palm choices in UK?

[SouthSeaNate]

My Howea's are only around 3-4ft tall & were the result of splitting a potted specimen. They are planted in dense shade under my Washingtonia robusta & partly covered by a Fuschia bush. Ones I have tried even in partial sun have burnt to a crisp before, but under canopy they not only keep shaded they are also protected from radiational frost...  

Nate

[Bennz]

HI Nate,

I'm pleased to hear about UK people trialling bangalow palm, I personally think this is a species with good potential. Your -9C might be  a problem, but should be big enough by then that you'll be able to protect it if that temp ever happens again.

What is often not realised is just how cold parts of A. cunninghamianas range actually is. I have recently organised  seed for Alberto from an area where -5C happens every year, and -8C is not uncommon. Have thsoe seeds arrived yet Alberto??

Of more interest to UK people, there is a stand of banglow palm at the highest poinht of the Border Ranges National Park on the NSW/QLD border. This stand is at over 1100m elevation. Nearest town is Murwillumbah NSW. A little bit of rudimentary maths, for every 300m elevation increase, temp. drops on average 2C. IN dense rainfroest it can be as much as 3C, and occaisonally under 2C, especially in arid areas. So this 1100m+ site should have air temps nearly 8C lower than Murwillumbah, on average.

Here is the mean monthly air temps for Murwillumbah; (from http://www.weatherbase.com/weather....metric)

J 24

F 24

M 23

A 20

M 18

J 15

J 14

A 15

S 17

O 19

N 21

D 23

Subtracting 8C;...

J 16

F 16

M 15

A 12

M 10

J 7

J 6

A 7

S 9

O 11

N 13

D 15

While the actual figures are only theoretical, I can vouch for the fact that every time I go up there it is very much colder than the lowlands. This site is less than 30 minutes form my in-laws banana/beef farm, and when visiting it is nice for me to go up there and escape the heat. These palms look identical to the ones in Murwillumbah, which is very close by (but 1km closer to sea level!!). Although it snows at that altitude, the Park is a dense rainforest stand, and I doubt that actual frost ever occurs. It does demonstrate though that this palm has the genetic ability to grow in very cool areas.

[Nigel]

Benn that is very interesting, it suggests that we can grow this palm in dense evergreen woodland here.

I know somebody that already has some in these conditions in Cornwall and they seem to be thriving.

[Bennz]

The trouble with woodland settings is that these palms also need bright light, possibly the UK light levels might limit them away from full sun (I've never been to UK, but I have an uncle and two sisters UK residents who comment on the subdued light).

The other problem with woodland settings is that occaisonally trees drop on the palms. Here is bangalow damage in my garden from bad tree felling.

Ben in NZ

[SouthSeaNate]

(Bennz @ Feb. 19 2007,00:34)

QUOTE

I'm pleased to hear about UK people trialling bangalow palm, I personally think this is a species with good potential. Your -9C might be  a problem, but should be big enough by then that you'll be able to protect it if that temp ever happens again.

Ben,

-9C is the coldest it has EVER been here in Southsea & not even in my lifetime, I think that was recorded at the turn of the last century & possibly almost as low again in the very cold winter of 1962/1963, so hopefully it won't ever get that cold again!

Since l moved to my current house in 2001 I have been keeping records of temperatures with the following winter lows recorded:

2001/2002: -2.4C

2002/2003: -1.4C

2003/2004: -1.2C

2004/2005: -0.8C

2005/2006: -1.0C

2006/2007: +0.2C (so far anyway)

In the coldest winter weather daytime temperatures can be very cold though & sometimes can only reach a high of 4 or 5C. But in milder weather it can be as high as 14C. Luckily this winter has so far been very mild & I have only actually witnessed ground frost on a couple of occasions & had no snow.

I agree that Bangalows do actually like quite cool conditions & mine grow fine even in cooler weather, the only protection they ever receive is if temperatures below 0C are forecast, (which isn't very often here on the south coast), & I just throw some horticultural fleece over them.

