Why people dont like Palms?

[Ben in Norcal]

9 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I honestly do hate a handful of plants, and absolutely hate deciduous trees. I think my hatred, however unfair, stems from the large chunk of my life I was forced to live in Stockton, CA. That place is a hell-hole for SO many reasons, but the worst one, in my mind, is the inability of the locals to appreciate the moderate climate fully. Yes, there are tons of big citrus trees and loquats all over the town, and CIDPs and both types of Washingtonias are exceedingly common. But most folks there claim they love fall colors, and whole neighborhoods (including both neighborhoods in which I lived as a kid) are planted with massive deciduous trees by the city. These trees are not native; they are water hogs; they aren't exceptionally beautiful (e.g. they don't have the future majesty of the native valley oaks); and all they do is drop a crap-ton of leaves each fall after a few weeks of half-hearted fall colors. Those crappy leaves have to be raked, obviously, and guess which little kid with allergies got to go out in the damp 50-degree weather and rake those damned things each year? Hint: he had my name ;-) 

If raking leaves isn't bad enough, the look of all those dead branches couldn't be more depressing in a 9a-9b climate where EVERYTHING could just as easily be evergreen. The first 100 years in Stockton, residents were totally different in their outlook. My grandfather built the house where my mother still lives in 1948. He had been raised at above 6,000' in the Rockies, so he thought of Stockton as a botanic heaven. He planted oranges, grapefruit, lemon, loquat, redwoods, eucalyptus, oleander, geraniums, and pomegranate. If you look at the old paintings of town or visit the oldest neighborhoods (a VERY dangerous undertaking), you'll see columnar Washingtonia filifera plantings, southern magnolias, large citrus trees, yuccas, agaves, cacti, CIDPs, redwoods, not a few bunya-bunya (or similar) pines. The city is the one that decided it wanted to look like a midwestern town in the middle of CA, and I don't believe there has been a new city neighborhood with palms for street trees in the last hundred years :-(

So, yeah, I hate certain plants, but I suppose I could forgive them if they weren't being used where they're not needed :-) 

This is the exact thing that frustrates me.  Planting in a totally climate inappropriate fashion, and then being judgmental about palms being "non-native!"

[Yunder Wækraus]

4 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

This is the exact thing that frustrates me.  Planting in a totally climate inappropriate fashion, and then being judgmental about palms being "non-native!"

Scroll around this old Stockton, CA neighborhood, which was planted with palms about 100 years ago (perhaps a little less or a little more): https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+Harding+Way,+Stockton,+CA/@37.9634661,-121.3082311,3a,75y,175.21h,75.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slGGc4EKAvQ7VHTveE1J9fw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DlGGc4EKAvQ7VHTveE1J9fw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D273.42093%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x80900d9c8f47e6fd:0xa7b8bbd655a33542

The above was photographed by Google in April, and spring starts in Stockton in late February (that's when the almond trees always blossomed in our yard)

Now compare the above neighborhood with its massive palms, which beautify the street without depriving it of CA's famous sunshine, with this newer Stockton, CA neighborhood (built between the 1950s and 1970s), which, honestly, might as well be in Carson City, Nevada: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0187942,-121.343493,3a,75y,352.28h,82.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sufzrQSrprWjDl9jN4x39UA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Note that ALL of those trees will drop their leaves and look lifeless for at least all of Dec and January and, if I recall correctly, most of November and February at the very least.

None of the trees you see in either street view is native. And none is especially drought tolerant. And only the deciduous ones will snake up your plumbing (a yearly problem for my mother) and raise the sidewalk (something that costs the city millions over the years to rectify and the bane of all young skateboarders!)

And lest you think I'm being hyperbolic in my comparison of newer Stockton, CA neighborhoods to Carson City, Nevada, where NO palms grow, check out this street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1651066,-119.7599509,3a,75y,20.38h,94.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssPv7Ymgrd79J9v1spFoSPA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

They're clearly different places, but not in lushness. 

[smithgn]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎00‎:‎25‎, Moose said:

This question has been perplexing to me for decades.

Here are some thoughts ...

A. Like you have mentioned above, people's impressions on palms are limited to those they know and are usually over planted.

