Most Northerly area of Florida Considered Zone 10b,10a, and 9b

[Coconutman]

Hello everybody,I'm new here on palmtalk and I used to live in New Port Richey FL.I would say that new port richey is probably on the northern edge of 9b in west FL.Temps in the 30s are occasionally seen in winter nights for several nights of the year.

[Jimbean]

yeah that's about what I have.

[Gecrabill]

I love this topic, and have a question. I know that these zones depict successful growth of the coconut. I also am aware that there is a difference between growing vs thriving. Does anyone have examples of a cocos nucifera that has fruited, dropped fruit, then successfully and naturally has developed into another mature fruit bearing cocos nucifera without human handling? I know it's a long stretch, but I am interested to see. A friend of the family has two cocos nucifera here in sarasota south of clark and west of 41, they have been there since he bought the home in 00', he just lets it go and has 3 which sprouted and are maybe 2-3 years old.

[Zeeth]

I love this topic, and have a question. I know that these zones depict successful growth of the coconut. I also am aware that there is a difference between growing vs thriving. Does anyone have examples of a cocos nucifera that has fruited, dropped fruit, then successfully and naturally has developed into another mature fruit bearing cocos nucifera without human handling? I know it's a long stretch, but I am interested to see. A friend of the family has two cocos nucifera here in sarasota south of clark and west of 41, they have been there since he bought the home in 00', he just lets it go and has 3 which sprouted and are maybe 2-3 years old.

I've seen coconuts on parts of the Sarasota bay growing among mangroves that I feel were probably not planted by man. I've gotten coconuts from under one in particular that is one of my better performing coconuts now. The difficult part is that our beaches are frequented very often, and most of the bay or riverside property is sea-walled, so coconuts don't have much of a chance to establish naturally anywhere. I know of a coconut on Lido key that was obviously thrown off the side of the boardwalk area into a dune that is pretty mature now and I've seen it fruit, but that required human intervention. I've had success germinating coconuts from trees as far north as St. Pete, so they're definitely capable of natural regeneration if they land in the right spot. I've heard reports of coconuts regenerating naturally around Cape Canaveral, but that's not something I've seen for myself.

[Jimbean]

On the east coast I've seen them naturalize as far as Sebastian Inlet area, which is about the Brevard county / Indian River county line on the coast.

[Dakotafl]

I found a couple of mine growing on the mainland shore of the IRL in Malabar and Eau Gallie, which is not uncommon, they were Golden Malayan too, i know i have seen them naturally washing ashore and sprouting on our beaches, i would never doubt them on the cape, as its not much colder, if at all there as on the south beaches to my knowledge.

In fact here i think it gets colder in the southern part of the county than in Cocoa, even on the IRL on the coldest nights., one thing to remember is that the beach is densely populated past a certain point and their is little to no chance of a coco to establish with numerous beach goers and condos right up on the beach.

Obviously, cocoa beach is also warmer than the inlet on very cold nights, it seems.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Dakotafl

[Jimbean]

I found a couple of mine growing on the mainland shore of the IRL in Malabar and Eau Gallie, which is not uncommon, they were Golden Malayan too, i know i have seen them naturally washing ashore and sprouting on our beaches, i would never doubt them on the cape, as its not much colder, if at all there as on the south beaches to my knowledge.

In fact here i think it gets colder in the southern part of the county than in Cocoa, even on the IRL on the coldest nights., one thing to remember is that the beach is densely populated past a certain point and their is little to no chance of a coco to establish with numerous beach goers and condos right up on the beach.

Obviously, cocoa beach is also warmer than the inlet on very cold nights, it seems.

I think there is even a chance here in Merritt Island.

I have also recently seen dypsis lutescens and roystonea naturalize in the area.

[SubTropicRay]

What's up with the east coast of Florida graphic with west coast cities?? Geographically challenged? Who knew there was a Bradenton near Vero Beach ?