I'm not saying they are a long term palm for milder areas of the UK & I don't really imagine mine growing to maturity, but fingers crossed! And if mother nature does throw some arctic weather my way at some point & they die, then at least I have had a few years enjoyment of growing these beautiful palms...  

Nate

[Nigel]

(Bennz @ Feb. 19 2007,03:26)

QUOTE

(I've never been to UK, but I have an uncle and two sisters UK residents who comment on the subdued light).

Yes indeed, we have many different shades of grey here.

[Neofolis]

We can't win, the clouds stop the temperatures falling too far, but they also reduce what little light there is.  Sounds ideal for Ceroxylons and other cloud forest species, but even surrounded by cloud (and canopy as younger palms), they probably still see considerably more light than we have here on a cloudy late December day.

[Alberto]

(Bennz @ Feb. 18 2007,19:34)

QUOTE

What is often not realised is just how cold parts of A. cunninghamianas range actually is. I have recently organised  seed for Alberto from an area where -5C happens every year, and -8C is not uncommon. Have those seeds arrived yet Alberto??

Hi Ben,

The seeds haven´t arrived yet. With the´´carnaval ´´ holyday here tomorrow,they probably will arrive the following days! I cannot wait to plant this seeds!!!

  Maybe I´ll have the first kings that will not be wiped out every X years on the tablelands.....

 Thanks, Ben!!!

[Steve in Brookings]

(Neofolis @ Feb. 15 2007,06:11)

QUOTE

Thanks Nigel.  I was working on the assumption that a minimum temperature was required to stimulate growth and the Southeast would see that temperature more often, but depending on how low that minimum temperature is, Cornwall has, by far, the longer growing season.

I would have to corroborate Corey's understanding of heat requirements.  What is important is not so much the average annual temperature, but the number of hours that the temperature stays above a threshold point for the subject plant.  That's the whole concept behind growing-degree days.  "Mild" climates often have fewer growing-degree days than climates with more seasonal variation, because all temperatures below 10C or 15C or whatever threshold temperature you're using for a given species are calculated as zero...and properly so (because there is zero growth at such temperatures).  Corn (maize) growing-degree days are a convenient criterion because they are published by most local weather stations.  I would guess that Cornwall has fewer CGDD than London, despite the frost protection advantage.  The trick, in such climates, is to find palms that have exceptionally low growth thresholds:  Rhopalostylis, Ceroxylon, Juania, etc.

[Nigel]

(Steve in Brookings @ Feb. 21 2007,16:29)

QUOTE

 What is important is not so much the average annual temperature, but the number of hours that the temperature stays above a threshold point for the subject plant.  That's the whole concept behind growing-degree days.  

Bit of a contradiction there Steve.

Tell me ....... what grows best,

A/ Temp going between 10C at night and 30C at day.

B/ Temp going between 15C at night and 25C by day.

I think you will find the answer is B/ not A/ despite the fact they both have same average.

Corey was thinking it was A/ because the daytime high is greater but that is incorrect.

[Nigel]

(Nigel @ Feb. 15 2007,05:33)

QUOTE

(Neofolis @ Feb. 15 2007,05:11)

QUOTE

On the Cornwall south coast, they seem to be able to get many species to survive, as they have a virtually frost free climate, but they have even less summer heat than the rest of Southern England, so it is still a very limiting climate.

Corey, that is a common misconception of `heat`.

Heat is not the daytime high but the daytime average.

Cornwall has one of the highest levels of `heat` in the country, because the night time temperatures stay much higher than inland. In summer the plants can grow in a temperature band much narrower than the southeast  but with similar average heat, the result is less stress and a much higher growth rate.

The main limiting factor in Cornwall is the wind, you can only grow stuff if you have a sheltered location because the wind will destroy everything.

Steve, New Zealand is a good example , queen palms grow in temperature averages very close to London.

London gets far more highs in summer yet queens dont grow there. In New Zealand they dont get the highs but the night times hold up whereas in London they fall too much.

If night time lows are falling below a certain threshold the palms growth is curtailed. A climate with a narrower temperature band but same average temp will ALWAYS produce more growth , and that is why Cornwall has such an excellent climate compared to much of the UK.

