Royal Palms in Florida

[MPie]

I'm not 100% sure if im posting this in the correct place. My applogies if I am not. New fourm member.

Anyway, i have been trying to find places in florida where these royal palms grow native in the wild. So far I have only found them gowing in the fakahatchee strand, collier state park and the deep lake area... Found these on Google Earth and various google searches.

So, I was wondering if anyone here knows anywhere else where you can see them growing in the wild?

[redbeard917]

I remember seeing some along the banks of whatever creek you canoe at Jonathan Dickinson State Park near Jupiter, FL.

I also used to read that the Florida and Cuba palms were different species. Is that still the case?

[MPie]

  On 6/21/2015 at 8:26 PM, redbeard917 said:

I remember seeing some along the banks of whatever creek you canoe at Jonathan Dickinson State Park near Jupiter, FL.

I also used to read that the Florida and Cuba palms were different species. Is that still the case?

I heard they're the same palms still. I am not 100% sure though.

[Zeeth]

They grow wild in Emerson point in Palmetto, Florida. The wild ones are pretty young though. The tallest have about 10 feet of trunk. There are some big ones 105 years old in an area of the park though.

[MPie]

  On 6/21/2015 at 10:25 PM, Zeeth said:

They grow wild in Emerson point in Palmetto, Florida. The wild ones are pretty young though. The tallest have about 10 feet of trunk. There are some big ones 105 years old in an area of the park though.

Oh! thank you for the information!

[dmc]

  On 6/21/2015 at 8:26 PM, redbeard917 said:

I remember seeing some along the banks of whatever creek you canoe at Jonathan Dickinson State Park near Jupiter, FL.

I also used to read that the Florida and Cuba palms were different species. Is that still the case?

That would be the loxahatchee river. and yes there are some growing there, and also to the north along the banks of the st.lucie river.

[Yunder Wækraus]

I know they used to be on Paradise Key in the Everglades. Here's a quote from Lawrence E. Will's 1964 "A Cracker History of Okeechobee" regarding this stand: "West from Homestead lies beautiful Paradise Key, gem of all the islands [within the inland Everglades], with its tall royal palms, its orchids, and bright colored tree snails" (pg. 14).

Here's what I found online about it: http://www.nps.gov/ever/learn/historyculture/royal-palm.htm

[MPie]

  On 6/22/2015 at 4:11 AM, Yunder Wækraus said:

I know they used to be on Paradise Key in the Everglades. Here's a quote from Lawrence E. Will's 1964 "A Cracker History of Okeechobee" regarding this stand: "West from Homestead lies beautiful Paradise Key, gem of all the islands [within the inland Everglades], with its tall royal palms, its orchids, and bright colored tree snails" (pg. 14).

Here's what I found online about it: http://www.nps.gov/ever/learn/historyculture/royal-palm.htm

Thats actually a really neat find. Thank you. I checked it out on Google Earth. I see a few wild ones around the Paradise Key area.

25°22'55.40"N 80°36'46.91"W

These are my favorite palms. Happy to know they still grow native in my state. I really hope they make a comeback in great numbers.

[Yunder Wækraus]

They're my favorite palm too. I'm assuming you've already read about Bartram's controversial account of royal palms along the St. John's River.

[Palmə häl′ik]

There are some along 275 just before the SkyWay bridge on the Manatee/Tampa side aswell... There is some ManateeCo park located there at the base of it

[dmc]

We all know royals have naturalized in many areas of Florida or been brought to areas by other means. I've heard the only native stands of royals we're in the everglades. Thoughts,comments?

Dominic

[MPie]

  On 6/22/2015 at 10:31 AM, Yunder Wækraus said:

They're my favorite palm too. I'm assuming you've already read about Bartram's controversial account of royal palms along the St. John's River.

i havent actually. what it is about?

  On 6/22/2015 at 12:03 PM, Palmə häl′ik said:

There are some along 275 just before the SkyWay bridge on the Manatee/Tampa side aswell... There is some ManateeCo park located there at the base of it

thanks!

  On 6/22/2015 at 1:21 PM, dmc said:

We all know royals have naturalized in many areas of Florida or been brought to areas by other means. I've heard the only native stands of royals we're in the everglades. Thoughts,comments?

Dominic

Thats mostly what I am looking for too. native strands.

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

The used to be a couple in the depths of the Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary in Collier County near Naples.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Anywhere they self-propagate in Florida is a place where they are native. There's no reason to apply a higher standard to these lovely palms than the one applied to other natives. If you're specifically interested in extant stands with an unbroken history of documentation going back to the first Anglos in Florida, then I think all sizeable stands have already been mentioned in this thread. Regarding Bartram: Google Bartram Florida Palm

[MPie]

Fair enough. Thank you.

