butia x parajubaea cocoides: At what temperature does it show leaf damage?

[Sandy Loam]

Apparently, there are relatively few owners of the hybrid butia capitata (or odorata) x parajubaea cocoides. For those of you who own one, what has been your experience as regards leaf burn. At what low temperature do you experience any more than slight damage to the foliage?

I am aware of one that was damaged during the December cold snap in northern California, but it was a small one. Any other reports would be useful and much appreciated.

Thank you.

[buffy]

Mine were damaged at 26F with snow last year.

[Sandy Loam]

Hi Buffy. How much damage did yours show at 26 degrees Fahrenheit? Was it total defoliation or just burning on the leaf tips? Was 26 F for just a matter of minutes or was it a prolonged freeze?

I see that you are not far from the Dallas area. If so, you are much colder than me. My winter temperatures are perhaps more like those of Houston. I have certainly never seen snow here. Do you need to cover your BxPJC a couple of nights each winter? I was really hoping that it would be hardy enough to avoid any covering -- ever. If it is hardy like a Syagrus Romanzoffiana, I would never have to cover it here on those unique cold events.

I look forward to your comments. Thanks.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

You can find some valuable information from Edith Bergstrom, she grows three BxPC, and all are hardy enough to handle the cold at her place. I've seen them last Summer, they're in perfect shape while right next to them a phoenix rupicola was burned pretty bad. To give you an example of the degree of cold, see http://www.palmgardensbergstrom.com/freeze_2007/06-08-article.pdf, this is a nice article on the damage the 2007 freeze did to her garden.

You should also check the freeze hardiness section on this palm at http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/3269-butia-x-parajubaea/. Seems it can take dry freezes down to the low 20's but is sensitive to ice on the leaves.

Edit: while reading the article, I was able to extract the info for BxPC:

Butia x Parajubaea, 5% burn damage after the following conditions:

Twelve December nights were between 26° and 32°. The remaining were in the 30s and 40s. We had five nights below 32° in early January before dropping to 23°, 17° and 18° (twice), on successive nights, (January 12-15th). That was followed by seven more nights below freezing, one down to 24°. The rest remained in the 30s and 40s. February saw four freezes and four other nights in the 30s, but most nights were in the 40s. March had one freeze and three nights in the 30s. April had only one night in the 30s, but many in the 40s.

A washingtonia in her garden got 10% damage, so slightly more than the BxPC.

[Sandy Loam]

Thanks, Axel. I will read all those sources and I really appreciate the excerpt. Although hybrids can exhibit significant variation from one to another, I don't expect a BxPJC to receive any damage here, based on the description you provided above.

I must also read the article for information on the growth rate of the BxPJC. Dick in Walnut Creek, CA has a thread on palmtalk about his BxPJC growing extremely quickly. However, his may be an exception due to the vast variation from one hybrid to another.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Thanks, Axel. I will read all those sources and I really appreciate the excerpt. Although hybrids can exhibit significant variation from one to another, I don't expect a BxPJC to receive any damage here, based on the description you provided above.

I must also read the article for information on the growth rate of the BxPJC. Dick in Walnut Creek, CA has a thread on palmtalk about his BxPJC growing extremely quickly. However, his may be an exception due to the vast variation from one hybrid to another.

I have one, it is the fastest palm I own bar none.

[Kailua_Krish]

I had a problem with this one if we had rain before a freeze. The spear would pull for the first few years every winter and it slowed down the plant a lot. It seems to have outgrown this though and now has started to pick up some speed.

[tank]

I had a problem with this one if we had rain before a freeze. The spear would pull for the first few years every winter and it slowed down the plant a lot. It seems to have outgrown this though and now has started to pick up some speed.

Mine seems to have the same problem. Had a little frost and half the spear crapped out. Seems to be fine though. Very similar to what happens to young mules. Hopefully it will outgrow it as well. Gave this palm some prime real estate so I hope it doesn't turn out to be a dud. Looks perfect, other than the spear being a bit beat up.

[Zeeth]

Can you Florida guys post some pics of you BXP.c's? I'm curious to see if they look much different from the California ones.

[mjff]

My experience was dry cold it can handle into the high teens, frost or snow and you were going to have leaf damage. I'm growing several more, but leaving them in the greenhouse until they trunk at which point they should be much cold hardier if my experience with other palms is any indication.

[Jon T]

My experiences mirror Tank's and Krishnaraoji88's. I was impatient enough to plant a sweet tiny strap-leafed butia x parajubaea from Patric, and it's been in the ground for two cold winters here. I too lost the spear last spring after a half-dozen Dec-Jan 21-24F temps and no protection most of those nights. There was no significant foliage damage, and the plant recovered to produce two decent strap leaves last summer.