[Nigel]

Weather station ST. MAWGAN is at about 50.43°N 5.00°W. Height about 119m / 390 feet above sea level.

24-hr Average Temperature

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year

°C  6.3  5.5  7.2  8.5  11.2  13.8  16.3  16.1  14.3  11.8  8.8  7.5  10.7 Source: ST. MAWGAN data derived from GHCN 1. 117 months between 1981 and 1990

Weather station STANSTED AIRPORT is at about 51.88°N 0.20°E. Height about 106m / 347 feet above sea level.

24-hr Average Temperature

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year

°C  3.7  3.3  5.9  7.8  11.2  14.1  16.9  16.7  14.1  11.0  6.6  5.0  9.8

Source: STANSTED AIRPORT data derived from GHCN 1. 117 months between 1981 and 1990

Comparison of St Mawgan Cornwall with Stansted in the south east.

St Mawgans climate is a much narrower temperature band because it is tempered by the sea, yet the averages are very similar. Never in a million years does Stansted get more growing days.

[Bennz]

(Nigel @ Feb. 21 2007,17:21)

QUOTE

Tell me ....... what grows best,

A/ Temp going between 10C at night and 30C at day.

B/ Temp going between 15C at night and 25C by day.

I think you will find the answer is B/ not A/ despite the fact they both have same average.

New Zealand is a good example , queen palms grow in temperature averages very close to London.

London gets far more highs in summer yet queens dont grow there. In New Zealand they dont get the highs but the night times hold up whereas in London they fall too much.

Nigel,

this is a very interesting post,  and something i want to know more about.

mean min. jan to dec for Palmerston North NZ (with mature fruiting Queens) 12 12 11 9 6 4 3 5 6 8 10 11

London 1 1 2 3 6 10 11 11 8 6 3 2

PN has couple degrees advantage

mean monthly max jan to dec PN 21 22 20 18 15 12 11 13 15 16 18 20

London 6 7 9 12 16 18 21 21 18 14 10 7

a significant winter difference, same summer.

PN has 2C warmer mean annual temp. (and  I may add it is a dreary cold hole, btw).

I don't know that the night temps are more significant than the daytime  GDD measurements.

Comparing notes with guys growing bananas in northern California, they just seem to get more growth than me in summer. Interestingly the comparative temps are almost identical to your A/B posts above, my summer being the B and theirs the A. I think with bananas at least,the GDD system appears more important.

The other possibility is that mean min/max is not telling enough of the story, your  B comparison might have 22 hours above 20C, and the A might have onlt 6, or whatever. Too many variables!!!!

[Nigel]

Benn , there is cooler places in NZ where queens will grow.

My comparison was a coastal mild climate vs an inland climate.

Steve and Corey are saying that the inland climate will have more heat days but thats completely wrong. Only during the high point of summer is that true in the UK.

The sea will keep night time temps up, but temper daytimes, whereas an inland climate will see temps go higher by day but cool faster at night.

Therefore when the average is the same the coastal climate MUST have significantly higher night time lows, and therefore the lows will go below the minimum far less often, and the growing season is greatly extended.

Londons climate is ok for queens for maybe 3 months only ,in Cornwall they can survive because they grow far longer a season.

The point I tried to make to Corey ( and now Steve ) is that it is not how high during the day that counts but how low at night.

Night time temps are everything for palms.

In two climates with an average temp the same, the climate without extremes will always be the one that produces best growth.

[Nigel]

(Steve in Brookings @ Feb. 21 2007,16:29)

QUOTE

 "Mild" climates often have fewer growing-degree days than climates with more seasonal variation, because all temperatures below 10C or 15C or whatever threshold temperature you're using for a given species are calculated as zero...and properly so (because there is zero growth at such temperatures).  Corn (maize) growing-degree days are a convenient criterion because they are published by most local weather stations.  I would guess that Cornwall has fewer CGDD than London, despite the frost protection advantage.  The trick, in such climates, is to find palms that have exceptionally low growth thresholds:  Rhopalostylis, Ceroxylon, Juania, etc.

