S. FL palms in habitat and around family home

[Yunder Wækraus]

We took a trip to South Bay, FL and Everglades Nat Park. (We saw two gators in South Bay and two huge crocs in Flamingo--not bad for on day, eh?) I fell in love with the Everglades palm stands in the mahogany hammock. I tried to get pix of sabals and Everglades palms together.

[Yunder Wækraus]

More pics

[Yunder Wækraus]

More pics--croc!!!!

[Yunder Wækraus]

And South Bay pics

[Zeeth]

Pretty cool! I've never actually seen everglades palm in habitat before. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

12 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Pretty cool! I've never actually seen everglades palm in habitat before. 

Yeah, I only saw them in habitat for the first time last December, and I fell in love. They look so much more tropical than I realized they would. I did an informal study with my odometer, and it seems to me that these guys do not exist more than 20 miles north of Flamingo. Soil and elevation cannot adequately explain this minuscule distribution in native habitat, and I think this is evidence for MUCH more sever cold spells in the past. Last year, I only saw them in habitat from the side of the road. There are none growing within the royal palm hammock closer the southernmost park entrance. This time, I really wanted to visit the mahogany hammock, which is much closer to Flamingo and is an island hammock surrounded by shallow Everglades water on all sides. I was stunned to see that Everglades palms grew in dense stands all throughout the hammock. Some of them had 30' of trunk (or near to it). I don't know whether thatch palms grow in habitat in the park. I thought I saw one, but then I figured I had imagined it (I was driving 55 mph). Royal palms will always be my favorite palm (in habitat and in civilization), but the Everglades palm is so much neater in the wild than folks realize. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Those are great photos of native habitat.  I love the Florida Royals and Paurotis too.  I have a Florida Royal and a little Paurotis that is starting to cluster in my backyard, but they don't get nearly as large here in Corpus Christi as they do there.  Here a royal palm maxes out at about 40 to 45ft. tall to the top of the crown, and the largest cluster of Paurotis (Everglades Palm) I have seen is about 18 to 20ft. tall in overall height.  The Paurotis do really well here, so I don't understand why most of the local nurseries don't carry them.

By the way, when I lived in Coral Springs and went to Tampa once by way of South Bay, I noticed that the larges most robust and really healthy looking Florida Royal Palms and Jamaican Tall coconut palms I had ever seen in Florida were around South Bay.  The royals there must have been about 110ft. tall and the Jamaican Tall coconuts had to be 80 to 90ft. tall there and VERY healthy looking.

You were very lucky to see some crocs.  They are extremely rare now.  I wish I could have seen some when I lived down there.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I also like the photos of the Areca Palms (Dypsis).  Here, they only get to be about 10ft. tall.

[Jimbean]

In fact, I have actually seen royals in habitat further north than where the paurotis palms are.  I don't think it is from temperature that limits their habitat, I think it is soil and general ecological conditions (such as the type of tree canopy) that restricts their habitat in Florida. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Those are great photos of native habitat.  I love the Florida Royals and Paurotis too.  I have a Florida Royal and a little Paurotis that is starting to cluster in my backyard, but they don't get nearly as large here in Corpus Christi as they do there.  Here a royal palm maxes out at about 40 to 45ft. tall to the top of the crown, and the largest cluster of Paurotis (Everglades Palm) I have seen is about 18 to 20ft. tall in overall height.  The Paurotis do really well here, so I don't understand why most of the local nurseries don't carry them.

By the way, when I lived in Coral Springs and went to Tampa once by way of South Bay, I noticed that the larges most robust and really healthy looking Florida Royal Palms and Jamaican Tall coconut palms I had ever seen in Florida were around South Bay.  The royals there must have been about 110ft. tall and the Jamaican Tall coconuts had to be 80 to 90ft. tall there and VERY healthy looking.

You were very lucky to see some crocs.  They are extremely rare now.  I wish I could have seen some when I lived down there.

That muck soil is amazing, isn't it?

