Madagascar’s Palms Near Extinction

[JakeK]

Seems there are still plenty of people with the mindset of saving trophy species rather than habitats. Depressing.

In the animal world there has been great success with focusing on a single apex predator within an ecosystem to save the entire ecosystem, plant life included. It's the halo effect. With just plant life, I think the conversation on conservation has to be different. This is an example where collecting and distributing as many seeds as possible is the only hope for many of these palms. Maybe later in the future, the forest could return and because measures were taken now to preserve the last viable seeds, offspring from the last wild populations could be used to repopulate the area. The prettiest palm in the world will never be able to garner as much public support in both awareness and dollars for protection as say the Bengal tiger or the African elephant. They'll just be slashed and burned like the rest of the forest to make way for another crop.

[JakeK]

i am perplexed by the amount of science bashing these days.

I am perplexed by the amount of non-science done in the name of science these days. I have a PhD in Physics, I'm entitled to be critical of my own creed.

I see this a lot with several conservation organizations I am involved with. Ultimately, if one party's offer or PoV is more lucrative than another even though it is not the right choice based on science or flat out wrong, that party always wins. Big money always wins.

[sonoranfans]

I'm not sure that business is the problem with the ridiculous rules that prevail on seed collecting, sale, shipping, or rare species ownership or propagation. Of course, protecting the remaining plants is highly desirable. But the rules are made by non-scientist politicians wanting headlines or bureaucrats with a narrow or incorrect understanding of the problem - the effect of seed collecting on the remaining plants of a rare species. And have any such rules ever been unmade or rolled back in any way? Regulations are as eternal as death and taxes.

I have heard of some concessions being made in my state where a business is licensed to sell plants of rare species with dire warnings to the buyer not to propagate the plant. Perhaps the authorities trust the business not to raid the wild plants populations for seeds, but to use domestic sources. Otherwise, the owner of a rare plant is assumed to have obtained plant or seed from the wild population unless they can prove otherwise, even if those populations are remote, nearly inaccessible, or at unknown locations.

I agree with earlier suggestions that seed collection should be done by the authorities for distribution to the public, no reason for any restrictions except possibly on quantity. Most plants are factories for production of their own propagative material, and produce it way in access of demand from the small number of individuals or businesses that would have an interest in them.

It's scientists turned bureaucrats and politicians enlisting science to do their deed.

Yup I agree, and even NSF and NIH, two of the biggest government funding organizations are composed of bureaucrats and politicians. When controlling healthcare costs become an important issue and suddenly "researchers" are saying women don't need breast exams till after 50, you know the fix is in. The credibility of science is pretty low with the American public. And we don't have to even question the corruptibility of business, that has been well known for decades, anything for the dollar. the unfortunate change has been the corruption of government funded science, it was far less of an issue in the past. But this is what politicians messing with science gets you, corruption.

[Dypsisdean]

Most people just want to be spoon fed a bottom line in one simple sentence. Very few take the time to check who funded a study, and what ties they have. And even fewer have the wherewithal, or will take the time to look at the data and form their own opinion.

[Cedric]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

[bgl]

Cedric,

The two main objectives of the IPS: education and scientific research. Conservation, as we all know by now, can be defined in various ways, not all of which we necessarily agree with. Other than supporting conservation in a general way, I don't see the IPS formulating its own policy. And seed distribution by the IPS ("The Seed Bank") was terminated a good 20 years ago. Not going to happen again.

Bo-Göran

[mike in kurtistown]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

I agree that conservation of rare species outside of the natural habitat, with the possible exception of species that have attained wide commercial popularity, is unable to be maintained for any length of time that would be significant in the evolutionary time scale. Protection efforts are barely funded in third-world countries and are not entirely effective even in our own country. Segregating species or trimming inflorescences can work for years or decades in gardens like Jeff's or will be in mine when I start getting inflorescences, but others will not care as much and still others might actually be interested in hybridization. Distribution of rare plant seeds can help the first group do their job, but know your sources!