To prove the point I took Steves low point of 10C and painstakingly went through weather data for Newquay on the coast in Cornwall, and Stansted north of London in the south east. I took number of days minimum DOES NOT FALL TO 10C.

Month   NEWQUAY STANSTED

JAN             0                 0

FEB              0                 0

MAR             2                2

APRIL          0                0

MAY             10              0

JUNE            28             16

JULY            31              24

AUGUST      31               27

SEPT           30               29

OCT            25               16

NOV            7                  2

DEC            6                  3

Cornwall has 170 days and Stansted 119 days.

More significantly cornwall has 145 CONSECUTIVE DAYS FROM JUNE 3RD TO OCTOBER 5TH, the longest spell at Stansted was just 18 days. And this was our hottest ever year.

[AJQ]

All good stuff here Nige, any chance of a link to a site so I could do the calculations for Sunny Bangor?

I know there is a weather station at the marina but it is nigh on impossible to get access to it.

Regards Andy.

[Roaringwater]

This is a very interesting discussion, and one that has prompted me to make my first post on this forum.

My feeling is that both Nigel and Steve are correct, it all depends on which plants you are talking about.  Having grown exotic plants both in London (relatively high summer maximums, relatively large diurnal range), and my present location in SW Ireland (relatively low summer maximums, narrow diurnal range, relatively warm nights year-round), it is a question of vital interest for me.  In my experience, North American desert plants such as Yuccas, Opuntias etc did grow better in London, which usually has many weeks every summer when daytime highs exceed 25c.  On the other hand, most southern hemisphere plants, and those from higher altitudes at lower latitudes, grow better here.  Indeed, there is a vast range of plants I grow here that would never survive a London winter.  In general, I would agree with Nigel that nighttime lows are more important than daytime highs for plant growth.  The exceptions are probably mostly plants from northern hemisphere regions with a wide diurnal temperature range.

[Nigel]

Andy, I used www.weatheronline.co.uk , Roaringwater, thinking about it, Brahea is a palm that seems to grow better with a temperature fluctuation and cool nights, but it still needs to be above 10C I think.

My point right from the start of this thread was that the conception that the south and south east east has more heat or gdd,s (in terms of growing plants)  than Cornwall, is incorrect.

[PalmGuyWC]

Here are my very unscientific observations of temps., climate and palms.  I would have to agree with Nigel that "NIGHT TIME TEMPS. MEAN EVERYTHING."  I have found that when night time temps. fall below 50F (10C) virtually all growth ceases on the palms that I can grow. California has many micro climates, and the San Francisco Bay area in particular.

The big difference between N. and S. Calif. is that the minimum night temps. in S. Calif. are about 10F (5C) higher year round and this makes all the difference in what we can grow. Most times in the warmer months, our day temps. will be the same or close. In my hot/cold inland valley, I am further limited by winter lows where I can expect frost sometime during the winter.   Further, in the Bay Area there are huge extreams in summer daytime temps. On a typical June day, San Francisco may be shrouded in a cool fog and the temp. is only around 55 F (13 C) while in Walnut Creek, only about 30 miles away it can be 105F (41 C). This makes a huge difference in the kinds of palms I can grow and those that can be grown on the bay side of the Oakland hills.  There is another huge leap between N. and S. Calif.  Many of the tropicals can be grown in S. Calif as they are rarely visited by freezes, the same can be said for San Francisco if they are cool loving tropicals from altitude or high latitudes. (Syagrus are popping up all over San Francisco, but they are very slow growing over there). Some do better than others, as even a small land mass like San Francisco with its many hills and proximity to the ocean and the bay has it's micro climates.

One of the best gages of climate is to see what grows in a particular area. I can grow heat loving, but cold hardy palms, such as Braheas, Sabals, Rhapis, Rhapidophyllum, Serenoa, etc., while these palms would just languish in San Francisco.  On the other hand, San Francisco (and Oakland) has an ideal climate for Rhopalostylis, Howeas, Ceroxylons, Parajubaeas, and other cool loving plants.

In gaging a climate, I always look for complimentry plants that grow in an area, such as exotic philodendrens, tree ferns, fucias, etc.  In the Bay Area you can drive through 3 climate zones in 5 minutes.  It gets confussing, but interesting.

