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Long and Lat


wendisplantation
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Hello all!

I have a question re long and lat.

Is it reasonable to expect that if I have a friend that is the same basic distance from prime meridian and equator, but opposite (me in the Northern hem and they in the southern) , that we could grow similar things, altitude being similar as well?

I realize there is a lot more to it than just that, but I am curious if one could use long and lat to judge whether or not to TRY a particular species. There are so many plams that I want to try, but I have to pick and choose wisely because my makeshift greenhouse is fills up fast when 'winter' is coming....

Thanks ???

Wendi

"I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees!"-Dr. Seuss :P

north central east coast of Florida

halfway between Daytona and St. Augustine

15 mi inland

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Interesting question, Wendi  ???

Equal latitude north or south of the equator is a reliant element for possible success but other factors need to be considered.

My hunch is that Florida is relatively safe in comparison to similar latitudinal plant life regions south of the equator [considering elevation & ocean influence].  Longitude shouldn't have any effect.

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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Hi Wendi, Latitude may be only a starting point in your considerations of what might grow well in your area. It certainly is important primarily due to sun angle and intensity. Some palms like Cocos nucifera like lower latitudes not only for warmth, but also for the more intense sunlight. They do grow in places like Bermuda (do they grow in the Canary Islands??), and even a few exceptions at higher latitudes in California but I have a feeling they are much faster growing in the Bahamas, South Florida and points south due in part to sun intensity alone. Maybe I am wrong about this sun intensity thing, but I can feel a big difference in the strength of the sun between Tampa and Miami. I know some places have exceptional clarity (like in deserts or higher altitudes) at higher latitudes that may have intensity equivolent to lower latitudes. Furthermore, latitude can be misleading in that many people post here from latitudes 30's-40's north and south that are able to actually grow more tender palms than central Florida due to oceanic influence. For example, people in southern California easily have central Florida beat in the number of species that they can grow, even with the recent freeze they had. They may lose tender palms once every 10 to 20 years, central Florida loses them every 5 to 10 years because arctic air can flow down the spine of the state largely unobstructed, direct from Canada and even Siberia. Exceptions for central Florida include areas within a block or 2 of either coast. But, latitude certainly is key in overall warmth of an area. There is no doubt that lower latitudes in Florda and Texas have overall warmer winters of shorter duration than points north. A locale in central or South TX or FL may experience yearly freezes, but there are usually not long durations of cold temps. Whereas, higher latitudes (30's and 40's south and north) may have a hard time bouncing back after cold air moves in or may be downright cool (even if not freezing) over a much longer winter.  So for you, I would recommend looking around your area and seeing what is growing and base your garden largely on that. Get some canopy going and then plant more tender, experimental species under canopy (i.e. anything with a crownshaft here in Florida). Looking at your signature, I would suspect you are vulnerable to cold north and northwest winds that acompany those Arctic blasts, unless you are on the southeast shore of a large lake. Again, be thinking about lots of canopy. Fast growing cold hardy palms like Washingtonia and Syragus can make a nice canopy in a few years. There are nice, cold hardy Avocado trees out there that are supposed to grow pretty fast. Some of the citrus trees are nice. The native oaks are a good choice too, but a little slow in my opinion. Also, I have seen enough large Ficus Benjamina, Ficus Elastica and even a large Ficus benghalensis growing here in Ruskin (which likely has a very similar climate to yours) that I would recommend one of those as long as you plant them a good distance from your house or your neighbors' houses. They may not be the best canopy for palms, but the really help create the tropical look!

Ficus benghalensis:

IMG_1086Large.jpg

IMG_1087Large.jpg

I hope I helped a bit. I am sure other people have a lot more knowledge to contribute regarding this subject.

:)

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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I would think that to a large degree one could grow plants from similar latitudes in the southern hemisphere.  There are some differences in climates depending on where though.  In South America due to the lack of a large land mass extending toward Antarctica the intensity of cold fronts is never what it is in the USA.  Even though the waters off Brazil and Argentina are generally cool due to northward currents the ocean still modifies the movement of cold air fronts.  So, you can grow some plants better farther south than the continent than you can in the same location in North America.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

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:D Thanks everyone!! I realize that there are a tremendous amount of factors, but this has been my starting point when deciding what to try next.