Growing rare species has another benefit - one of education. It is one thing to see the name of a rare species on a list, red or any other color, but another thing entirely to point to a plant and tell your friends that that is so-and-so, rare and endangered in its natural environment. Personal experience can help, albeit in a small way, to build a constituency to support funding for conservation efforts.

[Dr. George]

Most people just want to be spoon fed a bottom line in one simple sentence. Very few take the time to check who funded a study, and what ties they have. And even fewer have the wherewithal, or will take the time to look at the data and form their own opinion.

Spot on here too.

What happened to the use of critical thinking to evaluate information?

What is the source of the information being disseminated?

Respected peer reviewed journal, newsletter/media article, website, blog, articulated opinion, spam e-mail that flunks the snoops test?

If a scientific study:

What is the hypothesis being tested (if any)?

Does the study design adequately test the hypothesis?

What is the data that was collected?

Does the data support the conclusions?

Granted, the more answers we get from science the more questions we find, and much of what has been considered legitimate scientific fact has been modified or even cast aside as more is learned, but that is part of learning and growing. We need to be able to differentiate solid scientific investigation and discovery from charlatans who would cloak themselves in pseudoscience to advance personal agendas, the hype that accompanies fundraising, or even the shackles of our own preconceived ideas of what we want to hear. In my opinion we are only as gullible as we allow ourselves to be, only limited in our understanding by the boxes we define for ourselves, and commonly fail to understand that the most valuable commodity that we have is our integrity.

gmp

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Most people just want to be spoon fed a bottom line in one simple sentence. Very few take the time to check who funded a study, and what ties they have. And even fewer have the wherewithal, or will take the time to look at the data and form their own opinion.

Spot on here too.

What happened to the use of critical thinking to evaluate information?

What is the source of the information being disseminated?

Respected peer reviewed journal, newsletter/media article, website, blog, articulated opinion, spam e-mail that flunks the snoops test?

If a scientific study:

What is the hypothesis being tested (if any)?

Does the study design adequately test the hypothesis?

What is the data that was collected?

Does the data support the conclusions?

Granted, the more answers we get from science the more questions we find, and much of what has been considered legitimate scientific fact has been modified or even cast aside as more is learned, but that is part of learning and growing. We need to be able to differentiate solid scientific investigation and discovery from charlatans who would cloak themselves in pseudoscience to advance personal agendas, the hype that accompanies fundraising, or even the shackles of our own preconceived ideas of what we want to hear. In my opinion we are only as gullible as we allow ourselves to be, only limited in our understanding by the boxes we define for ourselves, and commonly fail to understand that the most valuable commodity that we have is our integrity.

gmp

Well said!

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

[sarasota alex]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

Unfortunately Cedric I couldn't disagree with you more.

I have visited many public arboretums and botanical gardens and in quite a few met with people running the place and most of the time it's the same bureaucrats that are in charge. Your concern with private gardens owners are valid, but are ten times more valid when it comes to publicly run places. People change jobs a lot more often then they abandon their private gardens. Most owners fight for every palm they have, they try to accomodate unique conditions, whereas most gardens just apply "you win some, you lose some" strategy.

There is a devoted enthusiast or a few behind every great public garden and what makes those gardens successful is that they run the place as if it was their own. Leu Gardens is a great example of that with Eric running things. Unfortunately most public gardens don't have a person like that and there - no one cares.

Gizella Kopsick Arboretum is what it is because there is a CFPACS member working for St. Petersburg City Beautiful Commission. What would happened if he gets another job? That would be the end of the Arboretum as we know it. They already having a hard time keeping up with vandalism.

What Jeff is doing may not be sustainable forever, but I cannot imaging any public garden in the US doing it at all, other than Montgomery.

