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Polar Vortex vs. Large Palms in Zone 9a


Alicehunter2000

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First I want to say that the data will also be entered into the Freeze Damage section for individual species. Pictures will be entered with my hand held but discussion will primarily be with laptop for ease of use. Hopefully pictures will be worth a thousand words. First up a ray of sunshine.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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D. cabadae and C. macrocarpa post-97-0-06963400-1389279837_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-25421500-1389279866_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-51351000-1389279927_thumb.jpg

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Nice. You must have had some serious heat going on under that tarp.

Tyler

Coastal Zone 9a

''Karma is a good girl, she just treats you exactly how you treat her"

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I used supplemental electric space heaters ran for 2 days......$25 each.....tarp around $50 .....a little over $100 total.post-97-0-03422500-1389300385_thumb.jpg.........plus electric.

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Well, I'd say that was a worthy investment. They look good.

Now I'd love to see how your unprotected palms fared.

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Woaa! Hold on there Axel .....before I get to trying to fulfill your morbid fascination for botanical necrosis. ....I have one more tarped palm that came through virtually unscathed. The only supplemental heat for this bizzy was some rope lights. This area is my best microclimate. post-97-0-31229300-1389374109_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-68089100-1389374137_thumb.jpg

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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How old are the three previous palms (Chambeyronia, Dypsis, Bizzi)? Any idea to protect them in the future?

Sincerely. Jean-Michel

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Good to see your place finally completed, and nice palms!

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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Thanks Frank, nice to be moved in.

Jean-Michel, these were planted about 9 months ago. It is there first winter. I'll continue to tarp them as long as possible ... after that they are on there own.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Woaa! Hold on there Axel .....before I get to trying to fulfill your morbid fascination for botanical necrosis. ....I have one more tarped palm that came through virtually unscathed. The only supplemental heat for this bizzy was some rope lights. This area is my best microclimate. attachicon.gif20140109_072813.jpgattachicon.gif20140110_091157.jpg

Let's see some fried palms. I've posted my share of fried palm photos after the early Dec freeze here in Norcal, now's your turn.

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My Dypsis cabadae always gets torched leaves every winter, even with the slightest hint of a frost. It will regrow a canopy by fall.

I didn't see that Chambeyronia in the plan, nice addition. Hopefully it transplants fine once it starts trying to grow above the screen.

Air heaters work well for me as well. I use two Honeywell HZ-0360 omnidirectional fan forced heaters for my two small greenhouses.

post-47-0-34887300-1389391484_thumb.jpg

These go for about $30 at your local Walmart.

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

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The tale of 3 C. alba's .... the first one is the 20 foot tall green one that I got from Ken it looks pretty fried.

post-97-0-93768600-1389544829_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-71672100-1389544885_thumb.jpg

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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The next one is about 15 ft. Away and much more silver. It looks virtually unscathed. It is about 10 ft. Overall. post-97-0-82876200-1389545264_thumb.jpg

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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The last one almost didn't survive the transplant last March. After cutting the top off pulling the spear and pouring peroxide. ...it survived and has been growing ever since. Wrapped this one with a thick blanket and it is looking pretty good.post-97-0-74850100-1389545611_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-92164700-1389545653_thumb.jpg

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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What a shame on that tall C. alba, I hear a lot about how tough those are but that one looks pretty fried, is there a lot of variation in these depending on the source? Hope it pulls through for you.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Your Bismark looks great. They are much more cold tolerant than I thought. Damage to my Queen is still setting in, I reached a low of 25 but 15 hrs below freezing and it's looking like a 30-60% burn on my large one.

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David,

The tallest alba is also the most exposed in this advective event. If it were a radiational event it would have seen the least damage all else equal(genetics). Wind carries heat away in an advective event, and that tall one saw the most wind. It is also possible that the silver forms are a little more hardy, but I expect this was about exposure. Of the canopy palms you put in I thought the alba would be most tender vs sabals, livistonas, washies, mule etc... I still think the big one lives and will recover, but that foliage damage is disappointing... Your yard should get more cold resistant with time as it grows in and roots. These big palms need to root for a couple years before they get their best cold hardiness. I would have a plan going forward and adapt, perhaps more mid height windbreak to protect more from advective events. My yard is warmer than yours, but I also push zones and try to protect. One simple strategy that can help is to leave all dead fronds/foliage on each fall and don't trim till spring. Its a simple thing, but you would be surprised now many don't get it.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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The tale of 3 C. alba's .... the first one is the 20 foot tall green one that I got from Ken it looks pretty fried.

attachicon.gif20140112_085338.jpgattachicon.gif20140112_085305.jpg

That tall green alba has plenty of green left, I bet it's ok and will regrow most of its crown by mid Summer. It will get hardier over time once established and no longer spoiled by South Florida weather.

I am not surprised the silver one has less damage, the more silver, the hardier they are, same as with bismarckia.

You did pretty well given the temps you experienced. Definitely post these in the hardiness forum, this is really valuable info. I've always maintained that Gaston Torres is right, the Brazilian copernicia are much hardier than the cuban one, especially alba.

