Which kind of Archontophoenix ?

[RRONNIE]

Hi all - need your help.

Untill recently I thought my Archontophoenix is Alexandrae - but then someone told me he thinks it is Cunninghamiana ?

I checked with friends in another forum (before i joined this one) and over there the majority also voted for Cunninghamiana.

It hasn't bear fruits yet - which could have helped deciding.

Since i'm not sure yet - looking for your expertise - what do you think ?

(the trunk picture comes next).

Thanks,

Ronnie

[RRONNIE]

The trunk..

[Jeff Searle]

You mean there's another palm forum? I thought this was the ONE and ONLY!

Jeff

[rubyz]

Ronnie, from the trunk and curve of the fronds, I would agree that it's a. cunninghamiana.

[ruskinPalms]

Hi Ronnie, I have been trying to ID my king palms for awhile. This was bought as small palm last year and was labled as Archontophoenix cunnunghamiana. It fires off reddish new leaves. I have another that has started to put red leaves too that was bought at the same time. From what I read at PACSOA, A. c. is very variable in its natural range. I find the Archontophoenix genus hard to ID personally. This one may be a hybrid as they are all grown down in south Florida in less than controled conditions. That is assuming that Archontophoenix hybridizes - really I don't know. Hope this helps in your ID quest!

[Walter John]

Ronnie

You have a bangalow (cunninghamiana). The underside of the leaves appear green. Shine a torch on the underside at night and if it's shiny silver, it's not a bangalow but an alex, but the trunking habit (slightly slimmer than alex, less bulge at the base) and the leaves tell me it's cunninghamiana.

Bill

Yours is truly spectacular, this is not that common at all and usually the bangalows produce some colour in new leaves, on the other hand, the crownshaft at that stage shows more alex or even maxima appearance. At that stage of growth the banaglows still have a yellowish look but yours is prime green. Tricky. You too should shine a torch under the leaves, don't stand too close, and if it's shiny silver it ain't a bangalow.

How's that ? Like to hear others chime in, they can be tricky to ID.

Great palms Archontophoenix, can be taken for granted or even classed as a pest, but have a good look at them , they are superb palms.

[Bennz]

Ruskinpalms,

I have some plams that look like that too, seed from Ellison Hort. in S QLD sold as A. alexandrae beatricea, although mine have not developed the stepped trunk. Your palm does not look like cunninghamiana at all, the underleaf looks silver. Some of the subtropical bangalow populations do have very red new leaves though, some around Murwillumbah in particular. I think yours is not cunninghamiana though.

[Tyrone]

Bill, I think I can see white underneath in the pic. I'm thinking A maxima.

Ronnie, you have some great looking palms growing there in Israel. How extreme is your climate? I was under the impression that the climate there was quite harsh. If it is, your palms sure don't know it.

regards

Tyrone

[Walt]

My guess it's A. cunninghamiana. I'm growing five species of Archontophoenix in my marginal wintertime climate, and love them all. This genus is one of my favorites. If your palm were to be alexandrae the underside of the leaves would most definitely have a silverish hue to them.

I read in palm books that A. cunninghamiana is more cold hardy, but my A. alexandraes seem to do better and recover faster than A. cunninghamina from winter frost/freeze, etc. Further, they look better IMO.

One of my A. alexandrae palms (below link) is still recovering from a bad freeze/frost on February 14th 2006:

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/155....MG]

[Bilbo]

Walt; Im sure our Aussie friends can answer that cos I certainly cant - some look at first glance - rather similiar.

For myself I am thinking of planting the cold hardiest of the Kings which I think is cunninghamia ?

Regardez

Juan

[Phil]

Ronnie,

Wal is right.  When you look at a palm you think is a type of Archontophoenix, look more closely for clues as to the species.  First, look on the underside of the leaflets.  Cunninghamiana are plain green.  All of the others have some degree of silver on the underside.  Purpurea is very pronounced silver.  Maxima can be subtle.  If the plant is showing its crown shaft, cunninghamiana looks a bit "dirty" with brown spots and irregular color.  Myolensis is a beautiful lime green.  Purpurea won't show purple (if it does) until it gets a bit older.  As a juvenile plant, purpureas have a bit of yellow color to the petiole and holds onto the simple leaf longer.  In about a 2 gallon size, they can be easily spotted.  A new "reddish" leaf (see photo above) is a characteristic of maxima, although this can be variable.  In mature plants that are seeding, flower color and seed shape/size/color and trunk/crown shaft  helps a lot, but many people have years to wait for their plants to get this big.  We have most of the species in all sizes, from bands to boxes.  Maxima when small look the most like cunninghamiana.  Tuckeri can be difficult to spot as well.  But, all are different and with due diligence, once can learn to make a prety good guess as to the species.

