Seems pretty obvious that the dypsis heteromorpha in cultivation is not the real heteromorpha. If it was the real one, it should perform similarly to baronii, and should be quite difficult to grow in Florida and easy to grow in the cooler Summer climates of California. But this is not the case. I have no idea what the heteromorpha in cultivation actually is, but it's clearly not the heteromorpha from the moist high elevation forests of the Marojejy at 1300-2200m. The true heteromorpha is supposed to be a higher elevation form of onilahensis or baronii, and both onilahensis and baronii actually perform much better in cooler climates than the fake one in cultivation.

So is the true heteromorpha actually in cultivation, and if so, who's got it and where?

I should point out, I grow the version that JD Andersen sells, and my lasteliana highland form and onilahensis droopy form outperforms this thing by leaps and bounds. I've seen Darold Petty's one, it looks sad. The NZ folks report these as difficult down there as well.

Axel,

Are you basing this on the way the palm grows in CA or is the description of heteromorpha different than what we have? Palms grow differently in CA than they do in habitat and just because something should grow a certain way here doesn't mean it will.

Axel, how long have you them and how many have you tried?

matt,those are the ones you're growing,right? they are looking great & growing fast, aren't they?

Yeah, they're vigorous growers in full sun for me. I'm curious if someone can confirm or dispute the identity of these now that some of them are flowering in cultivation.

So, is this palm described in POM? If so, do the ones that we grow here differ in their characteristics? I suspect there may be variants of the same palm floating around, both here & in Australia.

Nice one Matty. Love the fuzz & the recurved leaves. You didn't have to dig the hole yourself for a palm that large, did you?

Luckily these went in as 1 gallons a few years ago. I barely managed to dig the hole, Bret

Axel, how long have you them and how many have you tried?

I have one and I've not had mine long enough to draw any real conclusions. My question is based on the feedback of a number of growers in cooler Summer climates North of Point Conception and talking to a couple of New Zealand growers. Do you have a strain that grows well for you in SLO?

Axel,

Are you basing this on the way the palm grows in CA or is the description of heteromorpha different than what we have? Palms grow differently in CA than they do in habitat and just because something should grow a certain way here doesn't mean it will.

Actually, I should have phrased this post more as a question and hunch, because I don't really know, other than the anectotal reports and the lack of success in Norcal for what circulates in nurseries under the heteromorpha name. But without posting absolutes, my post wouldn't get all of Matty's colorful comments.

POM doesn't have any pictures, and says this palm has been in cultivation since 1959, so I wonder if there have been any recent wild collected seed batches or if seeds all come from domestic sources, in which case they've probably been selected from much lower elevations for success in Florida and Hawaii.

The one I have has very droopy leaves and seems to grow slow in my climate compared to both onilahensis and baronii. To me, this and other people's similar results suggests this is not likely to be a highland form at all.

Luckily these went in as 1 gallons a few years ago. I barely managed to dig the hole, Butthole Bret

Congrats on those beautiful heteromorpha and lovely butt metaphors, with the warm Summer nights you have I am not surprised they do so well for you.

I forgot to mention - this post is worth checking out in the context of heteromorpha IDs:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/38852-expedition-in-tsaratanana-madagascar/?hl=tsaratanana

your quote from Matt is different than his actual statement, axel.

Palm Mod Edit: Matt's comment was a little too colorful for my liking - it disappeared.

Seems pretty obvious that the dypsis heteromorpha in cultivation is not the real heteromorpha. If it was the real one, it should perform similarly to baronii, and should be quite difficult to grow in Florida and easy to grow in the cooler Summer climates of California. But this is not the case. I have no idea what the heteromorpha in cultivation actually is, but it's clearly not the heteromorpha from the moist high elevation forests of the Marojejy at 1300-2200m. The true heteromorpha is supposed to be a higher elevation form of onilahensis or baronii, and both onilahensis and baronii actually perform much better in cooler climates than the fake one in cultivation.

So is the true heteromorpha actually in cultivation, and if so, who's got it and where?

Why do think that they are not the true heteromorpha, besides your growing experience with them?

your quote from Matt is different than his actual statement, axel.

Eh, that's what it was when I posted the reply. I am not privy to the oddities of PalmTalk edits, some things are indeed bizarre. It was obviously a typo from Matty that got removed as I can't possibly imagine Matty calling anyone that. Perhaps the moderator can update my comment as well. But then the whole thing would kinda loose its charm.

Seems pretty obvious that the dypsis heteromorpha in cultivation is not the real heteromorpha. If it was the real one, it should perform similarly to baronii, and should be quite difficult to grow in Florida and easy to grow in the cooler Summer climates of California. But this is not the case. I have no idea what the heteromorpha in cultivation actually is, but it's clearly not the heteromorpha from the moist high elevation forests of the Marojejy at 1300-2200m. The true heteromorpha is supposed to be a higher elevation form of onilahensis or baronii, and both onilahensis and baronii actually perform much better in cooler climates than the fake one in cultivation.