[Yunder Wækraus]

23 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

In fact, I have actually seen royals in habitat further north than where the paurotis palms are.  I don't think it is from temperature that limits their habitat, I think it is soil and general ecological conditions (such as the type of tree canopy) that restricts their habitat in Florida. 

I wonder. I don't believe there is anything different about the soil (or lack thereof) between 21 miles north of Flamingo and 20 miles north. I could be wrong, but something else might be at play. I'd love to know more.

[Dmcdonald]

I have some pictures of Paurotis growing a few miles off the road along 9 mile pond canoe trail. I will go through my pictures and see what I can find

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

24 minutes ago, Dmcdonald said:

I have some pictures of Paurotis growing a few miles off the road along 9 mile pond canoe trail. I will go through my pictures and see what I can find

 

I think that's only about 10 miles north of Flamingo, so I would expect them there.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Jim,

I think you are right, since Paurotis do just fine in distinctly 9B parts of Corpus Christi. Betrock's Landscape Palms shows them to be hardy to 9A climates.

 

Alex,

I figured it had to be that rich muck soil that makes the royals and coconuts grow like they are on steroids.  They truly are the most robust and healthy specimens I have seen, and those coconuts look even better than a lot of them in the Keys do. 

As far as the distribution of the Paurotis is concerned, this is what Betrock's says about them in Florida, "The paurotis palm is a distinctive part of the Florida Everglades flora where it frequently forms dense stands at the border of tree islands.  It is one of the few cultivated palms that will tolerate poorly drained sites in the landscape.  It prefers relatively moist soils; on drier soils growth will be particularly slow."  Apparently they don't like the pineland ridges, so maybe this info helps.

 

[Jimbean]

According to Wikipedia, Acoelorrhaphe wrightii used to be more plentiful throughout Florida but were over harvested.  Also, I would like to see the kind of habitat that they grow in in Central America, that also might provide clues to their range in Florida.

[Jimbean]

I believe that they are particular about soil since some kind of root rot or mineral deficiency is not uncommon in this species.  Combined with their slow growth, I'll bet that is what limits their native distribution.

[Zeeth]

6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Jim,

I think you are right, since Paurotis do just fine in distinctly 9B parts of Corpus Christi. Betrock's Landscape Palms shows them to be hardy to 9A climates.

 

Alex,

I figured it had to be that rich muck soil that makes the royals and coconuts grow like they are on steroids.  They truly are the most robust and healthy specimens I have seen, and those coconuts look even better than a lot of them in the Keys do. 

As far as the distribution of the Paurotis is concerned, this is what Betrock's says about them in Florida, "The paurotis palm is a distinctive part of the Florida Everglades flora where it frequently forms dense stands at the border of tree islands.  It is one of the few cultivated palms that will tolerate poorly drained sites in the landscape.  It prefers relatively moist soils; on drier soils growth will be particularly slow."  Apparently they don't like the pineland ridges, so maybe this info helps.

 

 

This Jamaican tall in Pahokee is impressive, it's something I definitely want to see in person eventually.

 

https://goo.gl/IiQzbK

 

 

[Ed in Houston]

10 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Those are great photos of native habitat.  I love the Florida Royals and Paurotis too.  I have a Florida Royal and a little Paurotis that is starting to cluster in my backyard, but they don't get nearly as large here in Corpus Christi as they do there.  Here a royal palm maxes out at about 40 to 45ft. tall to the top of the crown, and the largest cluster of Paurotis (Everglades Palm) I have seen is about 18 to 20ft. tall in overall height.  The Paurotis do really well here, so I don't understand why most of the local nurseries don't carry them.

 

The Paurotis does well in Houston also. My clump is about 7 feet tall. There is a clump that was commercially planted a few mile away at an apartment complex that is 15-20 feet tall. Even though they do well in Houston, I have not seen any for sale locally and are rarely seen here. I purchased a small plant from Floribunda about 10-12 years ago and also purchased 3 seedlings last year. The clumps have seen low 20s with no damage.

Ed in Houston

[Yunder Wækraus]

There is little question that this palm should have been found farther north on the basis of its cold hardiness and soil preferences. So the real question is why it was (and is) restricted to 10b habitat. 