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Thank Ammon, I have learned not to give up on these (as is evident by the 3rd one I posted). I think that there is variation as the tall one was from Ken down near Homestead. The other two were from Fishbranch and are much more silver. Ken's was a specimen palm that was dug from someones home down there whereas the Fishbranch ones were grown from seed on a farm.

Legend, yes my queens are looking worse and worse as the days progress. Hopefully they grow so fast that they will pull through as well. I too am pleasantly surprised that the Bizzy did as well as it did. I also have a couple of small ones in the ground that I put buckets over. Both look untouched. I think Bismarkia is my favorite marginal palm in this area. They love the soil and conditions here for the most part...they grow almost as fast as a queen.

Tom, good observation. Yes it probably got blasted the most by winds....but the smaller one got a lot of wind as well. There was almost no escaping the wind during this event. The smaller alba was healthier going into the winter whereas the larger one was showing signs of needing to be fertilized. This also may be a factor as well as the genetics. Everything else you mentioned is very true, after a few years and more protection from the north things should harden up some. Figure Murphys' Law for my first winter....Polar Vortex <_<

Axel, I have more to share with the other palms in the ground. I feel fortunate that things are not as bad as they could be at this point. I am hoping that over the next couple of months things dont start dying on me. Not out of the woods yet ....and we still have the rest of the winter to think about. Could you go into detail about the Gaston Torres info. ....don't think I saw that info. before.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Livistonia saribus looks about 30 percent fried on its fronds. Some of this damage was already present from the transplant back in March.post-97-0-76566000-1389561720_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-99294600-1389561764_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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A little bit less damage on L. nitda maybe 20% on fronds. I am a little bit surprised that this one showed this much damage. It also had some of this from its transplant as well.

post-97-0-49852800-1389562303_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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The big Sabal causiarum looks pretty much untouched at this point...I am really hoping there is no latent damage. I was worried because it appeared darker green than usual....however I'm starting to think it may be a normal reaction to the cold and will not progress further into tissue necrosis.

post-97-0-32377900-1389563154_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-85078500-1389563193_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-06979200-1389563230_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Good news Dave... you've only got about 45 more days to hold your breath... before our version of "winter" is over. Your plants look great, especially since they were installed recently. Give them a little time to get established and they should be rock solid. Did you lose any spears on your mules? These guys seem to always lose their spears on the first hard freeze after a transplant or when first planted out. They ALWAYS seem to bounce back with vigor.

Jason

Gainesville, Florida

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Ooh...didn't know that ...all the mules look unfazed at this point....will check the two I can reach....is it always better to pull spears and treat or can spears be left and pushed out on their own? A lot of the trees are too tall to reach.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Usually isn't a big deal but keep an eye on them. If you can get a hold of them, give them a tug in a week or so. They usually will push out of any damage but it doesn't hurt to give them a peroxide dousing if you can access the spear.

Jason

Gainesville, Florida

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On your other palms, its probably better to pull the spear and then inoculate with peroxide, if possible (IMHO). Obviously, every palm is different and some are more susceptible to fungus than others

Jason

Gainesville, Florida

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2- 25 foot tall Washingtonians robusta's are showing around 50 percent leaf damage at this point. Expect full recovery but it is disappointing because they were very healthy going into the Freeze. post-97-0-94453200-1389652103_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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January 6, 2014

High: Low: Average:

Temperature: °F 63.6 °F 25.7 °F 37.6 °F

Dew Point: °F 62.0 °F 4.0 °F 23.5 °F

Humidity: 95% 33% 60%

Wind Speed: 19.0mph - 8.6mph

Wind Gust: 25.0mph - -

Wind: NNW - - NW

Pressure: 30.52in 29.88in -

Precipitation: 0.05in

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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January 7, 2014

Current: High: Low: Average:

Temperature: 53.6 °F 33.9 °F 19.7 °F 26.4 °F

Dew Point: 49.0 °F 12.0 °F 2.0 °F 6.3 °F

Humidity: 83% 50% 32% 42%

Wind Speed: 4.0mph 12.0mph - 4.4mph

Wind Gust: 12.0mph 17.0mph - -

Wind: NNW - - NNW Pressure: 30.02in 30.64in 30.50in -

Precipitation: 0.00in

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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January 8, 2014

Current: High: Low: Average:

Temperature: 53.6 °F 48.5 °F 23.7 °F 36.7 °F

Dew Point: 49.0 °F 23.0 °F 11.0 °F 15.8 °F

Humidity: 83% 72% 24% 45%

Wind Speed: 4.0mph 9.0mph - 2.8mph

Wind Gust: 12.0mph 14.0mph - -

Wind: NNW - - NNE

Pressure: 30.02in 30.53in 30.37in -

Precipitation: 0.00in

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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18 1/2 hours below freezing......... then 2 hours barely above freezing.......... then 16 1/2 hours back below freezing.