[bubba]

Royal Palms are so voluminous in South Florida as to make Google searches for them a half-baked undertaking. There is no question that a gigantic number of these Royal Palms are not planted but are self perpetuating. As suggested, a Google search of Bartram and Royal Palms may be much more instructive.

Without question, Bartram provides the first account of this beautiful and majestic palm in Florida in 1765. The question is the accuracy of the location. His account places the sighting near the present small town of Astor at the St. John"s river on the Marion and Volusia county border and intersection of State Road 40. This appears to be further north than would be expected based upon it's current range.

If you Google Bartram and Royal Palms, you will find a Palmtalk entry dating back to 2006 that discusses this issue in depth. Of great interest to those of us who are long-term Palmtalkers is that the late/great Robert Riffle gets in the last word on the topic! No disrespect intended and welcome to Palmtalk.

[MPie]

Thank you for info. It makes me happy to know these palms are around in large numbers. Native.

[Eric in Orlando]

Most of these naturalizing Royal Palms are from seeds from cultivated specimens of originally Cuban origin. I wonder if there is any genetic or DNA difference between the Florida and Cuban Royal Palms. The original wild Florida populations have been reduced to those in the Everglades/Fakahatchee/Corkscrew swamps.

[Yunder Wækraus]

I wonder how true that really is. I understand that Florida royals were being dug and replanted 100 years ago for ornamental purposes.

[Palmə häl′ik]

I think the "FL Royals" are skinnier.

elatas vs regias

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

From what I have seen, the Florida Royals can grow taller and are usually skinnier, sometime with a slight bend in the middle of the trunk. I have seen some Florida Royals around South Bay and Clewiston on the south side of Lake Okeechobee that were about 100ft. tall and VERY beautiful. The Cuban Royals from what I have seen usually grow no more than 70 to 80ft. tall, with a straighter and thicker trunk. I think there is a distinct difference in the two.

[Yunder Wækraus]

It's possible, but I've come to think they're interchangeable. Think about it: they're unlikely to have been in Florida for more than several thousand years, and they didn't really occupy a very different niche here. I think any perceived differences have everything to do with soil, climate, and care. My uncle's royals in South Bay are massive, healthy, never-fertilized, never-watered, bird-planted palms which look great. I guarantee you that seed from uncle's palms will not produce the same result outside of that black muck and virtually frost-free lakeside without lots of watering and fertilizing, which might cause the perceived physucal differences. Has anyone done serious DNA testing?

[MPie]

Have royal palms always been native to Florida? Like, were they introduced here?

[MPie]

And what I mean by that. Where they naturalized by early humans. Were these palms from Cuba?

Sorry for the double post.

[Palmə häl′ik]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/18505-the-haley-house/#entry309909

[Yunder Wækraus]

  On 6/25/2015 at 9:40 PM, MPie said:

And what I mean by that. Where they naturalized by early humans. Were these palms from Cuba?

Sorry for the double post.

This brings us back to the great debate about what constitutes "native" vs. "invasive." The least controversial answer would be this: these palms have been a part of Florida's outdoor landscape for as long as humans have recorded things in the area. They reproduce year after year in Florida without human intervention. They did not evolve in situ in Florida; rather, like so much of the flora of South Florida, they evolved on tropical islands to the south. If humans had any hand in the spread of these plants, which I really don't think would be a necessary hypothesis (these sorts of plants are meant to be propagated across islands--that's their thing!), then such dispersal is no different than a bird ferrying the plants across. (I honestly think the same thing could and should be said for the coconut, though I suppose we can argue about the first reference to the plant in Florida...but I really wonder whether there might have been coconuts growing wild in he Keys long before the current

first-recorded attestation.)

[MPie]

I really really appreciate the answers. You guys are very informative. Thank you very much!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Coconuts are my favorite, but royals are a close second. I love them and I have a Florida and a Cuban Royal in my backyard.

[hbernstein]

There are old historical photos of Miami that show the Miami River and Miami River Canal neighborhoods (I'm thinking around 27 Ave. or Douglas Rd.) with obvious remnant native Royals. I always thought that it would be interesting to try to find any survivors. Some of the photo locations are quite obvious. The neighborhoods are now quite dense and have been built over many times, but the old trees were tall and impressive. Maybe one or two still exist in front of someone's 1920's house.

There are remnant Bald Cypress in at least two Miami Locations: the old channel of a creek entering the Miami River by the Polish American Club, and on a church property and Pinecrest Gardens, the remnant of the original Snapper Creek. I'm sure that native Royals grew in those locations. Perhaps their descendents are still there.