[Zeeth]

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

There is little question that this palm should have been found farther north on the basis of its cold hardiness and soil preferences. So the real question is why it was (and is) restricted to 10b habitat. 

Leucothrinax morrissii is another good example. It's a 9b palm, about as hardy as the everglades palm, but is only found in 11a locations in Florida. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Keith,

That is a really impressive Jamaican Tall, especially for inland South Florida, but as I recall in South Bay back in 2000 or 2001 when I went through that area they were fairly numerous and at least that tall, but with even more robust crowns on them.

 

Ed,

I got mine from a nursery on the southwest side of Houston, I think in Ft. Bend County.  I forget the name of the nursery.  It was about a year and a half ago, and we had a Palm Society of South Texas meeting there.  Unfortunately, it was VERY PRICEY, something like $40 or $45 for a 2 or 3 gal. size pot.  I have a friend who manages a wholesale nursery east of Harlingen in the Rio Grande Valley, and he told me the Paurotis I bought was WAY OVERPRICED, especially for such a small size.  There are nurseries in the Rio Grande Valley that carry them, but unfortunately they only seem to carry the larger sized pots and field grown ones to sell to the landscapers.  I have yet to find any source for them in South Texas in 2 to 5 gal. sizes.

[Jimbean]

3 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Leucothrinax morrissii is another good example. It's a 9b palm, about as hardy as the everglades palm, but is only found in 11a locations in Florida. 

Again, I believe that is a result of its slow growth and possible soil requirements. 

I wish I had the means of testing my hypotheses.

[Zeeth]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

That is a really impressive Jamaican Tall, especially for inland South Florida, but as I recall in South Bay back in 2000 or 2001 when I went through that area they were fairly numerous and at least that tall, but with even more robust crowns on them.

 

 

 

That picture is right after the winter of 2010, so I would imagine that it looks much nicer now. Here's how it looked right before the freeze.

https://goo.gl/OJPD9f

[Zeeth]

1 minute ago, Jimbean said:

Again, I believe that is a result of its slow growth and possible soil requirements. 

I wish I had the means of testing my hypotheses.

I could see it as being slow growth, but the soil on the barrier islands in Central Florida is pretty similar to the soil in Bahia Honda (sand). There is a significant freshwater lens in many of the keys, so that might be involved. 

I spread a few hundred L. morrissii seeds around the beach areas of Emerson Point Preserve a while back, so I suppose if any of them end up growing that might test the hypothesis. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Keith,

NICE.  Considering it went through the 2010 winter and still looked as good as it did in the first photo, I would love to have some viable nuts off of it.  I love the way the Jamaicans curve.  Look at the curve on the one to the right in the second photo!

[Jimbean]

I've noticed that soil on top of the limestone and the soil around the south end of the Everglades is made of richer, decomposed matter. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

It's like Alex said above, it's that muck soil that REALLY makes a difference.  It has it's own effect on plants like the rich volcanic soil has on plants in Hawaii.  An interesting side note about the VERY HEALTY AND HUGE Jamaican Tall coconut palms I saw in the South Bay area back in 2000 or 2001, was that NONE of them appeared to be suffering from Lethal Yellowing, and just passing through town, I don't recall seeing any dead trunks of any that looked like they might have succumbed to it previously.  Therefore, it would be interesting if the Jamaican Talls there have natural immunity to the disease, in which case getting viable nuts from them would be great, or if there is something in the rich soil there that gives them an immunity to the disease over time.