My particular little chunk of land gets almost 0 frost, only in 2 little places in the yard. I live in country Florida and I have these 150 foot pines that I have a love / hate relationship with that protect me but i have had a couple very large ones fall and miss the house by mere inches. I have in the ground a small triple Adinidia that I put a trashcan over when it is going below 32*, and for 2 winters it has been there, still growing like crazy!!

Also, Thanks for the pics of the ficus. I have seen those trees and always thought they were sort of tropical looking, but didn't know what they were!

Where is Ruskin? And I am curious as to what you have growing there, palm-wise??

It got 'canned' 2 times last winter, total.

I have learned to be crafty when it comes to using the blessings I have been given. I also have a makeshift greenhouse that my BF and I put together for a coconut palm that I 'rescued' from the local Wal-Mart.....what dorks-cocos does not grow here....not without being treated as an extra child....LOL :P

Anyway, I appreciate the info....always.... hope you all don't get sick of me asking so many questions..... :D

Wendi

"I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees!"-Dr. Seuss :P

north central east coast of Florida

halfway between Daytona and St. Augustine

15 mi inland

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Wendi,

At mid-latitudes, like Florida, there is quite a bit of difference between the north and south hemispheres in general.  There is very little land at latitudes above 40 degrees in the south, and much more ocean in general.  This means the temperatures will be much more extreme in the northern hemisphere, especially in winter.  Consider Durban, South Africa and Jacksonville Florida.  Both are at 30 degrees latitude on the east coast, and the record low in Durban is 3C (37F), but the record low in Jacksonville is -14C (5F).  Or Brisbane, Australia and Tampa Florida, both coastal cities at 28 degrees latitude.  It doesn't freeze in Brisbane, but  the record low for Tampa is -8C (18F).

Jack

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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Based on my limited understanding, there's also one more very important aspect: mountain ranges, and how they're situated. In continental Europe, which is at a latitude (more or less) of the Canadian-U.S. border the main mountain ranges are stretched out in an east-westerly direction, preventing coldfronts from the north to penetrate too deep into southern Europe. Anyone who has driven across the Alps has seen this firsthand. Heading south thru Switzerland or Austria, and across the Alps, the first glimpse of northern Italy in places like Lago di Garda (Lake Garda) is absolutely astounding with near tropical vegetation.

North America, on the other hand, with its large landmass that stretches all the way to the Arctic has mountain ranges in the west and east that stretches out in a north-southerly direction, creating a freeway in the middle where the Canadian coldfronts can head south without any obstacles, easily reaching Florida and the Gulf of Mexico. Presumably the fact that Australia has a large body of water south of it helps to insulate it to some degree.

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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Great discussion  :P

Equal hours of April sunshine across the planet [longest daylight at the poles]. Suppose that is a longitude factor.  ???

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(ruskinPalms @ Apr. 03 2007,17:04)

QUOTE
(...) Some palms like Cocos nucifera like lower latitudes not only for warmth, but also for the more intense sunlight. They do grow in places like Bermuda (do they grow in the Canary Islands??)(...)

I think they do  :)

Cocos nucifera in Southern Tenerife, at latitude 28 N

cocos_los_gigantes.jpg

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Long doesnt seem to affect much but it has been noted by others that S.sempervirens "opens up" more if planted Westerly in Europe and it is more than just Westerly winds.

Havnt a clue why.

Regardez

Juan

Juan

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(bgl @ Apr. 03 2007,20:41)

QUOTE
Based on my limited understanding, there's also one more very important aspect: mountain ranges, and how they're situated. In continental Europe, which is at a latitude (more or less) of the Canadian-U.S. border the main mountain ranges are stretched out in an east-westerly direction, preventing coldfronts from the north to penetrate too deep into southern Europe. Anyone who has driven across the Alps has seen this firsthand. Heading south thru Switzerland or Austria, and across the Alps, the first glimpse of northern Italy in places like Lago di Garda (Lake Garda) is absolutely astounding with near tropical vegetation.