B. Most people's thoughts and bias towards palms are well imbedded.

C. People are unaware of the plethora of species that can be planted in their USDA zone

D. Lack of mature specimen palms in landscapes so their true potential can be seen

E. Some folks simply love their bland expanse of lawn.

F. There are many folks whose experience with landscaping material is limited to the big box stores.

G. Monkey see monkey do, there are many people that look to see what the neighbor's have planted so they follow suite.

H. Some people simply don't care about plants.

I. Others are just ignorant and will remain so.

J. The best way to alter other people's thinking concerning palms is to walk the walk. Grow you palms to the best of your ability. Then be ready to provide info to any and all of those who inquire when they see the beauty that palms can add to a landscape.

You are dead on with this.  The monkey see monkey do reaction can sometimes work in our favor. Which is why we should plant continue to plant palms. In my neighborhood, there are a row of 4 houses in succession that have each installed a pair of palmettos over the past 3 years. I figure one neighbor saw the palmettos and he planted 2, so on and so forth...That's all we can do as palm nuts to try to get the word out on what cool stuff you can plant in your climate.

 

34 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I honestly do hate a handful of plants, and absolutely hate deciduous trees. I think my hatred, however unfair, stems from the large chunk of my life I was forced to live in Stockton, CA. That place is a hell-hole for SO many reasons, but the worst one, in my mind, is the inability of the locals to appreciate the moderate climate fully. Yes, there are tons of big citrus trees and loquats all over the town, and CIDPs and both types of Washingtonias are exceedingly common. But most folks there claim they love fall colors, and whole neighborhoods (including both neighborhoods in which I lived as a kid) are planted with massive deciduous trees by the city. These trees are not native; they are water hogs; they aren't exceptionally beautiful (e.g. they don't have the future majesty of the native valley oaks); and all they do is drop a crap-ton of leaves each fall after a few weeks of half-hearted fall colors. Those crappy leaves have to be raked, obviously, and guess which little kid with allergies got to go out in the damp 50-degree weather and rake those damned things each year? Hint: he had my name ;-) 

If raking leaves isn't bad enough, the look of all those dead branches couldn't be more depressing in a 9a-9b climate where EVERYTHING could just as easily be evergreen. The first 100 years in Stockton, residents were totally different in their outlook. My grandfather built the house where my mother still lives in 1948. He had been raised at above 6,000' in the Rockies, so he thought of Stockton as a botanic heaven. He planted oranges, grapefruit, lemon, loquat, redwoods, eucalyptus, oleander, geraniums, and pomegranate. If you look at the old paintings of town or visit the oldest neighborhoods (a VERY dangerous undertaking), you'll see columnar Washingtonia filifera plantings, southern magnolias, large citrus trees, yuccas, agaves, cacti, CIDPs, redwoods, not a few bunya-bunya (or similar) pines. The city is the one that decided it wanted to look like a midwestern town in the middle of CA, and I don't believe there has been a new city neighborhood with palms for street trees in the last hundred years :-(

So, yeah, I hate certain plants, but I suppose I could forgive them if they weren't being used where they're not needed :-) 

I thought I was the oddball who hated deciduous trees as well. I've had my days raking leaves, of course, but the main thing I don't understand are the generic planting of non-native deciduous trees in office and new housing developments. I'd say about 40-50% of the trees  that        naturaly occur in the midlands of South Carolina are deciduous, depending on which specific ecoregion you're in, so they're a part of the scenery here. So I suppose I don't mind it if native deciduous trees that are planted, yet I still don't like them

As for the non-native deciduous trees that are planted in housing and office developments, they are small, spindly and mostly sickly looking even during the growing season

. I know these companies are just trying to save a buck, by planting the most generic tree possible, but the thing is, people continue to plant these. Probably because they assume it's native! It astounds me that these people can plant a native, evergreen tree in their yard. Despite   Sabal Palmettos not naturally occurring in the midlands of South Carolina, they still survive here no problem.

I think you have a very valid point about such a great climate that even Mid-Northern California has, yet they still choose to plant temperate  deciduous trees. You have much more reason to complain than I do and I can totally understand your frustration with that. Slowly but surely   people may learn, but the best thing we can do is continue to   display in our yards what is able to be grown and hopefully people will want to mimic that.

Edited January 3, 2016 by smithgn

[Yunder Wækraus]

12 minutes ago, smithgn said:

You are dead on with this.  The monkey see monkey do reaction can sometimes work in our favor. Which is why we should plant continue to plant palms. In my neighborhood, there are a row of 4 houses in succession that have each installed a pair of palmettos over the past 3 years. I figure one neighbor saw the palmettos and he planted 2, so on and so forth...That's all we can do as palm nuts to try to get the word out on what cool stuff you can plant in your climate.