[SubTropicRay]

'

[Jimbean]

What's up with the east coast of Florida graphic with west coast cities?? Geographically challenged? Who knew there was a Bradenton near Vero Beach ?

I was making a rough east and west coast comparison with regard to "zones."

[Dakotafl]

I found a couple of mine growing on the mainland shore of the IRL in Malabar and Eau Gallie, which is not uncommon, they were Golden Malayan too, i know i have seen them naturally washing ashore and sprouting on our beaches, i would never doubt them on the cape, as its not much colder, if at all there as on the south beaches to my knowledge.

In fact here i think it gets colder in the southern part of the county than in Cocoa, even on the IRL on the coldest nights., one thing to remember is that the beach is densely populated past a certain point and their is little to no chance of a coco to establish with numerous beach goers and condos right up on the beach.

Obviously, cocoa beach is also warmer than the inlet on very cold nights, it seems.

I think there is even a chance here in Merritt Island.

I have also recently seen dypsis lutescens and roystonea naturalize in the area.

I know that Roystonea naturalize on the barrier islands of Indian River, in the few areas that today are able to support, basically a few scattered areas of south Jungle Trail below 510/ Wabasso Causeway.

Living in central Indian River county, winter beach to be exact for awhile, it seemed as if the coldest nights were not much warmer there as in Merritt island, generally anyway, then again, i have never lived around MI, but seeing how good Royals do, I could definitely see them Naturalize there.

[SubTropicRay]

Rough comparison for sure. There are way too many Royal Poinciana, mango, and old Ficus bengalensis in south Tampa (MacDill area) for a 9b classification. It's 10a all the way. Hard freezes in this area are extremely rare.

[Jimbean]

The interbay peninsula is a pretty good rough comparison to Merritt Island, except I think we tend to get more day time heating for some reason.

[Jimbean]

I found a couple of mine growing on the mainland shore of the IRL in Malabar and Eau Gallie, which is not uncommon, they were Golden Malayan too, i know i have seen them naturally washing ashore and sprouting on our beaches, i would never doubt them on the cape, as its not much colder, if at all there as on the south beaches to my knowledge.

In fact here i think it gets colder in the southern part of the county than in Cocoa, even on the IRL on the coldest nights., one thing to remember is that the beach is densely populated past a certain point and their is little to no chance of a coco to establish with numerous beach goers and condos right up on the beach.

Obviously, cocoa beach is also warmer than the inlet on very cold nights, it seems.

I think there is even a chance here in Merritt Island.

I have also recently seen dypsis lutescens and roystonea naturalize in the area.

I know that Roystonea naturalize on the barrier islands of Indian River, in the few areas that today are able to support, basically a few scattered areas of south Jungle Trail below 510/ Wabasso Causeway.

Living in central Indian River county, winter beach to be exact for awhile, it seemed as if the coldest nights were not much warmer there as in Merritt island, generally anyway, then again, i have never lived around MI, but seeing how good Royals do, I could definitely see them Naturalize there.

yeah I was stoked when I saw Roystonea naturalize here on about midway up Merritt Island.

The biggest one was only about 2 foot tall, but still exciting nevertheless.

[Jimbean]

Rough comparison for sure. There are way too many Royal Poinciana, mango, and old Ficus bengalensis in south Tampa (MacDill area) for a 9b classification. It's 10a all the way. Hard freezes in this area are extremely rare.

Sometimes that is how I define a warm 9B. As a pretty good rule of thumb I figured out that if you take your short term annual minimum average say, the last 10 years, and subtract five degrees. Also, if the all time record low is below 23F, then I classify it as 9B. Take Merritt Island for example: short term minimum average is about 34F and change, all time record low of 22F, it is a 9B. You will see plenty of royals, adonidias, dypis, large mangos, 25 foot tall mangroves, large ficus, and some coconuts, it is still a 9B, albeit a warm 9B.

[SubTropicRay]

You will see plenty of royals, adonidias, dypis, large mangos, 25 foot tall mangroves, large ficus, and some coconuts, it is still a 9B, albeit a warm 9B.