North America, on the other hand, with its large landmass that stretches all the way to the Arctic has mountain ranges in the west and east that stretches out in a north-southerly direction, creating a freeway in the middle where the Canadian coldfronts can head south without any obstacles, easily reaching Florida and the Gulf of Mexico. Presumably the fact that Australia has a large body of water south of it helps to insulate it to some degree.

Bo, let me further elaborate on the situation of the Alps. The west-east direction of the range is very beneficial for us in the middle Europe as the westerlies that moderate our weather and bring precipitation are not blocked by the range. On the other hand the "westerners" in France or even Spain find it less beneficial because the range does not block the winter arctic cold that every now and then comes from the east - Russia. In fact, the weather we get from the north (from Scandinavia) and which gets slightly moderated by going over water masses (North and Baltic seas) is nowhere as bad as the weather we get from the east. Cheers, Jan

N48° 19'12.42", E18°06'50.15"

continental climate somewhat moderated by the influence of the mediterranean sea, atlantic ocean and north sea water masses but still prone to arctic blasts from the east as well as hot and dry summers. pushing the limits is exciting.

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Latitude itself means nothing, but there are general rules indirectly related to latitude, linked to the effect of water/land/wind masses. For examples, the Eastern coasts of most continents are wet (e.g. Florida), while the Western side is drier (e.g. California), especially in the subtropical belts, where trade winds play a major role.

The ultimate climates on Earth to grow a wide array of species are oceanic climates. That is, being surrounded by a neverending mass of sea, mitigating temperature extremes coming from any direction. Oceanic-ness means a yearly even climate which is often beneficial to any cultivated plant. Examples are Hawaii in the higher Tropics, Canarias in the lower Subtropics and  New Zealand in the temperate belt. This is where you can grow Jubaea and Cocos together. This is where you can best grow rainforest plants in the desert or cacti in the rainforest. This is one of the reasons why we are happy here :)

In most of the Canaries there is no difference in the minimum temperature of the average year and the one recorded in the coldest year. It is rather the duration or number of cold nights, or the strength of storms, but the extreme digits are always the same. If a species survives to one year, then it will possibly live "forever".

Carlo

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Also, Mediterranean Europe has a much better climate than anywhere in America at similar latitudes. It is the Mediterranean sea itself.

Napoli and New York share a similar latitude, but in Naples you can easily grow outdoors many Chamaedorea, Archontophoenix alexandrae and other subtropical species.

The best places in the Mediterranean (e.g. Sicily or Costa del Sol) are often palmistically compared to So.California, but:

- So.California is better because it is more South, (so, sun intensity, daylength, etc.)--> palms grow stronger and faster.

- So.California is worse because it can get cold snaps from the North --> Palms can suddenly die after many years of great growth.

Carlo

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Carlo, one would think that Florida is well moderated by the ocean as it is surrounded on 3 sides by fairly warm water (sometimes downright hot water) throughout the year. Maybe we should get a referendum put on the next ballot to have 20 or 30 mile wide canal built to separate the flroida peninsula from the mainland.  :P  By the way, I had no idea that the Canary Islands were that far south. For some reason I thought they were much farther north than Bermuda. Cocos grow near both coasts in FL at 28N latitude without too much issue. I think that some have survived the worst recorded freezes in history here in FL at that latitude and south.

It was mentioned that Brisbane is at the same latitude as Tampa. I am wondering how far inland the good climate extends in Australia? To me, it would seem that inland Australia and South Africa (20 to 40 miles from the coast ?) might have wicked radiational freezes at times much like inland Florida. How far does the ocean influence extend inland in Australia and South Aftrica? How cold can interior Australia and South Africa get due to radiational freezes?

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Bill (Ruskin),

I don't have the answer to your question (hopefully someone in S. Africa and Australia will), but there's a big difference between Florida and those two places: FL is flat as a pancake, but both S. Africa and Australia have mountain ranges not too far from the coast.

