Pinnate x Palmate Question

[greekpalm]

Might be a stupid question but, i've never seen a hybrid between a pinnate and a palmate palm ?

no one ever tried?

well probably thats not possible because i've never seen one..

If its not possible, does anyone has a scientif answer for it ? ("they are genetically to diverse" is a to vague answer)

[Fallacia]

If i can understand you tell us to cross a cycas with a phoenix?

[greekpalm]

no a cross between a palmate palm (for example washingtonia) with a pinate one (for example phoenix)

[Phoenikakias]

Manos, you are speaking of the legendary chimera of the palm world! So real as the unicorn... or not? Since long ago rumor has it about a possible crossing between Chamaerops and CIDP, and indeed there are some Chamaerops specimens, which look like they have not yet decided to go palmate or pinnate! Is it a case of boron deficiency or an invitation to all ... cryptozoologists?

[greekpalm]

Do not forget that chimera was based from another myth of the hittites ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Museum_of_Anatolian_Civilizations080.jpg ) where it had a human, lion and snake head.
So who knows

(no but seriously, i've never heard anybody talk about it, thats why i got curious)

[Phoenikakias]

The truth is out there

[sarasota alex]

Manolis, I am afraid the answer is just what you didn't want to hear - "they are genetically to diverse"

However if there was ever a chance of creating such a hybrid, the closest related pinnate/palmate palm combination is Raphia and the group of Mauritia, Mauritiella and Lepidocaryum. So I would start there.

Just in case anyone has success with it, let me be the first one to coin the name - Mauraphia

[stygiana]

The only Pinnate palms which have a closer genetic / botanical relationship to palmate palms are Phœnix.

Phœnix is indeed the only pinnate palm genus belonging to the Coryphoideæ sub-family.

However, I doubt it might be enough to create home-made hybrids...

[sarasota alex]

Sebastian, that's not entirely accurate. Phoenix does belong to the Coryphoideae subfamily, but is not the only palmate palm in that subfamily. Arenga, Wallichia and Caryota (bi-pinnate) are also placed there.

Also not all palmate palms belong to Coryphoideae. Palms in the subtribe Mauritiinae, that I mentioned in my previous post here, are all palmate, but they represent a separate evolutionary branch and belong to the subfamily Calamoideae. Within Calamoideae these palms have a much closer relationship to their pinnate cousins (Raphia) then the pinnate palms of Coryphoideae.

[greekpalm]

the phoenix thing is a very nice observation !

[stygiana]

  On 8/22/2013 at 5:02 PM, sarasota alex said:

Sebastian, that's not entirely accurate. Phoenix does belong to the Coryphoideae subfamily, but is not the only palmate palm in that subfamily. Arenga, Wallichia and Caryota (bi-pinnate) are also placed there.

Also not all palmate palms belong to Coryphoideae. Palms in the subtribe Mauritiinae, that I mentioned in my previous post here, are all palmate, but they represent a separate evolutionary branch and belong to the subfamily Calamoideae. Within Calamoideae these palms have a much closer relationship to their pinnate cousins (Raphia) then the pinnate palms of Coryphoideae.

Thanks Alex for this important point. I seems that I missed your post (n°7) on Raphia and Mauritia. It's a shame...

I didn't know that Mauritia, Mauritiella and Lepidocaryum belonged to the Calamoideæ sub-family.

Good one, I'll remember that.

Could one say that Mauritia has actually the appearance of what a pinnate x palmate palm hybrid could look like?

In any case, it's a very unusual looking palm, one of my favourite.

Considering Arenga, Caryota and Wallichia, I was surprised, at first, when you said that they belong to the Coryphoideæ. I was sure that their tribe (the Caryoteæ) belonged to the Arecoideæ...

That's at least what all my books and reference web-sites said. And then, after your message, I decided to make a deeper search, and I found that:

http://www.amjbot.org/content/88/6/1103/F2.large.jpg

Although traditionally included within the Arecoideæ, Arenga, Caryota and Wallichia seem to be, indeed, more closely related to Coryphoideæ!!!

Good job Alex!

[greekpalm]

very interesting posts !!

[Stevetoad]

ive crossed a bizzy with a c.macrocarpa. its now mature and seeding. but i refuse to post a photo of it or show it to anyone and if you try to sneak a peek my unicorn bigfoot hybrid (unifoot) will attack you.

[sarasota alex]

Thanks Sebastian!

Yes in the first edition of Genera Palmarum they were placed in the Arecoideae based on the similarities in the inflorescence anatomy of Caryoteae and Iriarteeae. In 2006 however this molecular study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8339.2006.00521.x/abstract showed that they actually belong within Coryphoideae. Another major change with that study was the new placement of Chamaedoreeae within Arecoideae with Chamaedorea, Hyophorbe, Gaussia, Synechanthus and Wendlandiella. It was formerly Hyophorbeae within Ceroxyloideae. That is the classification that also was used in the second edition of Genera Palmarum.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have some phoenix unicornus for sale on special this week for only $50/5g. They were flown in special from Pandora just last week. They glow at night and fold up upon touching them.

They are super hardy but you will need to supplement with unobtainium to get them to grow here.

[stygiana]

  On 8/22/2013 at 7:08 PM, Stevetoad said:

ive crossed a bizzy with a c.macrocarpa. its now mature and seeding. but i refuse to post a photo of it or show it to anyone and if you try to sneak a peek my unicorn bigfoot hybrid (unifoot) will attack you.

Steve, I understand now why you were the only one who did not to praise the palm gods, as one can see on this photo from Tassie Troy thread about Matty B's garden...