9 out of 10 public gardens around the world that I've seen had at least one mislabeled palm, that I could recognize with my naked eye. 1 out of 4 or 5 had a double-digit percentage of palms mislabeled.

And even if they cared for their palms, how would that help? Once again you have Montgomery and Fairchild and some others that participate in the seed exchange programs but most public gardens just let the seeds drop and rot, or sprout and be treated like weeds. I have been to gardens that police the grounds for "seed collectors" yet don't pick up any themselves. There is a Saribus jeanneneyi that's been fruiting in a Botanical Garden greenhouse in France since 2011. Did that help that species any? No. Have we seen any seeds? No. I bet that if there was a fruiting S. jeanneneyi at the Floribunda, that palm would be guaranteed not to go extinct.

I was once in a US botanical garden with a great palm collection, while palms were being pruned. The trimming crew was basically giving most palms a "hurricane" cut. I was surprised to see that and went into the office to ask why botanists would allow their collection to be treated that way. I got the following answer: "This is the first time we got funding to trim the tall palms in 2 years. We don't have a choice. We have to make the most of it. If they see that we barely cut anything we may not get funds to do this again." And that is the reality.

Another story. A Howea forsteriana is a rare palm here in Sarasota. We can only grow it in deep shade. There are 5 trunking Howeas that I know of in our County. One of them somehow wound up growing in the shade of a courtyard of a county-owned building. Had about 4' of trunk. That building was scheduled to be demolished so I went to our local botanical garden (also luckily ran by great people) to see if they could take it. They already had 2 trunking H. forsteriana and limited space, so they had to decline. So after exhausting all options I went to the County and asked if I could come root-prune it and take it. Make a long story short I finally got a phone call from a person high up in the County. After hearing the party line and not buying it, I finally had that person level with me. Basically the hint I got was - "If it turns out that the County paid for that palm a long time ago with public funds and someone finds out and then find out that I let it be taken to a private garden, that may not be good for my career. So I'd rather let the palm die."

Then there is a question of interest. I see Tahina spectabilis in private collection a lot more often than in public gardens.

Basically, Cedric, if most public gardens were like MBC and had a person like Larry Noblick in charge, then I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. But unfortunately most of the time that's just not the case.

So I'm going to end this post with a photo to illustrate just how reliable palm conservation could be in public gardens.

[Dypsisdean]

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

Test your scientific knowledge - 13 very fast questions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/science-knowledge/

[Hammer]

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

Test your scientific knowledge - 13 very fast questions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/science-knowledge/

I passed! I must be a scientist.

[LJG]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

Unfortunately Cedric I couldn't disagree with you more.

I have visited many public arboretums and botanical gardens and in quite a few met with people running the place and most of the time it's the same bureaucrats that are in charge. Your concern with private gardens owners are valid, but are ten times more valid when it comes to publicly run places. People change jobs a lot more often then they abandon their private gardens. Most owners fight for every palm they have, they try to accomodate unique conditions, whereas most gardens just apply "you win some, you lose some" strategy.

There is a devoted enthusiast or a few behind every great public garden and what makes those gardens successful is that they run the place as if it was their own. Leu Gardens is a great example of that with Eric running things. Unfortunately most public gardens don't have a person like that and there - no one cares.

Gizella Kopsick Arboretum is what it is because there is a CFPACS member working for St. Petersburg City Beautiful Commission. What would happened if he gets another job? That would be the end of the Arboretum as we know it. They already having a hard time keeping up with vandalism.

What Jeff is doing may not be sustainable forever, but I cannot imaging any public garden in the US doing it at all, other than Montgomery.

9 out of 10 public gardens around the world that I've seen had at least one mislabeled palm, that I could recognize with my naked eye. 1 out of 4 or 5 had a double-digit percentage of palms mislabeled.