So is the true heteromorpha actually in cultivation, and if so, who's got it and where?

Why do think that they are not the true heteromorpha, besides your growing experience with them?

Rich from NZ first mentioned in previous threads that he didn't believe that whatever was circulating was a highland species. I since asked around if people in cooler Summer climates where baronii thrives have had good performance from this palm, and the consensus seems to be no. If you read POM, it actually suggests it's a higher elevation version of baronii or onilahensis, so you'd think it would do even better in cool Summer climates. But there is no picture in POM. Since this palm is supposed to be in circulation since 1959, perhaps it's time to get some Madagascar collected seed and see if it turns out to be the same palm as the one in cultivation.

As I mentioned in a previous reply, this is just a guess, not quite as anus-centric as Matty suggests, but I certainly don't have anything else but lots of anectotal evidence that something is fowl here. Given the track record of other dypsis, I don't think what I am suggesting is really that far fetched.

Oh, and a better and more polite term for this is WAG, as in Wild Ass Guess, we follow those quite often in my line of work here in Silicon Valley and more often than not the WAGs can be quite accurate.

Axel, your theory is flawed in that it does not take into account the distribution of Baronii or Onilahensis on Madagascar verses limited distribution of Heteromorpha. When someone says Baronii grows great for them I don't take much from it because it grows from the coastal rainforest to drier highlands. Northern tip to central. So who is to say where the seed were collected. Onilahensis is even more distributed in Madagascar but in more drier areas it seems. I have 4-5 different Baroniis and Onilys growing in my yard. Some brown every winter and other stay dark green year round for example.

The main reasons to question the identity of these it that: 1. they are not "heteromorphic", and 2. they do not grow like other highland species in heat deprived habitats ie those that don't see much above 25c in summer. Unless you live in a heat deprived habitat you probably wouldn't appreciate how slow these can be. Not saying they are not heteromorpha by any means but there is definitely room for doubt. Just look at those pictures of heteromorpha from Tsaratanana. Look different to me, but photos can be very deceptive.

Axel, your theory is flawed in that it does not take into account the distribution of Baronii or Onilahensis on Madagascar verses limited distribution of Heteromorpha. When someone says Baronii grows great for them I don't take much from it because it grows from the coastal rainforest to drier highlands. Northern tip to central. So who is to say where the seed were collected. Onilahensis is even more distributed in Madagascar but in more drier areas it seems. I have 4-5 different Baroniis and Onilys growing in my yard. Some brown every winter and other stay dark green year round for example.

Yes, you're right, I thought about that. I have two forms of onilahensis, and they behave very differently. The droopy form is most definitely more cool tolerant and grows at a faster rate. The more rigid form is considerably slower in my climate.

Heteromorpha is possibly also more broadly distributed given they've recently been sighted in Tsaratanana. Even without the new sightings the elevation range is pretty broad. That might account for the variation, meaning the one in cultivation is collected from lower elevations and really optimized for warmer climates. But I smell foul given how these things behave and look.

I'd like to get my hands on the higher elevation form. When perusing rarepalmseeds.com, the description says it's not been sighted in the wild for 50 years and wasn't in cultivation, still makes me wonder where the seeds came from.

Jeff Marcus has tought me to question the identify of all dypsis given that seed sources in Madagascar can be tremendously unreliable when it comes to ID. Every single dypsis species I've encountered so far comes in a myriad of forms, which is further cause to question a given ID. Talk about biodiversity, we really need to work on preserving the entirety of the genus.

Bottom line is that for those of us in Summer heat deprived climates, labels set aside, having the right form of watever it might be is critical to success.

I was checking the temperature range for Tsaratanana, and it seems the that the highs are in the mid to high 80s for this week...

I was checking the temperature range for Tsaratanana, and it seems the that the highs are in the mid to high 80s for this week...

Well, for starters, the elevation of the city of is only 400m, and the highs and lows are essentially tropical, i.e. lows in the 70's, highs in the 80's, on par with Florida both temperature and rainfall wise. The recent sightings occured in the local Mountains around Tsaratanana which are obviously higher and therefore cooler. In fact, if you read www.palmeraie-union.com/mada.php which contains the original report, you will see that the expedition took place in the Mountain ranges that ondulate up and down between 1800m (valleys) et 2200m (peaks). Those are pretty high elevations, enough to seriously moderate the lower elevation heat. it's going to be colder up there than say upcountry Maui where they grow strawberries and get regular frost.

But even taking that into account, the current climate stats are not always all that meaningful. Evolution created the gene pool over millions of years, the higher elevations are just more likely to have been cooler at some previous geological time, thus providing more cool tolerant selections, not to mention the entire island used to be further south.

