Filifera Update 3.5 years old

[SailorBold]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016‎ ‎1‎:‎02‎:‎50‎, jwitt said:

Will do Jimmy. Give me 3 weeks or so. Trapped in Maui.

Looking forward to it !

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Ok here are pictures of 100% filifera.  I now have over 10,000 of them growing and I know exactly where the seeds were obtained in the wild.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Here is the difference between identically sized Robusta and Filifera petiole  I will also take a picture of the filbustra that I have as well.

[cm05]

On July 21, 2016 at 8:59:36 PM, Brad Mondel said:

Has anyone noticed the teeth that appear on the outer leaflet of young Washingtonias? Does your Filifera carry this trait? 

Both of my hybrids have that, but they're very small, however my palms are small.

I initially thought my palms were mostly robusta, but looking at this thread I'm thinking they have more filifera in them than I previously thought.

Edited July 26, 2016 by cm05

[Axel Amsterdam]

Nice to see all these filifera seedlings and the bigger plants.

 

For me THE most obvious way to distinguish filifera is how deep the fronds are cut. I have never seen robusta with deeply divided fronds. 

The fronds should be cut at least half way or beypnd. Robusta have larger plain green with shorter leaftips imo.

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

I picked this one from under a group of true filifera's in Spain. The one next to it is grown from seed. They were purple brown before but that completely disappeared after planting out. The fronds are deeply cut, but i think slightly less deep than the filifera's shown above. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Filbustra pics, note the frond divides and lack of tomentum on top of frond. I hvent seen a single robusta or hybrid with these two characteristics.  Note these are NOT f1 hybrids, just filbustra hybrids from riverwalk specimens in San Antonio. I have no way of knowing for sure how much of each species are mixed in. The petioles look filifera, while the fronds look very robusta.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Second pic

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Note that the larger filifera a few posts up survived 2013 winter when just a strap leaf seedling. A larger 3g size filbustra on the other side of the road died that year. 

There was a larger filifera in front of it but a semi truck drove 3 tires over top of it and killed it a few months ago. It too survived 2013 winter, all conpletely unprotected. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

3 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I picked this one from under a group of true filifera's in Spain. The one next to it is grown from seed. They were purple brown before but that completely disappeared after planting out. The fronds are deeply cut, but i think slightly less deep than the filifera's shown above. 

 

Amazingly enough every filifera that i measured today from 1g to 10' tall were cut 52-57% of the way down the frond. 

[Brad Mondel]

So filibusta doesn't have threads on the top like filifera? or is that just this particular palm?

[Axel Amsterdam]

1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Amazingly enough every filifera that i measured today from 1g to 10' tall were cut 52-57% of the way down the frond. 

That to me is the ultimate filifera test. Filifera is cut beyond 50%. Robusta or hybrids are always cut above 50%. It's probably the most reliable way to tell them apart. Combined with grey green colour fronds, no purple on petioles, no teeth or small teeth but no brown large hooks, and longer hairs on frond tips. 

 

Thanks for the pictures, very helpful. Also i take it the seedlings show no hint of brown/purple on the petioles?  

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

20 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thanks for the pictures, very helpful. Also i take it the seedlings show no hint of brown/purple on the petioles?  

Not 100% of the straplings are pure green/yellowish.  A few percent will have a hint of brown and a smaller amount will have red/purple streaks. However they lose all of that color by the 4-5th frond.  I have done a few tests and based on that information Filifera is one of the few palms that I grow in 100% sun (let alone will live here in 100% sun) right from the start instead of under shade cloth. (Sabal uresana is another, but mostly for color)  A higher percentage of 100% sun grown seedlings will exhibit more brown, but it appears that it is due to the fact that they are more compact and the fatter trunk rips even the first petiole causing it to brown at the bottom and sides.  By the time they start to trunk I think the extreme pressure of the expanding trunk causes the sides of the petiole base to die and brown as well as the middle where they rip in half.