To summerise:  Things grow on the Bay Side year round with their higher night time temps., but cooler daytime temps., while on my side of the hills, I get a huge spurt of growth in the warmer months, but virtually nothing in the cooler months.

Until this winter we have had 8 mild winters in Calif. and we have many new palm growers entering the picture during this period....and I see them pushing the limits of what will grow where. I guess, like me, we all have to learn the hard way, and this winter was a good test. That goes for S. Cal. growers too. My fried Bismarkia is coming out soon...just to cold to grow it here. I'm sorry for my disorganized thoughts, but it is early here.

Dick

[Bilbo]

Corey,

Maybe I have got my wires crossed and if Im wrong I apologise but if that Phil guy was one of those who attempted (and failed) to set up a palm society in the South West some time ago then I stick by what I said.

No IPS member knows him and thats a fact.

If he were a newbie I would not have said as I did.

Regardez

Juan

[Bilbo]

Hey Roaringwater!

I know where you live as it is one of my favourite places.

I often stayed at Baltimore House Hotel (is it still there?)and fished with Teddy Browne - a great character including wrecking and reefs off the Fastnet.

Its a truly lovely area and is indeed mild but it would be perfect but for summer sun.

Regardez

Juan

[Bennz]

( @ --)

QUOTE

Benn , there is cooler places in NZ where queens will grow.

My comparison was a coastal mild climate vs an inland climate.

Steve and Corey are saying that the inland climate will have more heat days but thats completely wrong. Only during the high point of summer is that true in the UK.

The sea will keep night time temps up, but temper daytimes, whereas an inland climate will see temps go higher by day but cool faster at night.

Therefore when the average is the same the coastal climate MUST have significantly higher night time lows, and therefore the lows will go below the minimum far less often, and the growing season is greatly extended.

Londons climate is ok for queens for maybe 3 months only ,in Cornwall they can survive because they grow far longer a season.

The point I tried to make to Corey ( and now Steve ) is that it is not how high during the day that counts but how low at night.

Night time temps are everything for palms.

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Nigel,

My Palmerston North example was based on the fact that it is the coldest place I know of with fruiting queens, suggesting they are properly established.

I have been playing around with this ideas, and keep on coming back to a more GDD-based answer. Some examples;

If we take 10C as a signivicant night time minimum point at which growth basically stops for many species regardless of daytime heat, then when we compare to various locations around the world we should get more or less consitent results for that species.

Looking at Australia, the range of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is basically subtropical to lat. 36S. Nowra is towards the southern end of the range, it has 4 months of year with maen min temps below 10C. At the other end of the scale in NSW, Byron Bay has no months below 10C mean min. Both towns have bangalow palms, but Byron Bay also has fruiting coconuts, I've never noticed any of them in Nowra. If the base 10C is right, we would expect no real growth in Nowra over the winter. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this very much.

A better example is Urbenville NSW. This is a subtropical town about 150kms from Brisbane. But it is far enough inland to be quite cold at night. Here are the mean monthly minimum figures jan to dec; (from http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tab...cw_057021.shtml which is Urbenville state forest, where the palms are).

14.8   14.9   13.6   10.5    5.9    3.8    2.6    3.0    5.8    8.9   12.1   13.5

So, 6 months below 10C. Coldest months properly into the UK range.

Monthly mean maximums;

25.5   24.3   22.9   20.9   17.3   15.0   14.1   15.8   19.2   22.1   25.2   26.0

As I have family there, I can vouch for the fact that the Queen palms at least continue to grow all year around. It just seems that the cold nights are not stopping the growth from the daytime warmth.

Different species, different cliamtes, different results.

[Neofolis]

Part of the problem with comparison is that many of the places with lower night time temperatures are either too cold at night during winter for palms to survive or so cold that they cause set backs to summer growth.  It would be interesting to compare in inland, high elevation equatorial climate that has low night time temperatures with reasonable daytime heat all year.

Obviously this would be irrelevant to the Cornwall/London comparison, but it may give a fuller understanding of growth requirements.

