Jump to content
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Small Area of Zone 10a In Lousisana


PalmTreeDude

Recommended Posts

Exactly. I'm a solid 10a, but there's way too little heat here to support the growth of most tropical plants. Sure, we very rarely dip below 40 F, but it's actually nice to see a winter day where the high manages to creep above 70 F.

  • Like 1

sbpalms_banner1.png.6b44bf3d0d7c501ebff4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
On 12/1/2016, 9:10:28, Yunder Wækraus said:

But it's important to remember that CA and southern Louisiana are quite different. Southern Louisiana is quite a bit further south that San Diego, and it borders on a body of water that is extremely warm during the summer (the Gulf of Mexico average temp never drops below 60 at Grand Isle, Louisiana https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/egof.html ). Louisiana would probably be 11a at the coast and 10a well inland if only the South were protected from arctic blasts by a ring of mountains. CA, on the other hand, is bordered by a very cold ocean (average temps get as low as 59 in San Diego, and they never approach 70 even in the summer https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/spac.html ). CA is protected from arctic blasts by high mountains, and the cold Pacific moderates things enough to avoid coastal freezes. Inland Southern CA is probably as warm as can be. I doubt even a warm water current running along the coast of Southern California would increase what could be grown there. Louisiana, however, is performing far below its potential. If only the earth would get with the program and give the South some taller mountains (and place them east to west) :-)

I really don't understand the water warmth in Grand Isle; average highs there are no higher than 63F, and lows are in the low 40s.

Wilmington NC with an average water temp of 58F in Jan? Much warmer than many places on the coast further south  (Georgia, South Carolina, etc)? Virginia Beach waters in the 60s in Dec, even with highs/lows in 50s/30s. Doesn't add up.

Edited by AnTonY
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

Not many people even try. But, more recently with warmer temperatures in South Louisiana and milder temperatures,  I have seen an increase of palms being planted and they seem to do very well.   So, I believe its definitely worth a try.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
On 12/14/2016 at 3:02 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

Royals? :rolleyes:

I know this is an older thread, but I’ll say yes, there are royals that have survived sometime on Grand Isle. There was a large one that I believe is no longer there, but a grouping of mid sized royals have survived the last few winters on the island. There are nice sized norfolks around as well. I have seen photos that have foxtails in the background, but not sure what’s all left after Hurricane Ida destroyed the island. The island is a solid zone 9b, I believe bordering a zone 10a. From the little I follow the islands winter temps on my local weather app, temps don’t usually fluctuate much in the low 60s/high 50s. Not sure if that can sustain coconuts, don’t know much about them honestly. This next week seems to be another harsh freeze for much of the south, and Grand Isle is looking at a low of 32F as of now; my central Louisiana zone 9a/8b is looking at 14F. New Orleans 24F. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • The place shown on the map used to have a town there known as Burrwood, and at the main mouth of the river there was Port Eads. In the old days, there were weather stations there.
  • I have found coconuts washed up on the Louisiana coast but have never seen any sprout.
  • The least freeze prone "inhabited" area of La. is Boothville and Venice near the mouth of the Miss. River.  A north or northeast wind has to cross a swath of Gulf to arrive there so this local area is a bit insulated from the cold. It had enormous orange groves that survived all of the record freezes of the 60s and 80s only to be wiped out by standing saltwater from Hurricane Katrina. I have seen a few Queen Palm "farms' down there. Winters are still too cold and wet to grow a mango tree though.
  • Average annual minimums there  are comparable with Galveston or maybe even Daytona.
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I concur southern Louisiana is absolutely zone 10. The areas out in the Gulf are very heavily moderated with plenty of water on all sides, it's too bad there is very little data climate wise in that area.