[Jimbean]

We already know that better nutrition makes stronger, faster growing plants.  Whenever we grow something in cultivation, we take for granted that there is a lack of competition in its surrounding environment with regard to its nutritional requirements and growth rate.  I think Acoelorrhaphe wrightii is a great example of this.  How many times have anyone seen that species get frizzle top or root rot, despite being in cultivation?  Even if a plant did survive further away from its habitat, you have to take into consideration if there is enough cross pollination to start another population.  I think the simple fact is, the slower a plant grows and reproduces, the harder it is to naturalize. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

We already know that better nutrition makes stronger, faster growing plants.  Whenever we grow something in cultivation, we take for granted that there is a lack of competition in its surrounding environment with regard to its nutritional requirements and growth rate.  I think Acoelorrhaphe wrightii is a great example of this.  How many times have anyone seen that species get frizzle top or root rot, despite being in cultivation?  Even if a plant did survive further away from its habitat, you have to take into consideration if there is enough cross pollination to start another population.  I think the simple fact is, the slower a plant grows and reproduces, the harder it is to naturalize. 

I like this theory!

[Yunder Wækraus]

2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

It's like Alex said above, it's that muck soil that REALLY makes a difference.  It has it's own effect on plants like the rich volcanic soil has on plants in Hawaii.  An interesting side note about the VERY HEALTY AND HUGE Jamaican Tall coconut palms I saw in the South Bay area back in 2000 or 2001, was that NONE of them appeared to be suffering from Lethal Yellowing, and just passing through town, I don't recall seeing any dead trunks of any that looked like they might have succumbed to it previously.  Therefore, it would be interesting if the Jamaican Talls there have natural immunity to the disease, in which case getting viable nuts from them would be great, or if there is something in the rich soil there that gives them an immunity to the disease over time.

The palm nursery in Malabar only buys specimen palms from Pahokee because of the muck 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

The palm nursery in Malabar only buys specimen palms from Pahokee because of the muck 

That's interesting.  I would love to have an all organic palm and tropical plant nursery in that area growing about 7 or 8 different varieties of coconut palm, especially the local Jamaican Talls along with all sorts of other tropical ornamentals and fruit trees.

[Zeeth]

6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

That's interesting.  I would love to have an all organic palm and tropical plant nursery in that area growing about 7 or 8 different varieties of coconut palm, especially the local Jamaican Talls along with all sorts of other tropical ornamentals and fruit trees.

2.25 acres for $60,000 doesn't seem too bad.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3597-Airport-Rd-Pahokee-FL-33476/2100382641_zpid/

It doesn't seem like a city I would want to live in though. 

[Jimbean]

I have driven through that area, it is a bit rough.

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

I have driven through that area, it is a bit rough.

My dad was born in the hospital in Pahokee; my aunt was born in the hospital in Clewiston; my uncle was born in the house in South Bay, where all three were raised. My cousins were born in Belle Glade, which is where my parents lived when I was born (though I was actually born in the hospital in West Palm because my parents had enough sense to avoid Belle Glade's hospital). My family has lived in the Glades for nigh on 100 years, and I feel intense nostalgia each time I visit. Tomorrow I will be going to Belle Glade for a relative's funeral (thence to Clewiston for the burial). I know it's rough, and there are few Florida Crackers left there, but I do love it. If my wife and kids could handle it, I'd move there tomorrow (and I'm in a crime-free beach town!). I guess plants are the best way for me to remain connected to mu Everglades pioneer heritage.

[Jimbean]

It is a beautiful area.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

12 hours ago, Zeeth said:

2.25 acres for $60,000 doesn't seem too bad.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3597-Airport-Rd-Pahokee-FL-33476/2100382641_zpid/

It doesn't seem like a city I would want to live in though. 

Unfortunately, that's way our of my price range, as I am unemployed and broke and just hoping to hold onto the little house my wife and I have here in Corpus Christi.  There is property in Cameron County, where Brownsville is for more acreage and significantly less price.  For instance, in Bayview, a very small rural community about 15 miles ENE of Brownsville, there is a 4.12 acre tract for $45,000.  It is a safe upper middle class area of the Valley and has a very similar climate to what the Pahokee and South Bay area have (but with less rainfall), and it has the rich delta soil of the Lower Rio Grande River, since there are many resacas (old river channels with water in them).  It has native subtropical forest on it and a small pond.  If I could buy it, I would have a home on 1 acre, clear an acre for a small organic palm and tropical plant nursery, and preserve the other two acres as native habitat for wildlife like the native Mexican Red Crowned Parrot, Green Parakeet, Green Jay, the ocelot, and jaguarundi (The Lower Rio Grande Valley has many native tropical birds, including some really beautiful ones, as well as two species- very rare now, of tropical cats).

