climate chart for the rest of the readers:

Based on size, species and climate, I would estimate that these were probably planted in 1998 or 1999. This would make sense because it has not dropped below 9F since then until last winter when it hit -5F to about 5F, depending on the part of the city.

I wish I could check out these palms today first hand to see how they faired. Unfortunately, no info. was given as to location and/or current health. I'm not sure that this is even in Abq!!

I agree, Jim, a pure filifera very well protected is you only hope here for even short-term success. I've tried them 3 times-pures and crosses- with extreme protection (one year I did wrap a palm..that's why I won't do it again). No luck.

[Kris]

Dear Doug  

Please don't apologise,since we here in india after a wordly duel or even a hand fight,the following day we folks will sit in the same table in a resturant sharing a cup of tea or coffee as thought nothing has happened the previous day.

i think that's what we call friendship,that is the reason why

man is called a social animal !

may be that is the reason india is able to live with such hostile neighbours around...

I belive that even lee is able to feel likewise_as friends as

before !

And Doug i learn a lot of good things from you guys.so don't praise me  

what i realised in life is an isolated man is like a premitive island where nothing goes in or out.(Barren Land) !

And lee the topic heading states about Breha & Mexicana

do you have stills of them growing in the area Doug lives

in.if so some stills please.

Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

have also heard that Nannorhops is much hardier in a dry climate.  I left seedlings w/ 3-strap leaves in containers out all winter long and they had no damage.

Jrod,

The Mazari is almost a shoe-in here (if I can get a larger specimen). I have had a Med fan now for over 10 years. It burns almost every year, but comes back. Even after this winter (0F at my house) it came back..barely, but its growing.

It's hard to get any Sabal locally in the west since they are mainly wet climate palms. It looks like mail-order for me!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Like some of the others, I have read of Washingtonia in Alburquerque,   I think Tamar Myers had a journal out of Ohio about palms and they discussed it there. THis was in the 1980's though. That was then but it may not have survived over the long haul.  

Hi Ed,

If I remember correctly, there was plantings in the late 80's here. Unfortunately, in 1990 it got down to -7F and everything (even some newly planted Trachy's) were lost. It is getting less and less frequent, but every 3-5 years (now 5-7 years-est.) it will drop below 0-5F. If climate change continues, maybe in my life time we will push a zone and we WILL be able to plant Washy's!

Thanks Ed,

Doug

[jrod]

(syersj @ May 11 2007,00:13)

QUOTE

jrod, what palms do you have around Las Cruces.  I haven't been there, but hear there are a lot of palms around town.

Jim,

I haven't seen anything too out of the ordinary so far but I haven't looked around too much either.  There are many Washingtonia filifera, Washingtonia robusta, and Hybrid.  These are probably the most planted palms in town.  It seems like every landscape has a few of them.  There are also many Chamaerops humilis and Trachycarpus.  These are the majority of palms around town.

I have also seen Brahea armata, Phoenix canariensis, Butia capitata, and the Wal-mart here has many nice size palms that look like Phoenix dactylifera.

One of these days i'll go out and take some pictures.

Doug, I was actually really surprised to see sabals at Lowes here in LC.  I am going to be going to see more of the nurseries around LC and El Paso soon, so I will let you know what I see and think of them.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Right, I know it probably wouldn't be totally permanent, but if you can get 10-15 years out of it, to me it's worth it.  Then you replace it.

Hi Jim,

Based on the research and data, I think  8 years is the max thus far (and that's just from 1998-2006..the longest, warmest period ever in recorded history)...by far and then some. For the winter month's between 1998-2006, additional research has shown that we pushed 1 or even 2 ZONES!! In essence, we had El Paso weather.

Like I said before. If your willing to have palms as annuals...go for it! I just would hate to have to dig out a 15 Ft Washy. They're nasty buggers!

Doug

PS: Still waiting for current (2007) pictures of 10-15FT+ Washy's in Abq! Apparently, it's like proof that aliens exist!!

[NBTX11]

Guess you might be out of luck unless you want to plant a bunch of trachys in your yard...or plant against a south wall and provide protection every now and then...or be willing to replant every 5-10 yrs...just my guess.

[Lee in AZ]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 11 2007,12:16)

QUOTE

I wish I could check out these palms today first hand to see how they faired. Unfortunately, no info. was given as to location and/or current health. I'm not sure that this is even in Abq!!

Clearly you've missed the point of these boards Palm Boy. It is to pass along knowledge and shared experiences, there's no way you have much knowledge about palms otherwise you would not be asking such "palms 101" questions. I currently reside in Tucson but I'll do my best to travel to ABQ before the summer is out to get pictures of Washingtonia that have survived the January of 2007 event. In all the years I've been posting you'd be the first to question the locations authenticity in which I've taken pictures.  Hey there always has to be a first for everything. I'll enjoy proving you wrong before the summer is out. Without a doubt you've put on the greatest display of ignorance I've seen in a long time.

Perhaps you think this Washingtonia picture was taken in Yuma, Arizona?

Sabal minor also in Yuma, AZ?

Trachycarpus fortunei in San Carlos, Sonora?

Nah all those were taken in the 87111 zip code of ABQ, NM.

Wait, I planted all of the above palms, so it occured to me that while I live in Tucson, I've got more species of palms in the gound in ABQ then you do "Palm BOY".

Don't you have some rose bushes to trim? If not, once again might I suggest a plant which might better suit you skill level; http://www.ars.org/ They would be easier to grow for someone with your horticultural aptitude.

As to not waste the time of others to read your pointless rants about this topic, please feel free to PM me, I would enjoy slinging insults back and forth in a way that would not continue to be insulting to those desiring to read about palms. Once again, as the boards are meant to be.

Lee

[Kris]

Dear Lee  

those stills with so much snow on top of the fan palms is

frightening.to see such a sight in india i must go to kashmir

or dargeling.

it appears like shaving gel sprayed on top of the fan palm,

just waiting to get a clean shave ! and did these palms survive this cruel climate ?

jesus your climate is frightening...

thanks & Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

No question Sabal minors grow here. There is one at the Zoo that has seen -10F!! Currently, there are about 4 species of palms (maybe even 5) that can grow here:

Trachy's -Definitely!

Some Sabals- Definitely!

Chamaerops humilis-Definitely!

Rhapidophyllum hystrix- The jury says yes.

Nannorrhops ritchiana- Probably.

Washys are not one of them.

I also live in the 87111 zip. My Med Fan barely made and it is hardier than a Washy.

Still looking for current (2007) old growth Washy photos (and addresses for verification) from Abq.!!

"Rosebud"