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sabal yapa


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Mauritiformis is supposed to have a more slender trunk as well, and from what I've heard, retain it's leaf bases longer and they continue to be green? Although, there is a large palm labeled "Yapa" at the SD Botanical Gardens in Encinitas which, if I remember correctly, has green boots still all the way up? Leaf structure looks way different.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/298832/#b

post-7959-0-51610100-1382369975_thumb.jp

After I saw this specimen I just had to go out and get one. What a quest that was...

Edited by Sabal Steve
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Guys, according to Dr. Larry Noblick, yapa leaflets end in no more than two segments together--Mauritiiformis has leaflet segments in four. I have no idea whether the color to the underside of the leaf is a valid identification method. Yapa in itself is a difficult palm to characterize; there are different forms here and there--to make matters harder, mauritiiformis has the widest distribution of any Sabal--that must mean there is variation among different populations. Yapa is reputed to be much more hardy to cold than mauritiiformis is...

Yes, this is what I was trying to describe. Especially the first part regarding the segments.

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

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sorry that my phone keep uploading me sideways... the yapa but has maybe grown 50 percent since I got it from a liner. The mauritiformis has probably tripled in size. Same watering, but the yapa has a cactus/palm soil mixture. I may have added a little.sand. The maurit has whatever is used at jungle music.

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OK, I just can't stand it anymore. Yapa Dapa Doo.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Maybe this will be helpful - Principes. 35(4). 1991, page 224 has Hermilo J. Quero's Key to the Sabal Species from the Yucatan Penninsula (part of his article describing Sabal gretheriae).

This is what it says about the two species in question:

2. Leaves with a small costa. and short nalman

the segments thus droopingl segments soft

and silvery beneath; inflorescence with 4

orders of branching - S. mauritiiformis

2. Leaves with a large costa, strongly curved

with long palman; segments hard and green

beneath; inflorescence with 3 orders of

branching - S. yapa

I kept a printout of the entire paper when traveling through Yucatan.

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Maybe this will be helpful - Principes. 35(4). 1991, page 224 has Hermilo J. Quero's Key to the Sabal Species from the Yucatan Penninsula (part of his article describing Sabal gretheriae). This is what it says about the two species in question: 2. Leaves with a small costa. and short nalmanthe segments thus droopingl segments softand silvery beneath; inflorescence with 4orders of branching - S. mauritiiformis2. Leaves with a large costa, strongly curvedwith long palman; segments hard and greenbeneath; inflorescence with 3 orders ofbranching - S. yapa I kept a printout of the entire paper when traveling through Yucatan.

I officially nominate alex as palmtalks resident sabal expert!

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Maybe this will be helpful - Principes. 35(4). 1991, page 224 has Hermilo J. Quero's Key to the Sabal Species from the Yucatan Penninsula (part of his article describing Sabal gretheriae). This is what it says about the two species in question: 2. Leaves with a small costa. and short nalmanthe segments thus droopingl segments softand silvery beneath; inflorescence with 4orders of branching - S. mauritiiformis2. Leaves with a large costa, strongly curvedwith long palman; segments hard and greenbeneath; inflorescence with 3 orders ofbranching - S. yapa I kept a printout of the entire paper when traveling through Yucatan.

I officially nominate alex as palmtalks resident sabal expert!

Not even close. I just talk a lot.

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Maybe this will be helpful - Principes. 35(4). 1991, page 224 has Hermilo J. Quero's Key to the Sabal Species from the Yucatan Penninsula (part of his article describing Sabal gretheriae).

This is what it says about the two species in question:

2. Leaves with a small costa. and short nalman

the segments thus droopingl segments soft

and silvery beneath; inflorescence with 4

orders of branching - S. mauritiiformis

2. Leaves with a large costa, strongly curved

with long palman; segments hard and green

beneath; inflorescence with 3 orders of

branching - S. yapa

I kept a printout of the entire paper when traveling through Yucatan.

Interesting, its as I thought before all the confusion was dumped on this thread. Mine is mauritiiformis as Ken Johnson said, Im not surprised. Small costa, drooping segments with silver underneath, check. When it flowers I'll be looking for the 4 orders of branching... thanks alex!

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

What do you think about the palm labeled as S. yapa at Selby gardens by the pond where the Roystonea are? I saw it and it looked like mauritiiformis to me

  • Upvote 1

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Palmetto.gif

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

What do you think about the palm labeled as S. yapa at Selby gardens by the pond where the Roystonea are? I saw it and it looked like mauritiiformis to me

I haven't visited Selby since my trip to Yucatan in August. It would be interesting to check it out now that I've seen them in the wild.