Axel, I just put a second one in the ground yesterday; the first planted about 6 weeks ago, but in Goleta; slightly warmer than Grover Beach. I have about the same amount of experience with them as you do. The first one in formed a new spear right away and has grown steadily but has not opened yet. As you can see from Matt's photos, this Palm is so cool looking once it get's going that it is worth waiting a little longer to let it get established and see what happens. Whatever species it turns out to be, I like it!

Axel, I just put a second one in the ground yesterday; the first planted about 6 weeks ago, but in Goleta; slightly warmer than Grover Beach. I have about the same amount of experience with them as you do. The first one in formed a new spear right away and has grown steadily but has not opened yet. As you can see from Matt's photos, this Palm is so cool looking once it get's going that it is worth waiting a little longer to let it get established and see what happens. Whatever species it turns out to be, I like it!

Perry, that is indeed an amazing palm. The one I have is actually variegated, which may be what is slowing it down. The fronds are super droopy.

However, my destiny includes an expedition to Madagascar to find all those truly higher elevation strains that should grow dynamite all over sea level Calif. Locations.

I 'm behind you 100% in achieving your Destiny in Madagascar! In the mean time don't give up on your heteromorpha; maybe add 1 or 2 more in Spring to increase the beauty of your garden.

Like most palms, and most clumping Dypsis, they are slow when young and speed up considerably once planted and gain a little size.

Axel

Let me know when you're planning the Madagascar trip as I may be interested if you don't want to travel alone.

Steve

Axel

Let me know when you're planning the Madagascar trip as I may be interested if you don't want to travel alone.

Steve

Send me a PM, this is definitely not going to happen alone. I have native fluency in fluent in French and a few connections through work there which makes Madagascar quite accessible to me. About 50% of my trip would be work related, but you would be welcome to join on the palm part of it.

Axel, get on the board man. The yearly board meeting for 2015 I heard is in Madagascar. Well, that's the rumor I heard - no confirmation from any BOD though.

Axel's observation of my Dypsis heteromorpha is correct. It is sad, and is a disappointment. I purchased two plants from JD Andersen Nursery, and neither plant is growing well for me. I believe that this palm (whatever the true identity) is a heat lover, and requires high temperatures to grow and advance.

I will most likely remove this cultivar from my in-ground plantings, and replace it with a very nice form of D. baronii. I will send the second one,( still potted) to San Diego county!

Darold, sign me up. I could use another

I had two planted. One that grew very fast and had about a foot of trunk on one stem. It was planted in mostly shade. It died two winters back as it rotted out. Weird. The other one is in mostly summer sun but has proven to be pretty slow so far. But it might be due to the fact it is planted in an area with not a lot of dirt as their is a boulder a few feet under the soil level.

Here's one I bought as D. heteromorpha. It survived, unscathed, last winter that roasted and finally killed my two D. onilahensis droopy leaf form that were planted in a similar location. It gets full all day sun and has been a solid grower.

Here's one I bought as D. heteromorpha. It survived, unscathed, last winter that roasted and finally killed my two D. onilahensis droopy leaf form that were planted in a similar location. It gets full all day sun and has been a solid grower.

Hey Matt! Good to see you posting on here again...

Matt, where you been man? Time for new garden update thread

Here's one I bought as D. heteromorpha. It survived, unscathed, last winter that roasted and finally killed my two D. onilahensis droopy leaf form that were planted in a similar location. It gets full all day sun and has been a solid grower.

That looks nice, and seems obviously hardier to cold. Perhaps I should have planted mine in blazing sun expsure but with more frost exposure. Someone tried to grow one of these in Gilroy, it got fried at 25F last Winter, but still survived. I am trying ro bring it back to health. Looks like I might succeed.

Thanks Joe.

Len, I've been around a little, just in lurk mode. I'll have to bust out the camera.

Axel, Mine definitely is in a hot spot. it get's direct sunlight all day as well as the radiant heat from the side of my house. I think it definitely can take some heat.

Darold, sign me up. I could use another

Len, I wrote your name on the pot, you will obtain it, (eventually!)

Dr. Pete Balansky has got the real deal.

Dr. Pete Balansky has got the real deal.

Pictures? Opinions? Pretty bald statement!

I'll check with Dr Balasky.

He has worked closely with Alfred in obtaining various seed...and is a source for Jeff Marcus for distribution

I do not know for sure if heteromorpha is amongst those...if so I may have it growing..or have killed it.

I still have a couple of wild collected Dypsis that remain unnamed.

The palm in question and in pictures posted here is growing quite well here in south Florida and has been seeding now for a couple of years, at least. Quite attractive.

Come on moose. You called it. Show it.