Don't know if it's off topic for this thread, but speaking of Louisiana hardiness zones, there is a Baton Rouge wunderground station right on the Mississippi River and in downtown that is probably mid-high end 9b. It seems to be 2+ Celsius warmer than the Baton Rouge Metropolitan Airport where the main station is, last winter was high end 9a for it despite being high end 8b for the airport and it narrowly avoided the March 13, 2022 frost that gave the airport a hard frost, only getting 8 freezes last winter from January 2-February 6 in a very New Orleans-like fashion.
In my opinion this part of Baton Rouge may be around the same as New Orleans Louis Armstrong International Airport for window of freezes, number of freezes, and temperature of freezes, seeing as how it did so well even during the bad winter last season.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the records for Grand Isle, the average is on par with something you would see in inland central Florida.  Records of note are the 1962 freeze where there were teens and low 20s across the I-4 corridor, 1957/1958.  2014 was a bad freeze for the Gulf area and NW FL.  If there was more data, especially for the 1980s, we'd have a clearer picture:

image.png.57d622c53a403a1abfa4cd3ac38b864a.png

The attached sheet is the formatted records used to derive this information as well as a copy of the table above.

202212201030_GrandIsle_LA_Master.xlsx

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Sabal_Louisiana said:

The least freeze prone "inhabited" area of La. is Boothville and Venice near the mouth of the Miss. River.

Boothville is pretty convincing.  The statistics in regard to average annual low and absolute minimum are on par with Daytona Beach.  Venice gives us some insight as to what the 1890s were like there, with a low of 9F during the 1899 Valentine's Day freeze.

202212201225_VeniceBoothville.thumb.jpg.3e4570c7627b47241a63794ffa88e856.jpg

USC00169298_Venice.xlsx USW00012884_Boothville.xlsx

  • Like 2

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/19/2022 at 3:29 PM, Sabal_Louisiana said:
  • The place shown on the map used to have a town there known as Burrwood, and at the main mouth of the river there was Port Eads. In the old days, there were weather stations there.
  • I have found coconuts washed up on the Louisiana coast but have never seen any sprout.
  • The least freeze prone "inhabited" area of La. is Boothville and Venice near the mouth of the Miss. River.  A north or northeast wind has to cross a swath of Gulf to arrive there so this local area is a bit insulated from the cold. It had enormous orange groves that survived all of the record freezes of the 60s and 80s only to be wiped out by standing saltwater from Hurricane Katrina. I have seen a few Queen Palm "farms' down there. Winters are still too cold and wet to grow a mango tree though.
  • Average annual minimums there  are comparable with Galveston or maybe even Daytona.

I have seen mangos in NOLA, although not in person. On one of my Facebook groups, someone posted them picking from a decent sized tree; should’ve saved the post. I believe there is at least one established tree at the Royal Sonesta in a courtyard. Not sure if they’ll ever pick up however. Papayas are far more popular in NOLA in backyards. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/22/2016 at 6:39 PM, Walt said:

IMO, a true zone 10a climate (and probably the best with respect to growing coconut palms) is one that has no topographical influences, such as water (ocean, Gulf), elevation, urban heat island effect, etc.. It's farther longitudinal location towards the equator is basically responsible for it's 10a climate -- and not topographical influencing features.

IMO, a true zone 10a climate, at least in Florida, would be more like an area of Homestead or some point inland in a remote area without any influences as stated above.  Such an area would have a higher average temperature and higher daytime temperatures with probably the maximum temperature swing from low to high.

Conversely, a zone 10a location at a much higher latitude, but next to a large water body, would have lower average (wintertime) temperatures due to the water. The water would help hold the low temperatures up, but it would also hold daytime temperatures down as the water absorbed heat from the air and direct radiation from the sun, especially if the wind is coming off the water. The temperature swing from low to high would span less in degrees.

So, the upshot here is, no way would a 10a location up in Louisiana delta area be comparable to a 10a location in inland south Florida, with respect to the average heat a coconut palm needs to sustain itself. Even though an area has a zone 10a USDA rating, unless it has the adequate wintertime heat (air and soil temperature) coconut palms probably wouldn't make it there.