And even if they cared for their palms, how would that help? Once again you have Montgomery and Fairchild and some others that participate in the seed exchange programs but most public gardens just let the seeds drop and rot, or sprout and be treated like weeds. I have been to gardens that police the grounds for "seed collectors" yet don't pick up any themselves. There is a Saribus jeanneneyi that's been fruiting in a Botanical Garden greenhouse in France since 2011. Did that help that species any? No. Have we seen any seeds? No. I bet that if there was a fruiting S. jeanneneyi at the Floribunda, that palm would be guaranteed not to go extinct.

I was once in a US botanical garden with a great palm collection, while palms were being pruned. The trimming crew was basically giving most palms a "hurricane" cut. I was surprised to see that and went into the office to ask why botanists would allow their collection to be treated that way. I got the following answer: "This is the first time we got funding to trim the tall palms in 2 years. We don't have a choice. We have to make the most of it. If they see that we barely cut anything we may not get funds to do this again." And that is the reality.

Another story. A Howea forsteriana is a rare palm here in Sarasota. We can only grow it in deep shade. There are 5 trunking Howeas that I know of in our County. One of them somehow wound up growing in the shade of a courtyard of a county-owned building. Had about 4' of trunk. That building was scheduled to be demolished so I went to our local botanical garden (also luckily ran by great people) to see if they could take it. They already had 2 trunking H. forsteriana and limited space, so they had to decline. So after exhausting all options I went to the County and asked if I could come root-prune it and take it. Make a long story short I finally got a phone call from a person high up in the County. After hearing the party line and not buying it, I finally had that person level with me. Basically the hint I got was - "If it turns out that the County paid for that palm a long time ago with public funds and someone finds out and then find out that I let it be taken to a private garden, that may not be good for my career. So I'd rather let the palm die."

Then there is a question of interest. I see Tahina spectabilis in private collection a lot more often than in public gardens.

Basically, Cedric, if most public gardens were like MBC and had a person like Larry Noblick in charge, then I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. But unfortunately most of the time that's just not the case.

So I'm going to end this post with a photo to illustrate just how reliable palm conservation could be in public gardens.

IMG_4106_mod.JPG

IMG_4107_mod.JPG

Nice work Alex. Couldn't agree more.

[sarasota alex]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

Unfortunately Cedric I couldn't disagree with you more.

I have visited many public arboretums and botanical gardens and in quite a few met with people running the place and most of the time it's the same bureaucrats that are in charge. Your concern with private gardens owners are valid, but are ten times more valid when it comes to publicly run places. People change jobs a lot more often then they abandon their private gardens. Most owners fight for every palm they have, they try to accomodate unique conditions, whereas most gardens just apply "you win some, you lose some" strategy.

There is a devoted enthusiast or a few behind every great public garden and what makes those gardens successful is that they run the place as if it was their own. Leu Gardens is a great example of that with Eric running things. Unfortunately most public gardens don't have a person like that and there - no one cares.

Gizella Kopsick Arboretum is what it is because there is a CFPACS member working for St. Petersburg City Beautiful Commission. What would happened if he gets another job? That would be the end of the Arboretum as we know it. They already having a hard time keeping up with vandalism.

What Jeff is doing may not be sustainable forever, but I cannot imaging any public garden in the US doing it at all, other than Montgomery.

9 out of 10 public gardens around the world that I've seen had at least one mislabeled palm, that I could recognize with my naked eye. 1 out of 4 or 5 had a double-digit percentage of palms mislabeled.

And even if they cared for their palms, how would that help? Once again you have Montgomery and Fairchild and some others that participate in the seed exchange programs but most public gardens just let the seeds drop and rot, or sprout and be treated like weeds. I have been to gardens that police the grounds for "seed collectors" yet don't pick up any themselves. There is a Saribus jeanneneyi that's been fruiting in a Botanical Garden greenhouse in France since 2011. Did that help that species any? No. Have we seen any seeds? No. I bet that if there was a fruiting S. jeanneneyi at the Floribunda, that palm would be guaranteed not to go extinct.