None of the plants you've listed will survive and thrive in 9b winters for 50 years. Red mangroves and perhaps the native Ficus would be the only exception. Come over and I'll show you 50+ year old Banyans, mangos, mangroves and a few really tall Royals. The same is true on Merritt Island where I think a good portion of the island is zone 10a. Coconuts and Adonidia are not zone 9b indicators and would be lucky to survive 10 years in that climate. Agree to disagree but seeing as how I live on this coast, you'll have to take my word for it.

[Jimbean]

A repeat of 1989 over here, or a repeat of 1962 over there, and most of that gets wiped out.

[SubTropicRay]

Yeah but anomalies don't make a zone. The big plants I mentioned are 50+ years old. They made it through 1970, 1977, 1983, 1985 and 1989 albeit showing the scars of those events. Miami has been in the upper 20's during some severe freeze events but they are not zone 9.

[edbrown_III]

all I can say it sure as heck aint Jacksonville !

[Jimbean]

Yeah but anomalies don't make a zone. The big plants I mentioned are 50+ years old. They made it through 1970, 1977, 1983, 1985 and 1989 albeit showing the scars of those events. Miami has been in the upper 20's during some severe freeze events but they are not zone 9.

There are many '89 surviving gumbo limbo, mangoes, and ficus all over the island. There are many pre-'89 royals on the south end and I think one on the northern area. Even though these are technically zone 10A trees, they do not need to be in a zone 10A to thrive; in this case it can do almost as well as a warm 9B.

The average low is about 34F with a record of 22F. This is what I did, I took 34F and subtracted five, or added about 7 to the 22F and have 29F. I have noticed about a 12F spread between record lows and average lows throughout the peninsula. The record low for Miami is 28F with an average low of about 40F, so it is about 35F there. Orlando has a record of 18F with an average of ~30F (depending on how close you are to the metro area), making it 25F, or add a degree for the increased urbanization in the last 20 years.

Of course this is a very crude rule of thumb, but I think you have to take into consideration record lows somehow.

[SubTropicRay]

Even though these are technically zone 10A trees, they do not need to be in a zone 10A to thrive

With so many long term survivors, why would I question what I can easily observe? A Royal palm that gets hammered by yearly 29F temps is hardly thriving and will likely succumb to what is a true zone 9. I don't get that here so 10A it is. Many of these plants can survive one time "devastating" freezes because it happens so infrequently.

[Jimbean]

Even though these are technically zone 10A trees, they do not need to be in a zone 10A to thrive

But a yearly defoliated Royal is so difficult to stomach.

oh yeah I agree.

[Jimbean]

Even though these are technically zone 10A trees, they do not need to be in a zone 10A to thrive

With so many long term survivors, why would I question what I can easily observe? A Royal palm that gets hammered by yearly 29F temps is hardly thriving and will likely succumb to what is a true zone 9. I don't get that here so 10A it is. Many of these plants can survive one time "devastating" freezes because it happens so infrequently.

keep in mind that I am not relying on average minimums to define zones.

[Dakotafl]

Take a drive on Jungle trail in Winter Beach, its about midway into Indian River county but I seriously doubt that it gets much colder in Merritt Island than there and they have a few very old coconut palms and royals, massive ones at that, I always loved Jungle Trail.

I would even say that at least a couple of these Cocos are pre 89, and of course the Royals are, they were reported to be naturally growing when the settlers arrived on the island.

[Dakotafl]

Even though these are technically zone 10A trees, they do not need to be in a zone 10A to thrive

With so many long term survivors, why would I question what I can easily observe? A Royal palm that gets hammered by yearly 29F temps is hardly thriving and will likely succumb to what is a true zone 9. I don't get that here so 10A it is. Many of these plants can survive one time "devastating" freezes because it happens so infrequently.

I tend to agree with you on this one, 10a is technically known to be semi marginal for Cocos anyhow, despite the fact that they often thrive where i am, it depends allot more on soil conditions for me it seems, and even inland Palm Bay can sustain Roystonea long term, at least one that i know of is pre 89.