[Yunder Wækraus]

22 hours ago, Jimbean said:

10 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Unfortunately, that's way our of my price range, as I am unemployed and broke and just hoping to hold onto the little house my wife and I have here in Corpus Christi.  There is property in Cameron County, where Brownsville is for more acreage and significantly less price.  For instance, in Bayview, a very small rural community about 15 miles ENE of Brownsville, there is a 4.12 acre tract for $45,000.  It is a safe upper middle class area of the Valley and has a very similar climate to what the Pahokee and South Bay area have (but with less rainfall), and it has the rich delta soil of the Lower Rio Grande River, since there are many resacas (old river channels with water in them).  It has native subtropical forest on it and a small pond.  If I could buy it, I would have a home on 1 acre, clear an acre for a small organic palm and tropical plant nursery, and preserve the other two acres as native habitat for wildlife like the native Mexican Red Crowned Parrot, Green Parakeet, Green Jay, the ocelot, and jaguarundi (The Lower Rio Grande Valley has many native tropical birds, including some really beautiful ones, as well as two species- very rare now, of tropical cats).

I've been intetested in extreme southern Texas for s long time. In addition to the creatures you named, y'all also used to have jaguars. My understanding is that parts are short-term 10a-10b, but long term 9a-9b. One of my Florida cousins from the Glades married a woman from Brownsville, and they both say that extreme winter temps in S. Texas are noticesbly colder than S. Florida.

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

49 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

 

Alex,

The absolute all time record lows are lower in the Rio Grande Valley than in South Florida, but the normal high in Brownsville now is 70F/51F as I recall.  They have been 10A for some time with many winters 10B.  South Padre Island is 10B with some winters 11A.  There are mature coconut palms from Edinburg and McAllen in the interior part of the Valley through Harlingen and Brownsville to South Padre Island, and the ones that are adequately watered in the hot dry summer have coconuts on them.  I have personally seen several mature Mexican Talls at about 40 to 45ft. in overall height, and a coconut palm at South Padre that I have counted 47 coconuts on (but the lady who owns the house told me one year, she had 93 coconuts on her palm).  There is also a HUGE Royal Poinciana that takes up about 3/4 of a corner resaca yard in Brownsville that would probably rival any you would see in Melbourne or Sarasota, FL.

The big jaguars (not the smaller jaguarondi) from what I understand used to range as far north as Victoria, about two hours northeast of Corpus Christi in the summer time, but were year round residents in deeper South Texas, especially in the Valley.  I have a good friend from La Feria near Harlingen who remembers when he was a young man when the last Rio Grande Valley jaguar was killed near where he lives in the 1950's.  What a shame that so many animals and so much habitat has been destroyed by man.  In addition to the Mexican Red Crowned Parrot and Green Parakeet that are still fairly common there, from what I understand, there used to be the Yellow Parakeet too, but it was killed off, probably by plume hunters.

There are some extensive mangrove creeks along the Rio Grande Delta, with MANY Black Mangroves and some Red Mangroves too.  One time while looking for coconuts at Boca Chica, at the delta where the Rio Grande flows into the Gulf. my friend I mentioned above and I saw two Red Mangroves with many seeds on them growing along a tidal creek we were exploring behind the dunes on the beach.  When we were walking back to my Jeep, we saw a flock of what looked like Reddish Egrets, and he said when he was younger, he once saw a wild Flamingo there.

[Jimbean]

I would like to explore what kind of climate south Texas has. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

I researched the S. TX climate pretty intensively about 3 years ago. Here's what I remember: S. Padre Island is the most moderate and is roughly comparable to the northern end of Barrier Island in Brevard County, FL. Tropical mangroves fill the estuarine areas of S. TX but are killed back by cold every 5-15 years. The lack of protection from continental air (and its concomitant cold) guarantees devastating freezes as far south as tropical Veracruz, Mexico!