You can see the red/purple streaks in the large filbustra petiole picture, but are nowhere near as pronounced as robusta.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is the full frond of my 'filifera'. I hope it will turn out to be the real thing, the cuts of the leaflets seem pretty deep, past the 50 per cent mark

[ChrisA]

Coming along great Jimmy!  What part of Albuquerque/Rio Rancho are you in? And is that a pink Oleander, Trichocereus, and Butia in the background?

 

I love to see all those comparisons of robusta, filibusta, and filifera!  I have seen my palm with the split leaf in the middle, always thought it was the wind that caused it.  I've got to get back to TorC again soon, that's a nice place to get stock from. I don't thing pure Robusta does well at all there, although there were some large ones planted on the golf course back in the mid to late 90's if I remember.  Those all died a quick death as they were not treated too well, so it makes it unlikely that seed grown in T or C would be mixed with robusta, unless the parent trees were a hybrid. Can't say the same for Las Cruces.

[SailorBold]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2016‎ ‎11‎:‎45‎:‎03‎, ChrisA said:

Coming along great Jimmy!  What part of Albuquerque/Rio Rancho are you in? And is that a pink Oleander, Trichocereus, and Butia in the background?

 

I love to see all those comparisons of robusta, filibusta, and filifera!  I have seen my palm with the split leaf in the middle, always thought it was the wind that caused it.  I've got to get back to TorC again soon, that's a nice place to get stock from. I don't thing pure Robusta does well at all there, although there were some large ones planted on the golf course back in the mid to late 90's if I remember.  Those all died a quick death as they were not treated too well, so it makes it unlikely that seed grown in T or C would be mixed with robusta, unless the parent trees were a hybrid. Can't say the same for Las Cruces.

Thanks.. off to a good start.  I'm in the Corrales Heights area.  The Butia is a Jubaea hybrid..I'm pretty sure that's a tricho.. it didn't have a label on it when I purchased it.. and that's a crepe myrtle.

Such a confusing matter those Washingtonia..  for being 'Just a Palm'...  I find it interesting as well.  The split leaf is showing up on all of my TorC filifera.. another thing to note.. is the leaflet is slightly shorter as well.  Its neat.  I cant say I have noticed it before..on any supposed filifera.  I have noticed the "wind split" of the leaflets as well but this is before that shows up and is present after the leaf opens.  It is a deeper split than the other leaflets also as the palm frond grows out.  I have never seen those palms before in person.. so I am unsure of its location.. or its proximity to other palms. I am not sure if robusta seeds there or not.  They appear to be distinct from other filifera.

[SailorBold]

 

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2016‎ ‎1‎:‎25‎:‎35‎, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Amazingly enough every filifera that i measured today from 1g to 10' tall were cut 52-57% of the way down the frond. 

Interesting observations...  May I ask where your seed source is located?

[SailorBold]

Here are a couple pics of the shorter middle leaflet..

[Las Palmas Norte]

Here's a small one I have believed to be a filibusta. It does exhibit the characteristics of what folks here have noted as W. filifera ... regardless I have my doubts. This based on seed sourced from a curious vacationer and passed on to me.

Cheers, Barrie.

 

[Ben in Norcal]

8 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Here's a small one I have believed to be a filibusta. It does exhibit the characteristics of what folks here have noted as W. filifera ... regardless I have my doubts. This based on seed sourced from a curious vacationer and passed on to me.

Cheers, Barrie.

 

Very green petioles - I would have guessed filifera.  But regardless, a stunning looking plant...esp for a Washingtonia!

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is my filibusta. It grows very fast despite very cool temps

[SailorBold]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2016‎ ‎10‎:‎57‎:‎58‎, Las Palmas Norte said:

Here's a small one I have believed to be a filibusta. It does exhibit the characteristics of what folks here have noted as W. filifera ... regardless I have my doubts. This based on seed sourced from a curious vacationer and passed on to me.

Cheers, Barrie.

 

 

 

 

You are correct in having your doubts.. !!    Geez.     Your palm is looking great... and with the extra fibers that points to filifera for sure...  It might not be such a big deal.. but for people in a marginal climate like mine.. need those characteristics.  I have come to the conclusion that a filifera is somewhat a rare thing..especially in nursery trades.