Phil

[Phil]

I also wanted to tell a story about this species in So Cal.  Our nursery had a customer named Richard Winchell.  A retired Dean of an East Coast College, Richard had retired next to Lake Hodges, a small man-made lake near Escondido, CA.  His uncle had started the famous Winchell's Donuts in the U.S.  Richard visited our nursery on a regular basis and planted a variety of palms.  But, his particular favorite was Archonotophoenix maxima.  Every time he visited us, he'd pick up three or four more maximas.  I asked him, why so many of the same thing.  He said, "I just love the looks of this plant".  Well, this went on for years.  A few years back before he passed away from A.L.S. (Lou Gherrig's disease) he wanted for me to visit his garden and see his palms.  In his back yard, right adjacent to the lake, he had at least 50 then mature A. maximas, in all their splendor with red new leaves showing.  Many were flowering and had rather tall trunks.  Since his passing I don't know what happened to all these plants and if they withstood the cold assault this winter.  But, for a decade, they thrived in this inland location.

Phil

[paulgila]

mmmm...donuts.

[Walt]

(Bilbo @ Mar. 24 2007,07:02)

QUOTE

Walt; Im sure our Aussie friends can answer that cos I certainly cant - some look at first glance - rather similiar.

For myself I am thinking of planting the cold hardiest of the Kings which I think is cunninghamia ?

Regardez

Juan

Juan: Cunninghamiana is reputed to be the most cold tolerant, but from my experience (and it is still limited) my alexandraes fared better and recovered quicker from freeze/frost damage. In fact, my alexandrae didn't seem to get bacterial bud rot, causing new fronds with deformed, chewed down leaves, yet my cunninghaminas did exhibit this condition.

In any event, at least they are all recovering from the damage they recieved on Feb. 14, 2006. Luckily, this winter they escaped damage.

Walt

[Davidl]

ruskinPalms Yours I'm  sure is not cunninghamiana just by the look of it. Probably Alexandrae. heres some small ones. Here is alexandrae.  

Cunninghamiana in my observation seem to be more lime green and no silver undersides.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/...038155055LMUDQW

[Davidl]

Cunninghamiana

Alexandrae

[RRONNIE]

Hi y'all.

Thanks for answering and suggesting.

Jeff - You are right -  This (forum)  is the Only # 1 - and yes, there are "others". Hope i'm not getting into any "trouble" - but, one which i find enjoyable and enlightening (to a novice like me) is "Palms and Cycads Discussion Forum" at DavesGarden: http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/palms/all/

Look there and tell me what you think.

Ronnie

[RRONNIE]

Hi y'all.

Thanks for answering and suggesting.

Wal - It worked !!

I Shone a torch on the underside an hour ago and it was just great.

Well, the firemen were also great.

The public house shelter (where i'm at now) is great...

As you can tell - it was shiny - not silver - more like gold/red/fire - but most importend - it is Cunninghamiana - and it's great        (those da.. sick foreigners) :laugh:

Seriously, Thanks

Ronnie

[RRONNIE]

(Tyrone @ Mar. 24 2007,11:42)

QUOTE

Ronnie, you have some great looking palms growing there in Israel. How extreme is your climate? I was under the impression that the climate there was quite harsh. If it is, your palms sure don't know it.

regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyron

Thank for compliments.

Bear in mind - this is "the land of milk and honey (and palms)".

The only "Harsh" thing in Israel is life !!! - the climate is a mix of southern California + southern Florida + Arizona.

Winter, in central Israel (excluding Jerusalem, mountainous area) on the average, gets to lows 8 degree Celsius (46+- degree Fahrenheit).

No special frost, No special colds, no snow (well, i think in 1954...).

Ideal country for Palms and indeed the country is covered with palms - but alas/unfortunately - In my personal eyes/obsevation: 90% (maybe more) comprise of, Date palms Syagrus Romanzoffiana (Queen Palm - "Cocos Plumosus") and Washingtonias... 5% is Archontophoenix Alexandrae/Cunninghamiana and Neodypsis (Dypsis) Decaryi (Triangle Palm)... and 5% all the rest of genus..

Let me know if you want to know more.

Ronnie

[tikitiki]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana =ramenta to about 5 cm long

Archonotphoenix alexandrae = lack ramenta

easy if it has ramenta as Archontophoenix purpurea is the only other one with them and it in easy to distinguish from cunninghamiana.

[Walter John]

One more word from me on alexandrae versus cunninghamiana. Whilst cunninghamiana no doubt can endure cooler weather, it is not as tough as the alex regarding strength in growing/establishing. The mighty alex will out burst all the other Archos any day of the week, so this is why you may see him outshine the bangalow. It's like (excuse me girls), the alex is the rugged male and the bangalow, well the name says it all,       .