Bo-Göran

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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(Carlo Morici @ Apr. 04 2007,14:01)

QUOTE
- So.California is better because it is more South, (so, sun intensity, daylength, etc.)--> palms grow stronger and faster.

- So.California is worse because it can get cold snaps from the North --> Palms can suddenly die after many years of great growth.

Carlo

Actually, the whole of the Mediterranean can get cold snaps as intense(or stronger) as California's and surely more often so due to cold air making it over the alps or merely spilling from France.

All the areas hard hit by the freezes in So-Cal were atleast 10-miles from the ocean, where as Crete or ever Malaga can get hard freezes right up to the shoreline as the Med does not have a fraction of the mediating ability of the Pacific.

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All very interesting replies, thanks to all for contributing.

Special thanks to Carlo for the beautiful cocos pics...

now we all know why you live where you do.....you can grow it all!!!! Your secret is out now....is there enough land mass in the Canaries to hold the world population of palm freaks? I already have a beautiful little spot picked out :;):  :;):

Wendi

"I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees!"-Dr. Seuss :P

north central east coast of Florida

halfway between Daytona and St. Augustine

15 mi inland

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The Australian coastal climate is very much moderated by the ocean, and some parts such as the southern coastline could be called almost purely oceanic. However these southern oceanic regions may be a bit low on the growth degrees needed for fast growth. But for species that don't need high heat these areas are great, eg Howea, Hedyscepe, Lepidorachis, Rhopalostylis. Inland Oz is a harsh place. Although I'm in a largely frost free locale being around 20km from the sea in a direct line, going up and over the hills into the interior 40 or 50km and temps can at times get down to negative 5C approx. Some areas on the coastal plain can get down to neg 3C for reasons I'm not sure but that is an exception. On the east coast I'd imagine the same situation 80-100km inland from Brisbane, but again you are talking some altitude as well. To reach a frost free zone in inland Oz you would probably need to go at least as far north as 16S in the interior. Central Oz can get really cold in winter and blazing hot in summer.

On another note, Cocos nucifera can't be grown in mainland NZ. It's a bit cold down there.

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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Here is a map of the climate zones in Oz.

post-63-1175785654_thumb.png

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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More detailed map

post-63-1175785796_thumb.png

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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There are also features unique to certain areas, like the gulf stream.  I would have thought that the most important consideration after latitude is whether the location is continental or cooastal/oceanic.  Altitude is obviously important in any location as well as surrounding topography.

I'm just pleased that I can grow a lot more palms outside at 51°N than many people in areas much closer to the equator.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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Corey,

Yes, the Gulfstream is probably the most important component of weather in all of northern Europe. It has an incredible impact on Ireland, the U.K., Iceland and all of Scandinavia, as well as (somewhat marginally) northern continental Europe. Without the Gulfstream all these places would be VERY inhospitable during the winter. I've been up to Spitsbergen at around 80 degrees lat N (only 800 miles from the North Pole), and the entire western part of this large group of islands is pretty much ice free, even during the winter (despite the fact that Spitsbergen itself is covered by ice and glaciers almost all year round). ANY other area this close to the North Pole (and it's equivalent to being about 400 miles further north than Pt. Barrow, Alaska) is definitely covered by ice and snow 12 months of the year. Southern Greenland, also benefits, and the summer there can actually be semi pleasant, at least if you're in one of the fjords close to the ocean. I've also been up to northern Norway many times (my first wife was born there), about 300 miles north of the Arctic Circle. It's not unusual during July and August to have temperatures up in the mid 70s F (25C or so), and very nice, sunny and dry weather. This is at a latitude (approx. 70 N) almost exactly that of Pt. Barrow, which is a VERY cold place, no matter when you go there.

Bo-Göran

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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Great maps Tyrone  :P  

Western Australia like western America is latitudinally warmer than the eastern coasts.  ???

Degrees days play a major role in what will grow.