 

 

 

Very good explanation, Walt.  It is for this reason that the Zone 10A Climate of Galveston cannot support Coconut Palms for more than a couple of years at the most, due to it's chilly daytime high temps for about 2 and a half months throughout the winter, and it is for this same reason that even Zone 10B and borderline 11A Climates in coastal Southern California have a hard time supporting Coconut Palms too, due to the chilly wintertime highs for too many months for them, with the exception of some very localized ideal marginal microclimates for them, which have been posted about and discussed at length here on Palmtalk.  Down here in Corpus Christi, we just barely edge into Coconut Palm growing territory due to our normal daytime highs just barely by the skin or our teeth being warm enough for them in the wintertime, and the fact that we frequently have highs in the 70'sF, and even occasionally in the 80'sF in winter here, and by mid to late February, we start to warm up quickly and have an early spring here, compared to the chillier Zone 10A Climates of Galveston, that little sliver of the Louisiana Coast, and Southern California, and we have significantly WARMER summers here in Corpus Christi with good humidity for Coconut Palms, much warmer summers here than coastal Southern California, with the exception of the occasional Santa Ana Winds there.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Boothville is pretty convincing.  The statistics in regard to average annual low and absolute minimum are on par with Daytona Beach.  Venice gives us some insight as to what the 1890s were like there, with a low of 9F during the 1899 Valentine's Day freeze.

202212201225_VeniceBoothville.thumb.jpg.3e4570c7627b47241a63794ffa88e856.jpg

USC00169298_Venice.xlsx 148.95 kB · 0 downloads USW00012884_Boothville.xlsx 518.98 kB · 0 downloads

I notice a couple issues with the Boothville data… It doesn’t include 2020 which would surely pull the average down. Moreover, it doesn’t seem to include all of 2019 either so I’m not sure if that 37f low is legit.

Not to get picky, but the threshold for 10a is 30.1f so it’s right on the boarder.

  • Like 1

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I notice a couple issues with the Boothville data… It doesn’t include 2020 which would surely pull the average down. Moreover, it doesn’t seem to include all of 2019 either so I’m not sure if that 37f low is legit.

Not to get picky, but the threshold for 10a is 30.1f so it’s right on the boarder.

The year I had my eye on for Boothville was 1971.  It's missing more than 100 days, and those days include January and February, so that 45F is probably not legit.  1965 is missing all of January and most of February, as well as September through December.  1969 is missing from mid-October through December.  1988 and 2000 are missing more than half the year.  I tossed the lows for 2019, 2000, 1988, 1971, 1969 and 1965 and got 29.24 for the average.   Not zone 10a, but roughly equivalent to somewhere inland in Central Florida.

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

The year I had my eye on for Boothville was 1971.  It's missing more than 100 days, and those days include January and February, so that 45F is probably not legit.  1965 is missing all of January and most of February, as well as September through December.  1969 is missing from mid-October through December.  1988 and 2000 are missing more than half the year.  I tossed the lows for 2019, 2000, 1988, 1971, 1969 and 1965 and got 29.24 for the average.   Not zone 10a, but roughly equivalent to somewhere inland in Central Florida.

Agreed, some sort of 9b that’s similar to Central Florida makes sense. That does make for some interesting possibilities there. We’ve seen royals doing well, it makes me wonder what else might be possible there. Unfortunately for them, such a small area has a favorable climate there probably aren’t any nurseries selling tender stuff. How those royals are there is ever more puzzling when you consider that.

  • Like 2

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/30/2016 at 6:03 PM, _Keith said:

There is no 10a long term in Louisiana.   

So, yet another Arctic blast will decimate South Louisiana.  Low of 21, high of 33, low of 21, high of 37, low of 23 and then 24 is on the way.  I am not even sure that South Louisiana deserves a Zone 9a rating.  A few year ago, we had a low of 16.  Last 15 years has been a real bitch down here.  And remember, one or two nights of Zone 7b can wipe out a year of Zone 9a

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, _Keith said:

So, yet another Arctic blast will decimate South Louisiana.  Low of 21, high of 33, low of 21, high of 37, low of 23 and then 24 is on the way.  I am not even sure that South Louisiana deserves a Zone 9a rating.  A few year ago, we had a low of 16.  Last 15 years has been a real bitch down here.  And remember, one or two nights of Zone 7b can wipe out a year of Zone 9a

I remember going to New Orleans back in 2008 and thought that it looked roughly like Jacksonville, Florida.  I would have guessed 8B/9A zone.