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

What do you think about the palm labeled as S. yapa at Selby gardens by the pond where the Roystonea are? I saw it and it looked like mauritiiformis to me

I have not seen it alex. I should make a trip down there when I get back to florida.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

What do you think about the palm labeled as S. yapa at Selby gardens by the pond where the Roystonea are? I saw it and it looked like mauritiiformis to me

I haven't visited Selby since my trip to Yucatan in August. It would be interesting to check it out now that I've seen them in the wild.

something wrong I posted that comment.... yet it looks like alex did...????

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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So is what Andrew said correct? "yapa leaflets end in no more than two segments together--Mauritiiformis has leaflet segments in four."

My palm labeled "yapa" has segments of four, bluish top, whitish undersides, looks less spokeswheel-eske.

My palm labeled "mauritiformis" has segments of two, iighter green with whitish undersides.

If what Andrew says is correct, even Ken's palm is not mauritiformis.

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So is what Andrew said correct? "yapa leaflets end in no more than two segments together--Mauritiiformis has leaflet segments in four."

My palm labeled "yapa" has segments of four, bluish top, whitish undersides, looks less spokeswheel-eske.

My palm labeled "mauritiformis" has segments of two, iighter green with whitish undersides.

If what Andrew says is correct, even Ken's palm is not mauritiformis.

I have one of kens mauritiiformis, it ends in up to 4 leaflets per segment but they are often fused. I think you cannot tell that from the pic as the leaflet tips get tattered in the wind and dry out as well. I also am not sure that is an identifying trait as it isn't mentioned in the reference alex gives. Sounds to me like the inflorescence is more the determining trait.

"Leaves with a small costa. and short nalman

the segments thus droopingl segments soft

and silvery beneath; inflorescence with 4

orders of branching - S. mauritiiformis" the inflorescence has 4 orders of branching.

Edited by sonoranfans

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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hello.

good info in this topic!

i bought two yapas from diferent buyers years ago as seedlings...

this one can be, may be too young to a correct ID..., my winter with some frost dont like it

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but this one i don´t have idea..., i remember comments about two different forms of yapa, no damage in winter.

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post-1753-0-58857600-1382510090_thumb.jp

post-1753-0-05349600-1382510111_thumb.jp

any thoughts??

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

Alex, I distinctly remember the speech on Sabal that Dr. Larry Noblick gave for the SFPS(I even recorded it). Sorry, but I am gonna go with him until I hear different...

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Hello Sergi,

I bet my money for your first Sabal on mauritiformis and for your second on uresana!

hello Kostantinos!

...many thanks for your reply.

my uresanas seedlings from seeds also have leave segments deeply divided, but the leaves are not totally green.

post-1753-0-01134600-1382595567_thumb.jp

sorry for the offtopic

regards

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Hello Sergi,

in a pic true color is very difficult to be shown, especially in an open location on a sunny day. If your second Sabal is not really silver and based on the abundance of filaments, I change my bet on Sabal rosei! Surely it does not look to me as yapa and against to common belief there is always also among Sabal spss growing closely a hybridization possibility :winkie:

Edited by Phoenikakias
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Thank you Konstantinos.

My sabal rosei seedling grows slowly, I don't know why..., is too young to compare with this one...

I will post some mauritiformis seedling pics to know if it Is the true one, or it is a yapa...

Regards.

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Thank you Konstantinos.

My sabal rosei seedling grows slowly, I don't know why..., is too young to compare with this one...

I will post some mauritiformis seedling pics to know if it Is the true one, or it is a yapa...

Regards.

Yes, Sabal rosei grows initially very slowly. It adores surface compost in our soils.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I had both Sabal yapa and mauritiiformis in my last yard... 2007 freeze hit them both hard, and lost a yapa .. no other Sabals even remotely affected. S yapa is a wimp. First two shots are of the mauritiiformis... rest of the yapas

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post-426-0-90920300-1384681146_thumb.jpg

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Here is the large form of Sabal yapa. This one is in my neighborhood.

This looks markedly different from every S. mauritiiformis that I've seen. As juveniles they're pretty similar though, so I assume they diverge at some point?

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Palmetto.gif

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I had both Sabal yapa and mauritiiformis in my last yard... 2007 freeze hit them both hard, and lost a yapa .. no other Sabals even remotely affected. S yapa is a wimp. First two shots are of the mauritiiformis... rest of the yapas

Geoff, I am pretty sure you have your Sabals mixed up--the bottom left picture is clearly a mauritiiformis.

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Ken's palm is a S. mauritiiformis.

Over the last couple of years I have observed and photographed a population of Sabal mauritiiformis in Belize and multiple populations of Sabal yapa in the Mexican states of Yucatan and Quintana Roo. I will pull my files together and post them in the near future.

What do you think about the palm labeled as S. yapa at Selby gardens by the pond where the Roystonea are? I saw it and it looked like mauritiiformis to me

I took the kids to the new kids area at Selby yesterday. Did not get much time to explore the garden. Haven't been there by myself in over a year, and kids need attention. I couldn't get close to the one by the lake, since by the time we walked over there, they already started wedding activities (we overstayed the 5PM closing time). From the distance it did look like a S. yapa.