Me and my neighbor were in a bit of a dispute on this one......(the thing's we plant people go through ) and usually atleast by most official standards, climate is measured by averages and certainly we do not on average go below 32, where I live atleast, which is why it bothers me when some people that come from up north cut their plants down to the ground preparing for "winter" ...

[Dakotafl]

I seriously knew this woman who would cut her hibiscus bushes to the ground in November or so and be astounded that they were growing so fast in December....

[Jimbean]

... and of course the Royals are, they were reported to be naturally growing when the settlers arrived on the island.

That's incredible if true!

[Jimbean]

Yes, in fact is was because the royals that thrive in Merritt Island is what got me thinking about naturalizing them in the area. Sure enough when I started to look areas that were already heavily planted I started noticing volunteers popping up in vacant lots and along side of unkept canals and people's gardens.

[Dakotafl]

... and of course the Royals are, they were reported to be naturally growing when the settlers arrived on the island.

That's incredible if true!

I can't remember who or where i saw this said but they grow naturally for sure, the first people on the island were citrus farmers.

[Dakotafl]

... and of course the Royals are, they were reported to be naturally growing when the settlers arrived on the island.

That's incredible if true!

I mean they are Naturalized for sure.

[naraj]

@ Jimbean. I love your Florida growing zone map think it's the best growing zone map available.

As far as what will grow and where, longterm, Here is what I believe is a slightly corrected version of your map and see what you think of it and why. I'm a microclimate fanatic as I'm always pushing boundaries on palms and plants, so your map was extremely interesting to me. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the weather and microclimates from both living all around the southern half of Florida and from spending way too much time studying historical weather data, lol.

Anyway, here it is, so please tell me if and where you think I'm wrong. Although somewhat helpful, I don't think you can necessarily go by how an area presently looks. Affluent, beachy areas may have tons of coconut palms but aren't necessarily as warm as some less affluent areas of mainly palmettos and native vegetation. For example, parts of Sarasota look much more tropical vegetation-wise than Englewood or Stuart, but they're generally colder. Because of Belle Glade's climate and the many tropical plants and palms available nearby, and although it has has much lower winter nighttime temperatures than Palm City, it appears way more tropical. St. Petersburg's Albert Whitted Airport, on the water and east of the downtown heat zone, makes St. Petersburg appear much warmer than 95% of the peninsula actually is. In spite of downtown St. Pete's seemingly warm nighttime temperatures (which are warmer than Sarasota, it's January highs are too cool to facilitate a 10a-type look. On many cold nights, the temperature in Palm Beach may be 15 degrees warmer than Punta Gorda, which in my mind puts them in a totally different zone (see map). Palm Beach is warmer (at night and on cold nights) than Homestead.

Also, the historical data for many areas is based on the nearest airport, so the records for some areas are fairly inaccurate (e.g. St. Petersburg, Englewood, Boca Grande, Tequesta, the Everglades, etc.).

[naraj]

FYI, I just guessed as far as the Everglades go, but I think the rest is pretty accurate. I'm calling the greenish area 11a.

[palmsOrl]

@ Jimbean. I love your Florida growing zone map think it's the best growing zone map available.

As far as what will grow and where, longterm, Here is what I believe is a slightly corrected version of your map and see what you think of it and why. I'm a microclimate fanatic as I'm always pushing boundaries on palms and plants, so your map was extremely interesting to me. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the weather and microclimates from both living all around the southern half of Florida and from spending way too much time studying historical weather data, lol.

