FULL SUN SEEDLINGS or not?

[mike453]

William,

Good to hear that you caught the humidity problem when you did  I sure wish I could get a couple of these P ekmanii to go for me. Did you take the thin outer shell off of the P sargentii seeds? It sure worked well for me doing it that way. I have about 60 or 70 germinated so far out of 100. I have never germinated any satakentia seeds but I have heard that they can take a while. Thanks for the pictures of your germinations, and we will be seeing more I am sure!

                   Mike

[Zac in NC]

Cool shots William. Looks like you bit the bug big time, but I think most people really bite it hard when they discover palms.

Zac

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks Zac!  I think I got it pretty bad pretty quick...  but as we all soon discover.....  These things take time to grow, so it seems like the rest of us, it will become a lifelong pursuit for me.

I did not take the thin shell off the P. sargentii...  I collected these seeds from a fruiting tree nearby...  check out post number 7 in this thread for a detail of what I did with my seeds...  Zac you may want to read post #7 also...  It pretty much confimed my palm insanity...

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin....rgentii

Don't tell my dentist I did this he'd shoot me!

[Breadfruit Bill]

BUMP!!!

Hey Mike!  

I'm jonesin' for a pic of your Thrinax ekmaniana (Lollipop Palms)...  Haven't seen any pics from ya since germination!  How's the progress coming??  Also, I just realized your in Ohio...  I'm curious to see what your palm tree operation consists of...  Isn't Ohio like halfway between me and the Arctic circle?  You cold weather palm guys are cool!  (bad pun)

Bill

[mike453]

William,

I can't post any pics right now because I am out of town.(even closer to the Arctic circle) I've been above the Arctic circle, not much different than Ohio, just more daylight hours here in the winter's all. there are some pics of my greenhouse and grow rooms on the board, just not sure exactly where.  I will take a pic of the Thrinax on Monday, they went from little white hairs to little blades of green grass. Not very impressive looking, slow growing for me, but they look healthy. I would not call my palms an operation, more like an obsession. I have 2-1000 watt halides and one 400 watt going in two rooms and a closet, about 380 sq. ft + an 8 x 12 greenhouse that will be replaced by a dome this summer. (inspirational credit to Bobby in NY) Here is a photo I have of how palms are grown here, and if I cannot manage to move to a warmer climate soon, how my backyard may look.

                  Mike

(can't get pic to work will post when I get home)

[Carlo Morici]

(Ray @ Tampa,Mar. 13 2007,01:06)

QUOTE

Did you acquire a Hemithrinax (Thrinax) ekmaniana?  If you did, you are one of only a handful in the US with one.

Ray

Ray, 2007 is when the seeds have been offered for the first time through the commercial trade. It never happened before and I hope they really went up to the top of those little mogotes, with the needed bunch of Cuban permits and the needed bunch of the Cuban army.

Inge Hoffmann's Seed Service sold some in 1997  but they turned out to be "other species".

So if I am not wrong, all the cultivated plants in the world came from  the seeds I collected and distributed in late 1996. I am the "father" of the ones in Montgomery, La Habana, Las Tunas, Tenerife, Sicily, etc.

Carlo

[Breadfruit Bill]

Well then I'll ask the question...  Carlo, does what we have look like Thrinax ekmaniana to you?  (I can probably take a newer pic if it would help... Mike can probably take better photos that I...  I realize these things are so small and as Mike pointed out "Looks like a blade of grass.")

Maybe one day mine will grow up to look like yours at Montgomery!

[SubTropicRay]

Carlo,

How long is the average viability for H. ekmaniana seed?

Thanks,

Ray

[Carlo Morici]

William,

Yours can be a true H.ekmaniana. The eophyll (1st leaf with a true blade) of H.ekmaniana must look like a blade of grass. It is the smallest eophyll in the palm family together with those of other Caribbean Thrinacinae (e.g. C.gracilis, C.torrida, C.munizii). They are virtually undistinguisheable until their 2nd or 3rd year. The largest Eophyll is produced by Lodoicea.

Ray,

We did no experiments about viability, but I assume they must be viable for a long time. My guess is at least one year. Once they dry out they take months to react and sprout like postgerminators, often taking more months than expected (and possibly less success).

Carlo

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks for the input Carlo!  Very interesting!  I will be eager over these next couple years to see what these palms grow up to be!  Does anyone know Toby from RPS or speak German to ask him about the origin or aquisition of the seed?  Not that I doubt he would sell something unauthentic (Toby, certainly don't be offended), I am just curious of the story behind the life of the seeds!  