  • Like 3

Brevard County, Fl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, _Keith said:

So, yet another Arctic blast will decimate South Louisiana.  Low of 21, high of 33, low of 21, high of 37, low of 23 and then 24 is on the way.  I am not even sure that South Louisiana deserves a Zone 9a rating.  A few year ago, we had a low of 16.  Last 15 years has been a real bitch down here.  And remember, one or two nights of Zone 7b can wipe out a year of Zone 9a

At this point, I am starting to feel the same for the entire northern Gulf Coast.

In fact, I might go as far as to say that peninsular Florida might be the only area in the Eastern US that "deserves" its respective USDA ratings. 

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Houston is looking at 17/18 degrees.  Will kill whatever tropical is left there after just 2 years ago.  

  • Like 4

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unlike Florida, how come alligators survive there?

  • Like 2

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Unlike Florida, how come alligators survive there?

They go underwater where it is warmer

  • Like 2

Brevard County, Fl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW - a few stations in extreme SE Louisiana stayed at-or-above freezing when the rest of the state and most areas around the Northern Gulf Coast dipped far below freezing. 

image.png.bff4d55148909b1b89aca06d4bcb9119.png

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Unlike Florida, how come alligators survive there?

They have their own version of hibernation called brumation. I believe I was once told that our largest gator population is actually in the northern half of the state. It’s believed Louisiana has even more than Florida, although it’s difficult to measure. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Unlike Florida, how come alligators survive there?

Alligators survive as far north as northeastern North Carolina thanks to brumation. Even McCurtain County, Oklahoma (the same county with the native Sabal minors) has a native alligator population. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
Added more text
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

PalmTreeDude

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Alligators survive as far north as northeastern North Carolina thanks to brumation. Even McCurtain County, Oklahoma (the same county with the native Sabal minors) has a native alligator population. 

But how? 

  • Like 1

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ShadowNight030 said:

They have their own version of hibernation called brumation. I believe I was once told that our largest gator population is actually in the northern half of the state. It’s believed Louisiana has even more than Florida, although it’s difficult to measure. 

Thank you

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

FWIW - a few stations in extreme SE Louisiana stayed at-or-above freezing when the rest of the state and most areas around the Northern Gulf Coast dipped far below freezing. 

image.png.bff4d55148909b1b89aca06d4bcb9119.png

How can that one spot along the lower part of the river be 4F WARMER than the next reading near the mouth of the river further to the south?

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Alligators survive as far north as northeastern North Carolina thanks to brumation. Even McCurtain County, Oklahoma (the same county with the native Sabal minors) has a native alligator population. 

What exactly is brumation?

John

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2022 at 4:16 PM, ShadowNight030 said:

They have their own version of hibernation called brumation. I believe I was once told that our largest gator population is actually in the northern half of the state. It’s believed Louisiana has even more than Florida, although it’s difficult to measure. 

We have one hell of a lot of them I can tell you, but we had a warm early winter.  Even with those several days of low 20s in a row, not rising above freezing during the day, my neighbor's 12 foot deep pond only had a about a 2 inch wide 1/4" thick sheet of ice around the edges.

  • Like 1

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/24/2022 at 12:20 AM, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

What exactly is brumation?

John

A version of "hibernation" undergone by reptiles and other "cold-blooded" (ectotherm) organisms. They slow down activity, and become sluggish, hide in burrows, etc when the weather becomes too cool. Some alligators can even survive ice-covered waterways using these tactics.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, __nevii said:

A version of "hibernation" undergone by reptiles and other "cold-blooded" (ectotherm) organisms. They slow down activity, and become sluggish, hide in burrows, etc when the weather becomes too cool. Some alligators can even survive ice-covered waterways using these tactics.

Thank you.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, __nevii said:

A version of "hibernation" undergone by reptiles and other "cold-blooded" (ectotherm) organisms. They slow down activity, and become sluggish, hide in burrows, etc when the weather becomes too cool. Some alligators can even survive ice-covered waterways using these tactics.

Don't some alligators in the colder parts of their range, actually burrow into the mud and hibernate, or brumate there during the coldest months?

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...