 

I thought I was the oddball who hated deciduous trees as well. I've had my days raking leaves, of course, but the main thing I don't understand are the generic planting of non-native deciduous trees in office and new housing developments. I'd say about 40-50% of the trees  that        naturaly occur in the midlands of South Carolina are deciduous, depending on which specific ecoregion you're in, so they're a part of the scenery here. So I suppose I don't mind it if native deciduous trees that are planted, yet I still don't like them

As for the non-native deciduous trees that are planted in housing and office developments, they are small, spindly and mostly sickly looking even during the growing season

. I know these companies are just trying to save a buck, by planting the most generic tree possible, but the thing is, people continue to plant these. Probably because they assume it's native! It astounds me that these people can plant a native, evergreen tree in their yard. Despite   Sabal Palmettos not naturally occurring in the midlands of South Carolina, they still survive here no problem.

I think you have a very valid point about such a great climate that even Mid-Northern California has, yet they still choose to plant temperate  deciduous trees. You have much more reason to complain than I do and I can totally understand your frustration with that. Slowly but surely   people may learn, but the best thing we can do is continue to   display in our yards what is able to be grown and hopefully people will want to mimic that.

Thank goodness I'm back in Florida! I was tired of extolling palms to NorCal folks, and they were tired of my extolling palms to them :-)

[John Case]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2016‎ ‎9‎:‎58‎:‎46‎, Yunder Wækraus said:

I honestly do hate a handful of plants, and absolutely hate deciduous trees. I think my hatred, however unfair, stems from the large chunk of my life I was forced to live in Stockton, CA. That place is a hell-hole for SO many reasons, but the worst one, in my mind, is the inability of the locals to appreciate the moderate climate fully. Yes, there are tons of big citrus trees and loquats all over the town, and CIDPs and both types of Washingtonias are exceedingly common. But most folks there claim they love fall colors, and whole neighborhoods (including both neighborhoods in which I lived as a kid) are planted with massive deciduous trees by the city. These trees are not native; they are water hogs; they aren't exceptionally beautiful (e.g. they don't have the future majesty of the native valley oaks); and all they do is drop a crap-ton of leaves each fall after a few weeks of half-hearted fall colors. Those crappy leaves have to be raked, obviously, and guess which little kid with allergies got to go out in the damp 50-degree weather and rake those damned things each year? Hint: he had my name ;-) 

If raking leaves isn't bad enough, the look of all those dead branches couldn't be more depressing in a 9a-9b climate where EVERYTHING could just as easily be evergreen. The first 100 years in Stockton, residents were totally different in their outlook. My grandfather built the house where my mother still lives in 1948. He had been raised at above 6,000' in the Rockies, so he thought of Stockton as a botanic heaven. He planted oranges, grapefruit, lemon, loquat, redwoods, eucalyptus, oleander, geraniums, and pomegranate. If you look at the old paintings of town or visit the oldest neighborhoods (a VERY dangerous undertaking), you'll see columnar Washingtonia filifera plantings, southern magnolias, large citrus trees, yuccas, agaves, cacti, CIDPs, redwoods, not a few bunya-bunya (or similar) pines. The city is the one that decided it wanted to look like a midwestern town in the middle of CA, and I don't believe there has been a new city neighborhood with palms for street trees in the last hundred years :-(

So, yeah, I hate certain plants, but I suppose I could forgive them if they weren't being used where they're not needed :-) 

I use the leaves in the neighborhood as part of my compost mix (nothing better than oak leaf mold, so I cannot say that I hate them. I am with many others that think that inappropriate planting of trees (or any other plant for that matter) are a pestilence on the neighborhood. The biggest issue have in this respect here is the grouped plantings of Queens. After a heavy rain and the following big wind we get afterward, at least one of these plantings is uprooted, sometimes into the street, sometimes across the yards but so far not yet onto the rooftops of the homes. The root structure is compromised by the closeness of the trees and the canopies are big enough to provide enough lift to carry a 747 from here to Sacramento. No one yet hurt, but it is inevitable. I do not hate the Queen palm but I do not have one in my yard. I see many around the house and keep a watchful eye.