Anyway, here it is, so please tell me if and where you think I'm wrong. Although somewhat helpful, I don't think you can necessarily go by how an area presently looks. Affluent, beachy areas may have tons of coconut palms but aren't necessarily as warm as some less affluent areas of mainly palmettos and native vegetation. For example, parts of Sarasota look much more tropical vegetation-wise than Englewood or Stuart, but they're generally colder. Because of Belle Glade's climate and the many tropical plants and palms available nearby, and although it has has much lower winter nighttime temperatures than Palm City, it appears way more tropical. St. Petersburg's Albert Whitted Airport, on the water and east of the downtown heat zone, makes St. Petersburg appear much warmer than 95% of the peninsula actually is. In spite of downtown St. Pete's seemingly warm nighttime temperatures (which are warmer than Sarasota, it's January highs are too cool to facilitate a 10a-type look. On many cold nights, the temperature in Palm Beach may be 15 degrees warmer than Punta Gorda, which in my mind puts them in a totally different zone (see map). Palm Beach is warmer (at night and on cold nights) than Homestead.

Also, the historical data for many areas is based on the nearest airport, so the records for some areas are fairly inaccurate (e.g. St. Petersburg, Englewood, Boca Grande, Tequesta, the Everglades, etc.).

I like the map, but for the Orlando metro area specifically, there should be at least a small area of zone 10 (10a) for the urban area. The urban area is a strong 10a while the inner suburbs are still zone 10a for the most part. This is, of course, a recent development, due to human influence, but it exists nonetheless. I believe the downtown Orlando area average lows on the coldest nights of the year are roughly identical to Ft. Myers, though daytime and nighttime averages are higher year round in Ft Myers, due to latitude. The area already has plenty of 10a indicator plants, which will only increase in the future. WELL outside of the city is a totally different story. Annual freezes are still the norm, well outside the city, in my observation.

[buzzmonkey]

That map looks really good to me, based on my experience living in Pinellas, Sarasota, Alachua and Broward Couties for the past many, many decades.

[Jimbean]

@ Jimbean. I love your Florida growing zone map think it's the best growing zone map available.

As far as what will grow and where, longterm, Here is what I believe is a slightly corrected version of your map and see what you think of it and why. I'm a microclimate fanatic as I'm always pushing boundaries on palms and plants, so your map was extremely interesting to me. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the weather and microclimates from both living all around the southern half of Florida and from spending way too much time studying historical weather data, lol.

Anyway, here it is, so please tell me if and where you think I'm wrong. Although somewhat helpful, I don't think you can necessarily go by how an area presently looks. Affluent, beachy areas may have tons of coconut palms but aren't necessarily as warm as some less affluent areas of mainly palmettos and native vegetation. For example, parts of Sarasota look much more tropical vegetation-wise than Englewood or Stuart, but they're generally colder. Because of Belle Glade's climate and the many tropical plants and palms available nearby, and although it has has much lower winter nighttime temperatures than Palm City, it appears way more tropical. St. Petersburg's Albert Whitted Airport, on the water and east of the downtown heat zone, makes St. Petersburg appear much warmer than 95% of the peninsula actually is. In spite of downtown St. Pete's seemingly warm nighttime temperatures (which are warmer than Sarasota, it's January highs are too cool to facilitate a 10a-type look. On many cold nights, the temperature in Palm Beach may be 15 degrees warmer than Punta Gorda, which in my mind puts them in a totally different zone (see map). Palm Beach is warmer (at night and on cold nights) than Homestead.

Also, the historical data for many areas is based on the nearest airport, so the records for some areas are fairly inaccurate (e.g. St. Petersburg, Englewood, Boca Grande, Tequesta, the Everglades, etc.).

Fair enough, I see your argument. Check out my county maps and tell me what you think of them:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44561-best-microclimate-in-central-florida/page-3

[SubTropicRay]

http://plantrealflorida.org/plant-communities/

Here's an interesting map dating back to 1967 from the Native Florida Plant Society.

[Jimbean]

@ Jimbean. I love your Florida growing zone map think it's the best growing zone map available.

As far as what will grow and where, longterm, Here is what I believe is a slightly corrected version of your map and see what you think of it and why. I'm a microclimate fanatic as I'm always pushing boundaries on palms and plants, so your map was extremely interesting to me. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the weather and microclimates from both living all around the southern half of Florida and from spending way too much time studying historical weather data, lol.