For example :

Heating degrees days since July 1 2006

Los Angeles : 645    

San Antonio : 1361      

Tampa : 315

Cooling degrees since Jan 1 2007

Los Angeles : 76

San Antonio : 106

Tampa : 315

NWS

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(happ @ Apr. 06 2007,00:03)

QUOTE
Heating degree days since July 1 2006

Los Angeles : 645    

San Antonio : 1361      

Tampa : 315

Cooling degrees since Jan 1 2007

Los Angeles : 76

San Antonio : 106

Tampa : 315

NWS

Sorry for mistake :

Heating degree days for Tampa - 370

Tyrone

Can you provide link to those maps?  :)

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(Dacher @ Apr. 04 2007,22:03)

QUOTE

(Carlo Morici @ Apr. 04 2007,14:01)

QUOTE
- So.California is better because it is more South, (so, sun intensity, daylength, etc.)--> palms grow stronger and faster.

- So.California is worse because it can get cold snaps from the North --> Palms can suddenly die after many years of great growth.

Carlo

Actually, the whole of the Mediterranean can get cold snaps as intense(or stronger) as California's and surely more often so due to cold air making it over the alps or merely spilling from France.

All the areas hard hit by the freezes in So-Cal were atleast 10-miles from the ocean, where as Crete or ever Malaga can get hard freezes right up to the shoreline as the Med does not have a fraction of the mediating ability of the Pacific.

Isn't the influence of the Gulf Stream's warmer waters the majore region that Europe is warmer at the same latitudes than North America?

dk

Sorry I had not read Bo and Corey's posts before I hit submit.  But at any rate I belive this is the chief reason for the temperature differences.  And, one of the models of Global Warming and increased melting of Artic ice shields is decreased slalinity in the North Atlantic which may stop the Gulf Stream short and decrease overall temperatures in Europe.

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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Happ, Here are the links.

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin....ion.cgi

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin....ion.cgi

There is a lot of good info on this website.

I think the west coast of Oz is warmer than the east in general due to lower humidity levels in the west which creates a greater diurnal temp difference between max and mins. Averages between max and min would be identical though at any given latitude.

regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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(Dacher @ Apr. 05 2007,03:03)

QUOTE
where as Crete or ever Malaga can get hard freezes right up to the shoreline

Many spots in the Southern Mediterranean are protected from those blasts. Think of how winding and hilly is the coastline of the basin and how many islands exists. Frost free are those little islands or those valleys between the cliffs and the beach scattered here and there over different  smaller islands, or island tips. The hardest cold front recalled by growers came in 1985. It killed most Howea in the French riviera and most Phoenix canariensis from central/Northern Italy. Firenze was hit by an unbelievable -23 C (-9,4F) and palms such as Trachycarpus, Butia and Jubaea defoliated or died. When the wave got to Sicily it was so weak that in my lucky hometown on the Northeastern tip of the island we got our historical minimum of -0,5 C. Dypsis lutescens and Coccothrinax crinita can take this!

And then there are differences.Spain and So.Italy are probably better than the Eastern Mediterranean. The amount of water around a place makes a great difference.

Sicily is in the center of all, and away from everything. The main threat there is often cold or hot weather flowing from inland Sicily to the coast (rarely down to the tips of the island). The Iberian peninsula (Spain+Portugal) is a "giant sunny island" linked to France.

Bad weather in the Mediterranean clearly reminds to me the wars of the past ;) Look at this:

>They can come from the North through the Alps (French and Germans attack! Or Barbarians during the Roman Empire)

>They can come from Eastern Europe (Byzantium, the Soviets!), again through the mountains.

>They can come from the South (The Arabs take over...) ... if able to cross the sea.

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Thinking about selected locations in the Mediterranean, I have just found this:

A 40 years old Delonix regia blooming and fruiting in Donnalucata, So.Sicily at Lat. 36º50'N

Posted by Lukrezio in www.tropicamente.it forum.

Look:http://s3.photobucket.com/albums....443.pbw

The author said the pictures were taken in late September and it is all red in August.