"Wal, can't you be serious for one minute ?"

"umm, I thought I was"  ???

[RRONNIE]

Wal, I like serious people comme moi.

Ronnie -  the humor torch carrier.

[ZoneTenNut]

Since we are talking about IDing Archontos, I have a palm that I purchased as Clinostigma, but has apparently turned out to be an Archonto. The smaller palm on the right is a calappa whose canopy is a bit comingled at the moment with the Archonto, so this was the best shot I could get of it. Someone suggested this might be Tuckeri, but the more I look at it and research it, I'm thinking a Myolensis. I did the shining the flashlight on the undersides of the leaves thing, just a couple minutes ago, and it is very silver/white. Can you guys tell me what you think?

[ruskinPalms]

Zone 10, Whatever type it is, it is a beauty!

I took some day and night pics to show the difference in the archontos that I have:

These two I definitely think are A. c.  They have ramenta on the bottom of the leaflets and really are not that silver at all - plus they tend to struggle in their afternoon sun area.

[ruskinPalms]

A. c. night:

Underside:

[ruskinPalms]

Now the other one that I am not sure what species - it was labeled A. c. and bought at the same time and place.

One year ago - sun burned:

Day:

[ruskinPalms]

Night:

Underside:

And a totally unrelated double at night - still was labeled A. c.

[ruskinPalms]

Thought I would post the night underside closeups side by side for easy comparison:

Definite A. c. -

Mystery Archonto -

[ruskinPalms]

If I had been able to get the camera to focus better I think you could have seen the ramenta on the A. c. underside.

[Tyrone]

(RRONNIE @ Mar. 24 2007,14:46)

QUOTE

(Tyrone @ Mar. 24 2007,11:42)

QUOTE

Ronnie, you have some great looking palms growing there in Israel. How extreme is your climate? I was under the impression that the climate there was quite harsh. If it is, your palms sure don't know it.

regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyron

Thank for compliments.

Bear in mind - this is "the land of milk and honey (and palms)".

The only "Harsh" thing in Israel is life !!! - the climate is a mix of southern California + southern Florida + Arizona.

Winter, in central Israel (excluding Jerusalem, mountainous area) on the average, gets to lows 8 degree Celsius (46+- degree Fahrenheit).

No special frost, No special colds, no snow (well, i think in 1954...).

Ideal country for Palms and indeed the country is covered with palms - but alas/unfortunately - In my personal eyes/obsevation: 90% (maybe more) comprise of, Date palms Syagrus Romanzoffiana (Queen Palm - "Cocos Plumosus") and Washingtonias... 5% is Archontophoenix Alexandrae/Cunninghamiana and Neodypsis (Dypsis) Decaryi (Triangle Palm)... and 5% all the rest of genus..

Let me know if you want to know more.

Ronnie

Ronnie, It sounds like you have the same climate as me more or less. How much rain do you get? Where are you in Israel near the coast?

regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Ruskin, looking at the underleaf of your mystery Archo, it isn't cunningha... cos it's silver and it's definitely not purpurea cos even though it's silver there is no ramenta, so I would say alexandrae in all likelihood.

regards

Tyrone

[ZoneTenNut]

(ruskinPalms @ Mar. 24 2007,19:59)

QUOTE

Zone 10, Whatever type it is, it is a beauty!

Bill,

Thanks. I think this is a beautiful palm as well. Very striking crownshaft. Still not sure exactly what it is, but I have some Alex and Cunnin and this one is definitely different from both of these.

Roger

[Phil]

For those of you who don't know what "ramenta" means, here's a definition:

Ra`men´ta    (rå`mĕn´tå)

n. pl. 1. (Bot.) Thin brownish chaffy scales upon the leaves or young shoots of some plants, especially upon the petioles and leaves of ferns.

Here's a clip from PACSOA  Re: A. purpurea

Palm to 25 m tall, trunk to 30 cm diameter and frequently with a bulbous base. The leaves are about 4 m long and have the pinnae in a near horizontal orientation. The crownshaft is red/purple and covered with deciduous dark red waxy scales. Pinnae have silvet/grey scales below as well as ramenta on the midrib below, (the only species in the genus to possess both features).

But, as you become familiar with these species, you'll come to realize that A. purpurea just "look different".  Once you learn this, you'll spot them every time.

Phil

[tikitiki]

A. purpurea underside with ramenta

[RRONNIE]

Tyrone,

Quote:"The climate of Israel is typically Mediterranean in nature with cool, rainy winters and warm, dry summers. Temperatures vary considerably with elevation, exposure to the sea, and predominant winds. January is normally the coldest month and August the warmest.Israel's is defined as "Mediterranean climate"

My addition: 27 - 28 rainy days a year.