Lowest temperature recorded during the event was 19.7 F. or - 6.83 C.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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David, your palms are acclimatizing. As i remember they came from different growing conditions. In a couple of months they will looking better :)

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David,

When I went through the dec 2010 cold I told myself afterwards that as things grow in it will get better, the yard will be more resilient each passing year to cold. This year was the bottom for you, as your jungle grows in the thermal protection will get better every year. If anything does, replace it with another (smaller) sabal causiarum(they grow pretty quickly) or another tough palm.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I feel your pain David...

I took a big hit winter 2010 from the cold and inproper placement...

That winter tought me alot.

I betcha I lost 80% of my collection...

So far just foliar damage right?

Nothin mushy or spear pull?

I think ur in good shape... just cosmetic.

It will grow out of it...

Get some bags of fert piled up n ready...

Whats your forcast'd low for friday morning?

No pun intended...

But were supposed to get down a lil bit too....

-Ray.

Brandon, FL

27.95°N 82.28°W (Elev. 62 ft)

Zone9 w/ canopy

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Rafael, yes they came from 3 different areas in Florida. Miami, East of Orlando and South of Orlando in the interior of the state.

Miami area was Ken's palms and included the Bizmarkia, Tall C. alba, C. macrocarpa, D. cabadae and large Beaucarnea recurvata.

I have shown pictures of the everything except the large B. recurvata .......... this palmy looking non-palm was one of the biggest suprises for me. It took those temperatures like a champ with just a small sheet tied over the main head. I can't believe that it took such low temps without damage. I guess these are a lot hardier

than many people might think...especially at this size. I really expected the main stems to turn to mush and that it would have to regrow new trunks from the large base mass at the bottom. A very pleasant suprise.post-97-0-21431000-1389810555_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-18573300-1389810582_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Thanks Tom, might thoughts exactly. This winter was kind of trial by "fire". It reminds me of the old adage that "Whatever does't kill you, only makes you stronger". I hope as things harden up there will be less stress next time. Funny you mentioned another small S. causiarum. I had one in a pot that was difficult to place in the yard a couple of months ago...I decided to plant it right next to a small D. decary ....well as you might have guessed..the Dypsis looks like it won't make it, but the little Sabal seedling is chugging right along.

Here is one of the 3 small Triangle's that were in the ground.post-97-0-29750900-1389811483_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Ray, wow 80% :bemused::sick: ......don't think I could have handled something like that. It is incredible that those years were so bad down state in peninsular Florida but the coast up in the Panhandle didn't see below 25 F. (during those 2 years). Long freezes during that time, but no real hard freeze like this last Polar Vortex event.

Tonight and Fri. night (I think?) it is supposed to drop to just below the freezing mark...nothing too severe here. Inland it's supposed to be in the upper 20's F.
post-97-0-05725100-1389812102_thumb.jpg

This Arenga engleri sailed through the event with a light sheet. No damage.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Ray, wow 80% :bemused::sick: ......don't think I could have handled something like that. It is incredible that those years were so bad down state in peninsular Florida but the coast up in the Panhandle didn't see below 25 F. (during those 2 years). Long freezes during that time, but no real hard freeze like this last Polar Vortex event.

Tonight and Fri. night (I think?) it is supposed to drop to just below the freezing mark...nothing too severe here. Inland it's supposed to be in the upper 20's F.

attachicon.gif20140112_091007.jpg

This Arenga engleri sailed through the event with a light sheet. No damage.

David,

Ray is just north of me and if I recall he was zone pushing a 9b zone, like me. I learned that my front yard was going to be a cold spot, no zone 10 palms survived out there, and I didn't replace them but planted zone 9 palms in their place. I also added a bunch of 9a or better palms on the front and sides. My zone 10 palms now have some decent live oak protection. I will still have plenty of good sized palms, even if I lose every zone 10 palm. I still insist on pushing my back yard 1/2 zone, its my tropical jungle area, but I have plenty of palms that would laugh at 25F on the sides and front. My low the past 4 years, including 2010 was 28F with a good frost, so it doesn't get very cold here mostly. All of my losses in 2010 were small palms, less than 15 gallon size that were in the ground only 4-6 months. The lesson for me was small palms don't meet the cold hardy expectations and even larger ones that aren't established for 2 summers will be less cold hardy than they ultimately will be. But in a radiational freeze, big palms with the growing point high off the ground are the way to go. :greenthumb: 3 warm winters later, things are grown in, there is good overhead protection and wind break. If I were you, I'd keep planting smaller palms to grow up under your bigger ones. These will keep the feet of the big ones warmer and they will benefit from the overhead cover, like a synergy. Think dense plantings around the edges of the yard and put in some that will never be tall. I have sabal minor, serenoa repens, arenga engleri etc to ensure low to mid level windbreak.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Tom I'm taking the same approach. All your suggestions are spot on we are just a half zone apart. In your opinion what 9b palms would you try if you were me.

Here are three L. decora 10 ft. clear trunk.....all the damage was from transplant. ...no damage from cold....these are winner's.post-97-0-64603600-1389903377_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-32171200-1389903489_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-18346300-1389903518_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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