Carlo

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There is much less land and a lot more ocean in the Southern Hemisphere than in the North. The Northern Hemisphere has all of Europe, Asia and North America and some of South America. The Southern Hemisphere only has Australasia in its entirety, more than half of South America and less than half of Africa (I'll ignore Antarctica as that is no home of people or palms). As you go further and further south you get less and less land till you reach Antarctica so the oceans circulate a lot of heat. So its climates naturally tend to be more oceanic than those of the north.

Consider that coconut palms grow pretty well in Durban at 30'S on the coast of South Africa, and at Margate more than 100 km further South still. I cannot think of any continental coastline of the northern hemisphere that would allow them to grow in the same way. I've seen them in the Canary Islands at about 28'N but that is not part of any continent. 30'N runs through New Orleans and just north of Houston in the USA.

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Here is a frost map of South Africa. As you can see the coasts and low lying regions are generally frost free, while the interior is elevated and experiences quite severe frosts. You can see that Bloemfontein lies slightly north of Durban, but while Durban's beaches are lined with coconuts and it has an all time low of 3C, Bloemfontein has reached -10C and seen frosts in seven months of the year. This is mainly because Bloemfontein is at an altitude of 1400m. Fortunately the Drakensberg mountains run parallel to the coast and keep this cold air away from the coastal plain.

Mountains stretch from just East of Cape Town Eastwards towards Grahamstown and then North East towards Newcastle and Mbabane forming a rim or lip to the high plateau to the North/West.

The Tropic of Capricorn runs though the far North just North of Pietersburg, Durban is at about 30'S and Cape Town at about 34'S.

451623161_29d1ac0b9a_b.jpg

These are some long term climate stats from some of the towns and cities shown on the map:

Beaufort West

Bloemfontein

Calvinia

Cape Town

Durban

East London

Johannesburg

Kimberley

Ladysmith

Nelspruit

Pietermaritzburg

Pietersburg

Port Elizabeth

Pretoria

Richard's Bay

Umtata

Upington

451692668_9d5244332d_b.jpg

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This reminds me of an article I did years ago about matching the climate of South Texas to other places around the world. Qld Australia and especially Argentina can get pretty hard radiational freezes at around the 26th-28th parallel. These are some old maps from those articles that show the record minima from Queensland and Argentina (note the readings near 0F on the Pampa west of Buenos Aires - that is seriously cold for the Southern Hemisphere at that latitude and altitude):

minimaargentina.jpg

minimaaustralia.jpg

One thing worth mentioning is that, aside from the exceptional 15F reading from Mitchell QLD in the 1970s, is that Argentina will get more  frequent severe cold events and has more capricious winter temperatures than Australia - it often goes from the 80s w/ nights in the 60s down to below freezing in the span of a few days in the region of Santiago del Estero. The afternoon highs during those cold snaps also tend to be lower in Argentina. No wonder Argentine trees can take our South Texas winters better than most Australian plants

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(ed110220 @ Apr. 09 2007,02:17)

QUOTE
Consider that coconut palms grow pretty well in Durban at 30'S on the coast of South Africa (...). I cannot think of any continental coastline (...). I've seen them in the Canary Islands at about 28'N but that is not part of any continent.

Coconuts can grow in the islands of Madeira (32-33 N), which is north of the Canaries, but it is oceanic again.

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(ed110220 @ Apr. 08 2007,19:28)

QUOTE

Ed,

Those stats show how well Southern California is protected from continental air.  Since there are very tall mountains between us and the continent, we have a "southern hemisphere" type climate here.  Los Angeles is at 34N, with an all time low of -2C.  This is comparable to Cape Town and Port Elizabeth, both at 34S, and both with all time lows of -1C...

At 34N on the east coast you have Wilmington, North Carolina, with an all time low of -18C.

Jack

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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Another major factor which should be considered is the prevailing wind direction. In between 30 and 60N we get prevailing westerlies which means the places on west coasts (British Columbia down to SoCal and western Europe (and partially central too) get much milder winters than the US east coast or the east coast of Asia (Russia, Korea and China) despite being at the same lat and close to vast water masses.

winds.jpg

Yes, the Gulfstream is probably the most important component of weather in all of northern Europe. It has an incredible impact on Ireland, the U.K., Iceland and all of Scandinavia, as well as (somewhat marginally) northern continental Europe.