On the other hand there is a large but juvenile Sabal labeled S. yapa growing along the trail that goes along the Bay and connects the northern and the southern parts of the garden. And that palm in my opinion is definitely not a S. yapa. It looks more like S. causiarum.

Some other quick off-topic observations - Colpothinax is gone, Pritchardia maideniana (labeled as P. affinis) is almost dead, Satakentia is looking better than ever!

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WEll, they were grown from seed of S yapas from Florida (pretty sure my friend would not mix up his Sabals)... so unless there is a mix in there, those are yapas. Certainly not mauritiiformis as there was no mauritiiformis within miles of these parent palms.

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S. yapa burned every year for me when I got down in the high 20's F. Every year it would come back rapidly so I was OK with it, until last year, she bit the bullet from a bunch of mid twenties. My smaller S. mauritiiformis faired much better.

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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S. yapa burned every year for me when I got down in the high 20's F. Every year it would come back rapidly so I was OK with it, until last year, she bit the bullet from a bunch of mid twenties. My smaller S. mauritiiformis faired much better.

Given all the confusion as to the labels, which one did you have labeled as yapa? The one with two leaflets segments?

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I had both Sabal yapa and mauritiiformis in my last yard... 2007 freeze hit them both hard, and lost a yapa .. no other Sabals even remotely affected. S yapa is a wimp. First two shots are of the mauritiiformis... rest of the yapas

Geoff, were these pics taken after the 27 degree low? How low do you think they(mauritiiformis) can go in your climate?

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I believe Sabals in Geoff's post are properly identified. The first two are S. mauritiiformis, and the rest are S. yapa.

Alex, that's consistent with how mine are labeled. But it's not consistent with "Guide to Cultivated Palms of the World" so I am still inclined to go with Andrew's assesment that the two are rather widely mixed up. This is rather frustrating, as I would love to know which of the two types I have is hardier.

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I believe Sabals in Geoff's post are properly identified. The first two are S. mauritiiformis, and the rest are S. yapa.

Alex, that's consistent with how mine are labeled. But it's not consistent with "Guide to Cultivated Palms of the World" so I am still inclined to go with Andrew's assesment that the two are rather widely mixed up. This is rather frustrating, as I would love to know which of the two types I have is hardier.

What does the "Guide to Cultivated Palms of the World" that makes you feel that way?

Geoff's labeling is consistent with what I've seen in habitat. It's also consistent with Zona, Henderson and Quero.

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I believe Sabals in Geoff's post are properly identified. The first two are S. mauritiiformis, and the rest are S. yapa.

Alex, that's consistent with how mine are labeled. But it's not consistent with "Guide to Cultivated Palms of the World" so I am still inclined to go with Andrew's assesment that the two are rather widely mixed up. This is rather frustrating, as I would love to know which of the two types I have is hardier.

What does the "Guide to Cultivated Palms of the World" that makes you feel that way?

Geoff's labeling is consistent with what I've seen in habitat. It's also consistent with Zona, Henderson and Quero.

I disagree, but I am ok disagreeing and also ok if I am wrong--in the end, all we are doing is supporting our opinions. Without DNA, an adult plant, or a taxonomy degree, it's like this-- :rolleyes: But I am fascinated by these two palms--just saw them at fairchild, last weekend. In summation, Yapa seems to have different forms and mauritiiformis seems to be more uniform and slightly larger than the smaller form of yapa--yapa is a darker green too, from what I saw...

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These palms are photographed a year or so ago, 5 years after the 'killer freeze' we got... I had a Sabal mauritiiformis in between these two yapas but it was smaller and the freeze killed it outright. Both these yapas were defoliated down to the spike, but recovered. They now live under a canopy created by Phoenix and Araucaria bidwillii, which were small back then.. so probably will be fine from now on (only I no longer own this yard... sigh).

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  • 4 months later...

Scott Zona, in his monograph, states the following characteristics regarding connate leaf-segments that could possibly be used as pretty reliable identifiers between these two species based on foliar characteristics alone. Obviously green vs. glaucous is not a reliable key unless you have a glaucous individual (which would indicate that you would have a mauritiiformis as opposed to the supposedly always-green yapa):

S. yapa: leaves evenly green…segments 90-115 per leaf, connate in groups of 2 (rarely 3) for ca. 50% of their length, the groups connate for only ca. 15% of their length…

S. mauritiiformis: leaves evenly green or strongly glaucous…segments 90-120 per
leaf, connate in groups of 2-3 for nearly their entire length (rarely solitary), the groups connate for only ca. 30% of their length…

Also, if you can get your hands on an inflorescence, S. yapa has three orders of branching, and S. mauritiiformis has the very unusual characteristic of four orders of branching. That would of course be a very good indicator.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 293 ft | z10a | avg Jan 42/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899)

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