And now, early this December we had two nights that bottomed out at 17 and 19F. Though I wasn't smart enough to cover it on our first cold night at 26 degrees, I have since religiously protected it with three thick jumbo beach towels tucked nicely over a snazzy framework that keeps it almost toasty. BUT I noticed that the cute little new spear it's been pushing through our record-warm January is tan on one side, like Tank described. No frost or snow, just one uncovered night of 26 apparently did that.

I'm thinking it's just too small to be planted out in my 9a climate, and there's not enough caliper to the "trunk" to protect the growing point. I have seen this in other cocosoids including parajubaea torallyii, and even tough ones like jubaea and butia will show up with latent spear damage in spring after zero leaf burn. The good news is that they usually recover.

And Sandy Loam, you should be fine if you cover a butia x parajubaea carefully on cold nights, but remember all bets are off if you plant too small or get one of those every-twenty-years 8a events.

[mulungu]

Hi Sandy Loam,

My experiences are fairly similar to those of others who have shared here. I am in a suburb on the outskirts of San Antonio, TX about 20 miles northeast of downtown. Although my town is an exact latitude match for the University of Florida campus, we generally get colder than Gainesville in winter. In fact, in bad Arctic blasts we can dip to the bottom of zone 8b and even into 8a range temps for several hours. In the polar vortex cold event in January, my young Butia odorata X P. cocoides, about 6 feet overall height, took an overnight low of 14*F without protection, with about 60% burn to the fronds (about the same level of damage as to locally common Washingtonia). Before that, there was no visible damage with multiple dry, brief freezes to the mid 20s, and one to the low 20s. Although freezing precipitation is uncommon here, this year there was a subsequent ice storm and more recently, soft hail (graupel), which brought the frond damage up to about 70%. However, I am not very concerned about it... the spear is tight for now, and the palm is not giving off precarious vibes (unlike a baby B. paraguayensis x P. cocoides, which defoliated, lost its spear, and appears to have one foot in the grave). I cannot help but feel that if your climate's winter temperatures can sustain queen palms long term (which my area does not), B X P will almost certainly be cold hardy for you as well.

[Sandy Loam]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Where do you get the notion that parajubaea doesn't like clay? You can grow parajubaea in any kind of soil provided it's not a bog or swamp. They're street trees in Ecuador. About as low maintenance as it gets. Mine rarely get fertilized and they don't get any special care, yet they thrive and look better than any other palm I have.

The cross BxPC should a slam dunk for you if you protect it from unusual cold, well worth spending $300 on.

[tank]

Can you Florida guys post some pics of you BXP.c's? I'm curious to see if they look much different from the California ones.

My little guy planted out last summer

[ErikSJI]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Where do you get the notion that parajubaea doesn't like clay? You can grow parajubaea in any kind of soil provided it's not a bog or swamp. They're street trees in Ecuador. About as low maintenance as it gets. Mine rarely get fertilized and they don't get any special care, yet they thrive and look better than any other palm I have.

The cross BxPC should a slam dunk for you if you protect it from unusual cold, well worth spending $300 on.

I am still in search of a steady source of Parajubaea pollen to get more of these out there. How are yours looking Axel?

[Zeeth]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Where do you get the notion that parajubaea doesn't like clay? You can grow parajubaea in any kind of soil provided it's not a bog or swamp. They're street trees in Ecuador. About as low maintenance as it gets. Mine rarely get fertilized and they don't get any special care, yet they thrive and look better than any other palm I have.

The cross BxPC should a slam dunk for you if you protect it from unusual cold, well worth spending $300 on.

I am still in search of a steady source of Parajubaea pollen to get more of these out there. How are yours looking Axel?

That would be cool! You should also work on some Syagrus X Parajubaea. (I wonder if S. amara X Parajubaea is possible).

[ErikSJI]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Where do you get the notion that parajubaea doesn't like clay? You can grow parajubaea in any kind of soil provided it's not a bog or swamp. They're street trees in Ecuador. About as low maintenance as it gets. Mine rarely get fertilized and they don't get any special care, yet they thrive and look better than any other palm I have.

The cross BxPC should a slam dunk for you if you protect it from unusual cold, well worth spending $300 on.

I am still in search of a steady source of Parajubaea pollen to get more of these out there. How are yours looking Axel?

That would be cool! You should also work on some Syagrus X Parajubaea. (I wonder if S. amara X Parajubaea is possible).

I have a tree climber so I have no problem going up some queens. I just need the pollen and ample amounts.