Bo, whole of Europe benefits from the Gulf stream and the prevailing westerlies. I live in the very center of Europe being half way between the Baltic sea and the Mediterranean sea (you don't get much more continental in Europe unless you go further east), still my yearly average temperature is 10.5C compared to Quebec, Canada 4.2C, while Quebec is 2 degrees further south and much closer to the ocean. That's almost 6 degrees difference!

Cheers, Jan

N48° 19'12.42", E18°06'50.15"

continental climate somewhat moderated by the influence of the mediterranean sea, atlantic ocean and north sea water masses but still prone to arctic blasts from the east as well as hot and dry summers. pushing the limits is exciting.

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(richtrav @ Apr. 09 2007,01:59)

QUOTE
This reminds me of an article I did years ago about matching the climate of South Texas to other places around the world. Qld Australia and especially Argentina can get pretty hard radiational freezes at around the 26th-28th parallel. These are some old maps from those articles that show the record minima from Queensland and Argentina (note the readings near 0F on the Pampa west of Buenos Aires - that is seriously cold for the Southern Hemisphere at that latitude and altitude):

minimaargentina.jpg

minimaaustralia.jpg

One thing worth mentioning is that, aside from the exceptional 15F reading from Mitchell QLD in the 1970s, is that Argentina will get more  frequent severe cold events and has more capricious winter temperatures than Australia - it often goes from the 80s w/ nights in the 60s down to below freezing in the span of a few days in the region of Santiago del Estero. The afternoon highs during those cold snaps also tend to be lower in Argentina. No wonder Argentine trees can take our South Texas winters better than most Australian plants

Aren't most of the places with colder readings in Argentina at a farily high altitude, those in Northwester Argentina? When compared to the same lattitude in Australia.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

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Jack, Tampa's 18F you referenced is an even bigger anomaly than the freeze you guys had this winter.

I believe it has dipped below freezing in Brisbane before.  Someone (Daryl, Wal etc.) please confirm or correct me.  Tampa's 18F in 1962 is very much an anomaly and definitely not the norm.  In fact, I've dipped below 30F only twice in the last 17 years and nowhere near that 1962 low temperature.  Why does my howetown get such a bad wrap when it comes to cold weather??  It's not that cold here.  I just like to bitch a lot.  I will say it's probably the coldest (as is all of Florida) location on earth at these latitudes.  Miami is at 26 and change N latitude and has "frozen" many times.  How many other places on earth get those temps at that latitude?!

Whoever has heated their homes in Tampa for 300 plus hours is a complete wimp.  I'd love to know the definition of "heating hours".  Is that when temps dip below 60F outside???   I can count the number of times I ran the heat this year on two hands and it's nowhere near 300 hours.  Man, there are some really tempetature sensitive folks living around me.  I guess that's why it's condsidered a "cold" climate.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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(Ray, Tampa @ Apr. 12 2007,08:17)

QUOTE
Jack, Tampa's 18F you referenced is an even bigger anomaly than the freeze you guys had this winter.

I believe it has dipped below freezing in Brisbane before.  Someone (Daryl, Wal etc.) please confirm or correct me.  Tampa's 18F in 1962 is very much an anomaly and definitely not the norm.  In fact, I've dipped below 30F only twice in the last 17 years and nowhere near that 1962 low temperature.  Why does my howetown get such a bad wrap when it comes to cold weather??  It's not that cold here.  I just like to bitch a lot.  I will say it's probably the coldest (as is all of Florida) location on earth at these latitudes.  Miami is at 26 and change N latitude and has "frozen" many times.  How many other places on earth get those temps at that latitude?!

Whoever has heated their homes in Tampa for 300 plus hours is a complete wimp.  I'd love to know the definition of "heating hours".  Is that when temps dip below 60F outside???   I can count the number of times I ran the heat this year on two hands and it's nowhere near 300 hours.  Man, there are some really tempetature sensitive folks living around me.  I guess that's why it's condsidered a "cold" climate.