[Nigel]

You cant hold the 10C limit for every palm, for example compared to a queen an Archontophoenix will grow at lower temps but will be killed first in frost.

Its horses for courses, I can only speak for the range of cold hardy palms growing here in the UK.

It will be interesting to see if queens will grow in Cornwall, early signs are encouraging.

Ben , some time ago we had this discussion on UK oasis, temps from an area of new zealand, maybe whakatane were quoted, and the summer in London was much hotter by daytime.

Each palm will have its minimum low where it stops growing and will need x number of days above this figure to become viable , no palm will be the same.

[Kelern]

Bennz,

Palms won't stop to grow under 10° min, they just slow down. Here in Brittany, palms  don't grow much in spring, they really speed up in high summer, I'm sure it's, partly, because nights temperatures are warmer and they keep growing fast very late in autumn because of warm nightime due to the warm sea even with cool days. My palms were still growing last november!

When I lived in Paris, I was amazed to see that the Koelreuteria paniculata growing in central city were flowering a full month earlier than the ones outside the city. Day temperatures are the same for both places, I would say slightly cooler in Paris due to pollution screen, but nightime is much warmer inner city.

[Bilbo]

Corey if you thought I was rude I apologies  but I looked up that little group some time ago.

Not one member was known in the palm world, I dont think any have posted here and none are members of the IPS.

I would have thought it would have been more sensible for them to join the EPS which has bags of experienced guys including Nursery Owners, Nigel our Butia specialist andguys in Commercial Palm seed sales and many others quite a few of whom are IPS members as well.

What I really like about the IPS is the vast woldwide experience that is accumulated here and I very much like meeting the guys every now and then.

They are a very friendly who know how to have fun and I dont know if you can make Costa Rica but if not two years on the Bi will be Teneriffe which is on our doorstep.

Even I can be friendly unless there is a full moon.

Regardez

Juan

[Roaringwater]

Bilbo, I think this region has a lot of potential for cool-growing palms.  I have  Rhopalostylis "Oceana" and Juania growing well, and have planted out a couple of Lepidorrhachis seedlings.  Two Archontophoenix cunninghamiana have just spent their first winter in the ground, and I will be trying Howea, Hedyscepe and various Ceroxylons in due course.  What I lack here is a tree canopy, but I'm working on it!

Bennz, I had good germination of the LHI Banyans, looking forward to planting them out when they are bigger.

[Bennz]

HI Roaringwater, nice to know who you are. These names get a little confusing...

Good to hear the banyans coming away well. They should be good for you. Here is R. cheesemanii with Howea, when your place looks like this in a few years/decades it will make people think again about what can be grown in Ireland. Sounds like we are focusing on essentially the same species.

[Neofolis]

I have been amazed how mild the Irish winters have been since I've been monitoring the weather more closely for the past couple of years.  Even last winter, which was the worst for some time in the UK and Europe seemed extremely mild for the most part in Ireland.

[Alberto]

cannot delete this

[Kris]

[Jamil Habib]

On 2/14/2007 at 3:20 PM, Bilbo said:

Benn, I tried a Silver Queen but it was a rather weedy specimen and failed.

Not being a quitter I got a big un and had to plant it quick in September as I was due at the DR Bi in October.

It cost £400.00 and I paid the 2  guys £20.00 each.

I didnt do deep earth anchor guying as I would do normally for clients as there was no time for having the cables measured and tensioner checked etc (apologies for scaper speak).

So I put 3 paving slabs over the rootball area to help hold it down.

 

Anyone the big un is 18`+ and mature but I go more by trunk dia than height.

My pal Pete on a visit couldnt see it at first until I told him to look up!

 

The Queen laughed its way thro our winter and is looking real good.

We shall see how it does this year because knowing its responsiveness I am thinking of a dose of one of my "specials" which is NPK and micro`s but the N is real high ie. it would fry a young palm!

Regardez

Juan

Hi Juan,

Hope you are well. How's your Queen holding up? I have two 15 foot specimens that are ready for their first winter in the UK. Do you have any advice on protection?

Best wishes

Jim