[Phoenikakias]

I would not be so sure in every case of clay-soil and in every case of a climate with cool-wet season.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Where do you get the notion that parajubaea doesn't like clay? You can grow parajubaea in any kind of soil provided it's not a bog or swamp. They're street trees in Ecuador. About as low maintenance as it gets. Mine rarely get fertilized and they don't get any special care, yet they thrive and look better than any other palm I have.

The cross BxPC should a slam dunk for you if you protect it from unusual cold, well worth spending $300 on.

I am still in search of a steady source of Parajubaea pollen to get more of these out there. How are yours looking Axel?

There's another spathe coming up on my parajubaea cocoides. Unlike the folks in Southern California, mine only blooms once a year. I will be glad to collect pollen. It's currently loaded with a crop of parajubaea x butia. Since my butia and parajubaea bloom at the same time, it makes it easy to do the cross here. But it produces plenty of pollen, so I'll be glad to share.

[Alberto]

What are everyone's experiences with this palm's soil requirements? The Butia parent should not have any problem with my clay soil, but the parajubaea cocoides parent may prefer high draining, coarse material as soil.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks.

Some of my BxP shows clearly signs of K deficiency and other growing between them not, So i conclude some trees have a better adaptability to my sandy acid soil the others; With this palms I began with a K supplementation.

[Tropicdoc]

Good luck with the butia x parajubaea, Axel. I can tell you there is demand for these down here in the 9a gulf south. They look nicer than the mule imo.

[Alicehunter2000]

Any pictures of trunking individuals?

[Tropicdoc]

Still waiting on syagrus x parajybaea I paid lots of money for last year to Tim hopper

[Tropicdoc]

Just orderd two butia x parajub from Patrick Schafer ...... Very expensive! Won't let them see below 32 F until they outgrow a 25 gallon pot

[Alicehunter2000]

Pictures......they are worth a thousand words. ...

[Tropicdoc]

OK David I will take some pics of their growth in 25 gallon tubs. They are going to overwinter in a pop up greenhouse this year. I am moving to my new place in 2 days. They will go in the ground April 1st. Not sure where yet.

[Alicehunter2000]

New place? .... sounds exciting.

Does anyone have a comparison between B.Paraguyensis X COCOIDES and B. odorata X COCOIDES ?

[Tropicdoc]

On the left is the dick Douglas palm odorata the next one is Patricks palm Paraguayensis

[gilles06]

those are beauty!

[Alicehunter2000]

Paraguayensis

o the two pictured are located near one another. Patrick's yard looks like desert whereas Dicks yard is more Pacific Northwest looking. I wonder if t he growing conditions effected the look of the palms. Dicks looks more lax leaf. It would be nice to have a size and trunk comparison between the two. People seem to gravitate toward the odorata .....does paraguayensis

Have same size hairy trunk? Is the overall palm smaller as would be expected? What are the differences between the two?

[Tropicdoc]

I wish I knew the answers to these questions. I can tell you I much prefer the look of Patrick's palm to Dick's. That big, fat trunk just doesn't do it for me. If my hybrids end up with that trunk, I will plant ginger underneath them to conceal the trunk.

[Zeeth]

Patrick's palm looks like the pictures of the Florida B. X P. that I've seen.

[ghar41]

On the left is the dick Douglas palm odorata the next one is Patricks palm Paraguayensis

Is the palm on the right Butia Paraguayensis X Parajubaea cocoides? If so, what is the location of the plant in the picture?

[Tropicdoc]

I think it is the Paraguay cross but I'm not sure it supposedly it is Patricks own palm

[Ben in Norcal]

Hi guys,

The one on the right is my picture. It's a plant local to me here in Concord, not on Patric's property. Patric lives several hours north of here. It is however one of Patric's crosses. If I was to guess I would say it is an odorata - I think he started doing the paraguayensis more recently. But, that's a guess.

Ben

[Sandy Loam]

So in post no. 29, the palm on the left photo and the palm in the right photo are the exact same hybrid. Wow.

[Ben in Norcal]

Potentially. I didn't think it was a paraguayensis cross, but the form does look different.

[swolf]

Different Butia (Odorata) parents have been used, so that's a variable too. My early observation is that the two Butia types produce similar hybrids but the Paraguayensis parent creates a smaller hybrid with a thinner base/trunk.

I hear cold hardiness varies but these hybrids are hard to beat all things considered. Maybe crosses with Sunkha will do a little better with severe frost&cold. I'm trying to grow a couple pure Sunkha but they're not doing too well (another subject as nothing seems to grow well under that Live Oak).

Steve

[Alicehunter2000]

Different Butia (Odorata) parents have been used, so that's a variable too. My early observation is that the two Butia types produce similar hybrids but the Paraguayensis parent creates a smaller hybrid with a thinner base/trunk.

Steve

That sound promising.....smaller/thinner