My area is called "HaSharon" - an area in the center of the country - 5 kilometers from the coast - the heart of orchards (oranges and so) and strawberries fields forever of Israel. So you can imagin it is O.K. for palms.

HaSaron gets 400 - 600 mm of rain a year (hope you are using the same measures).

See in enclosed map - Hod Hasharon (near Tel Aviv) - my city. And up north Karmiel - where rubyz lives (near/north of Lake Kinneret)

Ronnie

[RRONNIE]

OOOPPPSS - thought it will be bigger - try:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-map-Carta.asp

Ronnie

[Tyrone]

Thanks for that Ronnie. Yes your climate is nearly identical to mine. On average we get more winter rain around 900mm, but lately we've been getting exactly what you get in winter. On very very rare occasions we even get cyclones down here. We too have orange orchards, grow strawberries etc and there are a few edible date palms around which fruit, but there are many many more Canary island date palms and Washingtonias that were all the rage in colonial days. The most common palm is Syagrus romanssanstuff planted in the 80's and 90's, lots of Dypsis decaryi and lutescens, and foxtails do very well here with older ones even fruiting though a rare occurence. There also is the odd Cuban Royal, lots of yellowing Ravenea rivularis, the odd Caryota and a few really well growing Ptychosperma elegans. Carpentaria's also grow and fruit. There are many more but I'm rambling. We should compare notes to see what other things you can grow.

best regards

Tyrone

[RRONNIE]

Hi Tyrone,

As far as palms - i think that with the exception of "very tropical in its' requierments" palms (such as Cyrtostachys renda) we can grow, in my region, just about every other kind of palm.

As an example - my own variety include:

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Rhopalostylis sapida

Dictyosperma album

Ptychosperma elegans

Thrinax morrisii

Wodyetia bifurcata

Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

Ravenea rivularis

Thrinax radiata

Caryota mitis

Phoenix roebelinii

Dypsis leptocheilos

Chambeyronia Macrocarpa

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Livistona decipiens

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

Wallichia densiflora

Chamaedorea plumosa

Chamaedorea oblongata

Neodypsis (dypsis) decaryi

Chamaedorea seifrizii

Chamaedorea ernesti

Arenga

And ... all bases are packed - now, i need the neighbors to lend me some land (i already plant in the street, in the public garden-beds near my house - enclosed evidence, so you believe me).    

Oh i would have tried this renda anyway - if i only could get one...

Ronnie

[KatyTX]

Phil,

Thanks for the definition of ramenta.  I was looking for noodles...

Always looking out for use noobs...

Matt

[Tyrone]

(RRONNIE @ Mar. 26 2007,11:41)

QUOTE

Hi Tyrone,

As far as palms - i think that with the exception of "very tropical in its' requierments" palms (such as Cyrtostachys renda) we can grow, in my region, just about every other kind of palm.

As an example - my own variety include:

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Rhopalostylis sapida

Dictyosperma album

Ptychosperma elegans

Thrinax morrisii

Wodyetia bifurcata

Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

Ravenea rivularis

Thrinax radiata

Caryota mitis

Phoenix roebelinii

Dypsis leptocheilos

Chambeyronia Macrocarpa

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Livistona decipiens

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

Wallichia densiflora

Chamaedorea plumosa

Chamaedorea oblongata

Neodypsis (dypsis) decaryi

Chamaedorea seifrizii

Chamaedorea ernesti

Arenga

And ... all bases are packed - now, i need the neighbors to lend me some land (i already plant in the street, in the public garden-beds near my house - enclosed evidence, so you believe me).    

Oh i would have tried this renda anyway - if i only could get one...

Ronnie

Very good Ronnie. I think a lot of us could relate to running out of space. Your species list looks almost identical to mine. Do any coconuts grow near you? There are a couple around me, but they are very rare.

If you could find the room, you could grow a heap more Dypsis sp, Ravenea species, Caryota's, Laccospadix, Linospadix, Rhopalystilis bauerii, Licuala ramsayi. Hyophorbe indica will thrive for you.Pinanga coronata would grow for you in a shady spot, maybe even Areca vestiara if you kept it moist. My most tropical in the ground is an Areca catechu, and a Hydriastele wendlandiana. The Hydriastele hasn't been thru winter yet, but the catechu has with a bit of protection. The A vestiara went thru with no protection and kept growing in summer but it is slow. It will supposedly harden up. I'm going to try a coconut in time in a very special spot, as well as a Carpoxylon macrospermum. I had a small Adonidia survive but look awful for 3 yrs. In a better spot and with good genetics this species may grow here.

I think half the fun is trying out things and trying to "beat" the climate. Sometimes it can be disheartening but in most cases I've been surprised what grows.

Also don't forget the other Archontophoenix's. They'll all grow for you.

regards

Tyrone