A pic of my "Palmitas de Jumagua" at 48 days...

[Breadfruit Bill]

OK, so not everything is going perfect here today in the germinator... I keep getting these Psuedophoenix ekmanii seeds showing up with this icky fuzzy green stuff...  What the heck is it???  It seems to eat it's way inside the seed and destroy it.      I have done my best to quarantine these problem seeds or dispose of destroyed ones...  I tried a drench in Chlorothalonil but the green stuff is super aquaphobic and the treatment is repelled from the growth!    Bleach kills the green stuff for certain...  If I catch it in time.  So what's this stuff called and is there a prescribed way to treat and destroy it?  Oh yeah, and will it harm the plants that have already sprouted?

[wendisplantation]

That seed needs 'pro-active'

[Carlo Morici]

William,

I can understand your thrill. How good it is to see them sprout again, ten years later!  Yours will look like "mines" at Montgomery Botanical Center in 10 years... if you plant them in the ground after a few years in pots. I hope they are the right species. If not so, any species with such a thin eophyll is something interesting.

Do not overdo with your incubator. H.ekamaniana is endemic to the tops of a sunny rocky hill, not to the depths of a fish tank! I would take them out as soon as you think it is enough. Adapt them to morning/afternoon direct sun and move to full sun in winter.

Carlo

[Breadfruit Bill]

Just saw my first Coccothrinax moaensis pop yesterday!  Very exciting!

[mike453]

Hi William,

Here are a couple pics of the T ekmaniana seedlings, I lost 3 of the 9 after transplanting. The roots are fragile.

I will try to get some pics of my growing rooms and greenhouse, but first I need to get my pics hosted somewhere so I can put more than 1 pic per post. I hope your seedlings are doing well.

Ray,

did you get your seeds yet? let us know how you do with them.

                 Regards, Mike

[mike453]

And one more.......

[mike453]

Here is a piture of some of my palm clutter:

[mike453]

P sargentii, I wish I could do this with the P ekmanii

[mike453]

More clutter:

[mike453]

The house gets pretty full in the winter, I have started to move some of the hardier palms out now. Another picture of the mess:

[mike453]

This palm grows best in Toledo....

[mike453]

A few more seedlings, and that's all for now. I will try and do a better job when I can put more than one picture per post.

                            Mike

[mike453]

William,

Congratulations on the Coccothrinax moaensis, how many of these did you plant? And how are your Thrinax ekmaniana doing? you must have quite a few by now.

Any picture updates?

                regards, Mike

[mike453]

No comment?

[Breadfruit Bill]

I am going to buy stock in 7-11!  You have so many palms!  What kind of lighting are you using?  I am getting concerned about stretching in the aquarium due to low lighting...  (Starting to see the electricity bill rising in my head already)

Planted 100 C. moaensis...  I hope I get at least a couple more to pop!  I think I've got about 50% of the T. ekmaniana...  I believe I was keeping the conditions a bit too dry to prohibit fungus problems on the P. ekmanii...  I, over the last couple weeks, have upped the watering schedule and am seeing prolific growth!

Ill get some pics tonight!  Been preoccupied over the past couple days...  Thanks for the update!  Ray, do keep us posted!

[mike453]

William,

I have 2 roughly 10 x 14 rooms with 1- 1000 watt and one- 400 watt metal halide each. Then a couple closets with a 400 watt MH and 4' flourescent tubes. The second batch of P ekmanii seeds I tried had the same results as the first  Why can I grow P sargentii and P Vinifera, but not P ekmanii?

I think I need to take a trip to the DR and get some really fresh seeds. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how well your seedlings are doing and I'm not jealous at all that you can grow P ekmanii and I can't

                            Mike

[Breadfruit Bill]

Mike I think its pretty amazing you can grow any Pseudophonix sp. in zone 5b!  Don't get too frustrated!  If you do head to the DR let me know, I want some fresh seed too!

A little picture update!

Coccothrinax sp. azul 45/100

Coccothrinax moaensis 1/100

Pseudophoenix ekmanii 17/100 (check out that spirally one, it's funky lookin!)

[Breadfruit Bill]

Pseudophoenix sargentii 10/34 (nothing like free seeds)

Pseudophoenix vinifera 56/100

and of course...