Anyway, here it is, so please tell me if and where you think I'm wrong. Although somewhat helpful, I don't think you can necessarily go by how an area presently looks. Affluent, beachy areas may have tons of coconut palms but aren't necessarily as warm as some less affluent areas of mainly palmettos and native vegetation. For example, parts of Sarasota look much more tropical vegetation-wise than Englewood or Stuart, but they're generally colder. Because of Belle Glade's climate and the many tropical plants and palms available nearby, and although it has has much lower winter nighttime temperatures than Palm City, it appears way more tropical. St. Petersburg's Albert Whitted Airport, on the water and east of the downtown heat zone, makes St. Petersburg appear much warmer than 95% of the peninsula actually is. In spite of downtown St. Pete's seemingly warm nighttime temperatures (which are warmer than Sarasota, it's January highs are too cool to facilitate a 10a-type look. On many cold nights, the temperature in Palm Beach may be 15 degrees warmer than Punta Gorda, which in my mind puts them in a totally different zone (see map). Palm Beach is warmer (at night and on cold nights) than Homestead.

Also, the historical data for many areas is based on the nearest airport, so the records for some areas are fairly inaccurate (e.g. St. Petersburg, Englewood, Boca Grande, Tequesta, the Everglades, etc.).

I like the map, but for the Orlando metro area specifically, there should be at least a small area of zone 10 (10a) for the urban area. The urban area is a strong 10a while the inner suburbs are still zone 10a for the most part. This is, of course, a recent development, due to human influence, but it exists nonetheless. I believe the downtown Orlando area average lows on the coldest nights of the year are roughly identical to Ft. Myers, though daytime and nighttime averages are higher year round in Ft Myers, due to latitude. The area already has plenty of 10a indicator plants, which will only increase in the future. WELL outside of the city is a totally different story. Annual freezes are still the norm, well outside the city, in my observation.

As I was drawing up isotherm maps for interior central Florida, I was curious to see how much the urban heat island effect has had in Orlando since the population has increased significantly (estimated) since 1995. By compiling the data from the stations I have ran decade comparisons to spot trends in relative temperature differences.

I have found that the area for the metro Orlando station has warmed up relative to other sites, but only by 1.5F. I have found that the international airport was a good average indicator for the Orlando area, which I have not found any indication of a warming trend relative to other sites. However, metro Orlando has been consistently warmer for the past 20 years by roughly ~1.5F.

Considering that there will probably be an influx of retiring baby boom generation that will move to the area, the heat island might expand outward somewhat, however I sense that actual temperatures recorded at that station will not increase relatively.

[Jimbean]

(double posted)

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jimbean

[palmsOrl]

Good observations Jim. I think Orlando Int'l airport is generally a good representation of the Orlando suburbs, while the Executive Airport represents the full brunt of the heat island effect downtown. I definitely agree with about 1.5F increase over the past 20-30 years based on OIA data. I need to research the Executive Airport data and post my conclusions(will post in the next couple days).

The most extreme example I can think of off the top of my head was 2010. In January OIA got down to 25F while Orl Exec only reached 29. In Dec 2010 OIA hit 24F and again the Executive Airport bottomed out at 29F. More later...

[Jimbean]

Good observations Jim. I think Orlando Int'l airport is generally a good representation of the Orlando suburbs, while the Executive Airport represents the full brunt of the heat island effect downtown. I definitely agree with about 1.5F increase over the past 20-30 years based on OIA data. I need to research the Executive Airport data and post my conclusions(will post in the next couple days).

The most extreme example I can think of off the top of my head was 2010. In January OIA got down to 25F while Orl Exec only reached 29. In Dec 2010 OIA hit 24F and again the Executive Airport bottomed out at 29F. More later...

I have seen all of that already, multiple times... I am still doing a map for orange county, only this time I am using a less flawed method. I've learned one method for doing these kinds of maps by doing the Orlando area; it has been a learning experience.