Ray - I realize the 18F in Tampa is pretty unusual, much more rare than what we had this winter.  I'm sure it's a once in a 100 year thing, like in 1949 when it snowed in Pasadena and the downtown LA low was 28F.  Much colder than the low of 36F recorded in downtown LA in January.

Also, I think the map Richard posted answers your question about Brisbane, where the number is 36F...

What's funny about Florida is it actually has some of the warmest AVERAGE temperatures for the latitude thanks to the gulf stream.  But, it also has the coldest EXTREME low temperatures for any coastal locations at that latitude...

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(Ray, Tampa @ Apr. 12 2007,11:17)

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Whoever has heated their homes in Tampa for 300 plus hours is a complete wimp.  

Count my house in the wimp category!

I am sure the heat has run for far more than 300 hours this winter.  In fact, the heat was on just a few days ago.  

There were many times this past winter when the heat was on even during the daytime.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(Ray @ Tampa,Apr. 12 2007,11:17)

QUOTE
 I'd love to know the definition of "heating hours".  Is that when temps dip below 60F outside???   .

Heres a cut and paste from the NWS---

"For any individual day, degree days indicate how far that day's average temperature departed from 65 degrees F. HDD's, which measure heating energy demand, indicate how far the average temperature fell below 65 degrees F (since cooler weather means more heating fuel demand). Similarly, CDD's, which measure cooling energy demand, indicate how far the temperature averaged above 65 degrees F. In both cases, smaller values represent less fuel demand, but values below 0 are set equal to 0, because energy demand cannot be negative. Furthermore, since energy demand is cumulative, degree day totals for periods exceeding 1 day are simply the sum of each individual day's degree day total. For example, if some location had a mean temperature of 60 degrees F on day 1 and 80 degrees F on day 2, there would be 5 HDD's for day 1 (65 minus 60) and 0 for day 2 (65 minus 80, set to 0 since degree days cannot be negative). For the day 1 + day 2 period, the HDD total would be 5 + 0 = 5. In contrast, there would be 0 CDD's for day 1 (60 minus 65, reset to 0), 15 CDD's for day 2 (80 minus 65), resulting in a 2-day CDD total of 0 + 15 = 15."

In short, any temp below 65F is assumed to require heating while any temp above 65F is assumed to require cooling.  Neither of these is probably 100% accurate, but as long as everyone uses the same covention comparisons can be made.

I think the original concept for degree days came way cack when from a fuel company/association of some sort as an estimate on when to make fuel deliveries.

There is also something called the "Bin Method" used for design purposes which is more complex, but a better overall estimate of the actual heating/cooling demands.  The "bins" represent hours between certain temperatures in 5 degree F increments.  As such, one is not merely averaging the highs and lows for a given day to get an end result as is done with the degree day method.  The total of all "bins" necessarily adds to 8760 hours, or the total period in one year.

Heres some sample Annual Bin Data for a two locations.  This data shows the drastic differences in climates.   Miami spends almost 70% of the time between 70 and 85F.  

As an example of the format of the below, "100/104 - 8" means that LA spends 8 hours a year with the temp between 100 and 104F.  

Los Angeles, CA

100/104 - 8

95/99 - 8

90/94 - 9

85/89 - 17

80/84 - 53

75/79 - 194

70/74 - 632

65/69 - 1583

60/64 - 234

55/59 - 2055

50/54 - 1181

45/49 - 394

40/44 - 74

35/39 - 4

30/34 - 0

Miami, FL

100/104 - 0

95/99 - 0

90/84 - 45

85/89 - 864

80/84 - 1900

75/79 - 2561

70/74 - 1605

65/69 - 871

60/64 - 442

55/59 - 222

50/54- 105

45/49 - 77

40/44 - 36

35/39 - 12

30/34 - 0

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Thanks Larry.  It's just as ridiculous as I expected.  A more realistic 300 heating hours would actually translate to somewhere like Detroit, Michigan or Bangor, Maine.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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