Thrinax ekmaniana 51/100

[mike453]

All are looking real healthy William, I can't wait till mine start to get leaves.

Thanks for posting the pics so I can learn the right way to grow these!

                        Regards, Mike

[Kris]

Dear Mike & William  

fentastic work ! and watching those beautiful sprouted stills is

simply out of the world kind of experience to me.

great work guys and thanks for sharing your progress in the

palm seeds germination field.

Love,

Kris  

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks Kris!  It certainly is miraculous to see life take new form in front of our eyes.  

Wow Mike that's alot of lights!  I noticed my electric bill change when I installed the 400 watt mh/hps combo fixture...  I can't imagine how ugly your utility bill is.  Do you cycle them on/off?  Sunrise to sunup kind of thing?  I would imagine that much light and the hum of the ballasts must get on your nerves...  or at least keep you awake!

Nonetheless, your lighting has inspired me...  at some point these are going to get moved outside in their community pots and after they have acclimated, I will eventually pot them up...  they are certainly not tough enough to withstand my bright summer sun just yet...  I went to the store and purchased a third bulb to add to my set up today.  In another couple of weeks I am going to wire in a fourth bulb to the circuit.  What temperature flourescents do you prefer?  i've got two 5500k and one 10,000k in the system now...  They seem to produce a fairly realisitc whitish, full sun kind of color.  

A couple pics!

The new bulb

A picture of the completed installation...  rewiring was a snap!

and lastly a photo of the completed job (didn't use a flash for this one, ya'll can see it's pretty bright in there!)

[Carlo Morici]

William, I don't understand. Aren't you in sunny Florida? Why adding more expensive light indoors if you can give them the same light with a cheaper shadecloth outdoors?

[Breadfruit Bill]

Hey Carlo, thanks for keeping tabs on us in here!  I guess I have it in my mind that I can achieve better germination rates in the enclosed controlled artificial environment than I would underneath the shade cloth.  When I started with the seeds it was January and cold.  I am still seeing new germinations weekly and am leary to change the conditions (aside from intensifying the light).  As I see the number of new germinations level off in each pot, the plan is to move them out in their community pots under the shade cloth for a few weeks to let them toughen up to the outdoor climate that is not so static.  After that period I will repot them in their own containers.  

I'm certain the plants are alot touger than I give them credit for, as they do come from a fairly hostile environment.  I am just overthinking the needs of the plants and am probably just complicating a fairly simple process.  I tend to do that.  

:cool:

[mike453]

William,

I run my lights for 16 hours during the day, and as I start moving plants out side I shut most of them down in the summer. They don't make much noise except for the first few minutes when they come on. I can't have but 1 or 2 400's running in the summer, it would quickly be an oven in here. I have never tried any VHO flourescents, just the old 40 watt ag bulbs. I guess I should try some out and see how they work.

Due to the vermin around my neighborhood, (squirrels, dogs, birds, cats, rats, rabbits, juvenile delinquents, crack heads and the like) some of my rare and valuable plants never go outside or into the greenhouse. I have had them stolen, eaten, and vandalized. Most palms do real well outside here in the summer, but I have too much invested in some of them to take them outside unless I sit there with them

                      Mike

[SubTropicRay]

Still no Hemithrinax seeds in the mail.  Hopefully, they are not floaters by now.

[Breadfruit Bill]

I've got a feeling your seeds will be fine Ray...  I'm still counting new sprouts almost daily...  We will keep our fingers crossed that your seed arrives soon!  I'll be interested to hear what you do with them, Mike and I used different methods...  (his baggie method is proving a better percentage of seeds popping than my germinator )  Keep us posted!  I'm sure Mike is just as enthusiastic to hear from you!

:cool:

[SubTropicRay]

William, did you add lots of perlite to your mix?

[Breadfruit Bill]

My Super Dooper Carribean Mix Version 2.0 consists of 60% (by volume) crushed coral, 20% coarse sand, 10% of peat and perlite...  Very experimental!  :cool:

[SubTropicRay]

Ok thanks.  I'm going to try 2 different mixes to see what yields the best, if any, results.

[mike453]

Hello Ray,

I'm sure they will germinate for you. You might want to soak them a little longer than normal, I beleive I soaked mine for only 24 hours but am not sure. I think william soaked his a little longer, and his germinated faster than mine. I also placed an order with RPS 2 days before you did and have not received them yet either, it's never taken this long before. They must be busy.

                          Mike