[Axel Amsterdam]

I have planted seeds from a large filibusta left and genuine filifera on the right of this large pot. The filibusta 's germinate easier at lower temps inside the house. Filifera s seem to need more heat.

[PalmTreeDude]

Don't filifera have a blueish tint to them?

[Jdiaz31089]

1 hour ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Don't filifera have a blueish tint to them?

I wouldn't call it blue. It's just a dull green, which is augmented by the white filaments which give it a messy look and makes it look more even more dull from afar. Robusta is vibrant green in color. 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

This is the best example of the difference between filifera and filbustra. My brother mixed in a lone hybrid by accident into this group of filifera. We identified it a few months before the first cold snap (44 hours straight below freezing and two night at 16f), but now it is blatantly obvious. This pic was taken around Christmas after a week of 70+degree days. The hybrid immediately spear pulled and is 100% dead.  

[Axel Amsterdam]

Joseph, would you rate filifera hardiness in the ranks of brahea armata or hardier? 

[Zeeth]

That's one way to identify a pure filfera...

[Jimhardy]

Thats some great growth...

 

Thanks for taking the trunk picture,

this helps illustrate the difference in Filifera and Robusta/hybrids..

Another feature is the Filifera have much less

glossy leaves,almost a flat/matte finish whereas

Robusta and hybrids(to some degree)are much more

glossy and green.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

To answer Axels question - When 15G or smaller Armata appears to be hardier, in regards to both leaf and overall survival.  However as they age and start to trunk they seem to be very close. As with all plants there is variation in each species (some filifera will burn more than others, the whitest armatas don't show burn as easily as the greener ones, etc..)   I have a customer in Amarillo that is going to plant Filifera and already has an Armata in the ground.  We should see for sure where these two amazing palms rank in relation to each other in the next few years.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Thanks, I have an armata in the ground going through its first winter. It has been mild so far, the fronds of my filibusta havent been burned yet. Im doing an experiment by putting a bit of salt in the space around the emerging Spears of the armata to prevent spear loss from frozen water. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

I did some more study on the differnces between robusta and filifera. Filifera's fronds follow the direction of the petiole in a straight line. They dont bend like robusta and start hanging over. Only when the older fronds are becoming more horizontal. This seems a result of the long hastula that keeps the mid rib more straight and gives the fronds a more pointy look, more diamond shaped like armata. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

The small filifera's have survived the Amsterdam winter, not too cold (-6C/-7C) but with long periods of cool weather and snow laying around for many days. They were only protected in the coldest weather by a small bucket. It wasn't big enough to close completely so these plants are tough.

 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Ten 3gallon sized filifera in the ground saw -11celsius (12f) this year totally unprotected. Only one died and all but two completely defoliated.  All filbustra or robustra with less than 2' of trunk in the area died.  

[Brad Mondel]

My young filifera saw 14F this past winter and did great. I kept it on the porch with an overhang so it would stay dry though. My robustas in the ground completely defoliated but they're growing back quickly. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is the filibuster I posted before. Its still fairly small but has long petioles and the fronds are becoming really large 

[Axel Amsterdam]

For a trunk that small these fronds appear huge, each one is larger than the last

[sonoranfans]

I have heard that copper color dead leaf bases are an indication of robusta blood.  All the "pure" filiferas I have seen have grey dead leafbases.  As with all hybrids, some will lean more to one species or the other.  You can get some very cold tolerant filibustas, if the genes for cold hardiness are dominated by the filifera parent.  I have seen plenty of hybrids with the hair, that is not definitive.  The color of a pure filifera is grey green in the leaves but that was in arizona heat with low humidity.  I think they grow more wax on the leaves in the dry heat to limit water loss, like some other palms. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

 

Interesting, I found habitat pictures of young filifera growing under the elderly. The young palms are still glossy and They become more matt green after trunking and probably growing in the sun.

 

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/22563-northernmost-native-washingtonia-filifera-grove/

Edited July 21, 2017 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

You can see it quite well in this pic from the thread