I was once in a US botanical garden with a great palm collection, while palms were being pruned. The trimming crew was basically giving most palms a "hurricane" cut. I was surprised to see that and went into the office to ask why botanists would allow their collection to be treated that way. I got the following answer: "This is the first time we got funding to trim the tall palms in 2 years. We don't have a choice. We have to make the most of it. If they see that we barely cut anything we may not get funds to do this again." And that is the reality.

Another story. A Howea forsteriana is a rare palm here in Sarasota. We can only grow it in deep shade. There are 5 trunking Howeas that I know of in our County. One of them somehow wound up growing in the shade of a courtyard of a county-owned building. Had about 4' of trunk. That building was scheduled to be demolished so I went to our local botanical garden (also luckily ran by great people) to see if they could take it. They already had 2 trunking H. forsteriana and limited space, so they had to decline. So after exhausting all options I went to the County and asked if I could come root-prune it and take it. Make a long story short I finally got a phone call from a person high up in the County. After hearing the party line and not buying it, I finally had that person level with me. Basically the hint I got was - "If it turns out that the County paid for that palm a long time ago with public funds and someone finds out and then find out that I let it be taken to a private garden, that may not be good for my career. So I'd rather let the palm die."

Then there is a question of interest. I see Tahina spectabilis in private collection a lot more often than in public gardens.

Basically, Cedric, if most public gardens were like MBC and had a person like Larry Noblick in charge, then I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. But unfortunately most of the time that's just not the case.

So I'm going to end this post with a photo to illustrate just how reliable palm conservation could be in public gardens.

IMG_4106_mod.JPG

IMG_4107_mod.JPG

Nice work Alex. Couldn't agree more.

Thanks Len!

[sonoranfans]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

Unfortunately Cedric I couldn't disagree with you more.

I have visited many public arboretums and botanical gardens and in quite a few met with people running the place and most of the time it's the same bureaucrats that are in charge. Your concern with private gardens owners are valid, but are ten times more valid when it comes to publicly run places. People change jobs a lot more often then they abandon their private gardens. Most owners fight for every palm they have, they try to accomodate unique conditions, whereas most gardens just apply "you win some, you lose some" strategy.

There is a devoted enthusiast or a few behind every great public garden and what makes those gardens successful is that they run the place as if it was their own. Leu Gardens is a great example of that with Eric running things. Unfortunately most public gardens don't have a person like that and there - no one cares.

Gizella Kopsick Arboretum is what it is because there is a CFPACS member working for St. Petersburg City Beautiful Commission. What would happened if he gets another job? That would be the end of the Arboretum as we know it. They already having a hard time keeping up with vandalism.

What Jeff is doing may not be sustainable forever, but I cannot imaging any public garden in the US doing it at all, other than Montgomery.

9 out of 10 public gardens around the world that I've seen had at least one mislabeled palm, that I could recognize with my naked eye. 1 out of 4 or 5 had a double-digit percentage of palms mislabeled.

And even if they cared for their palms, how would that help? Once again you have Montgomery and Fairchild and some others that participate in the seed exchange programs but most public gardens just let the seeds drop and rot, or sprout and be treated like weeds. I have been to gardens that police the grounds for "seed collectors" yet don't pick up any themselves. There is a Saribus jeanneneyi that's been fruiting in a Botanical Garden greenhouse in France since 2011. Did that help that species any? No. Have we seen any seeds? No. I bet that if there was a fruiting S. jeanneneyi at the Floribunda, that palm would be guaranteed not to go extinct.

I was once in a US botanical garden with a great palm collection, while palms were being pruned. The trimming crew was basically giving most palms a "hurricane" cut. I was surprised to see that and went into the office to ask why botanists would allow their collection to be treated that way. I got the following answer: "This is the first time we got funding to trim the tall palms in 2 years. We don't have a choice. We have to make the most of it. If they see that we barely cut anything we may not get funds to do this again." And that is the reality.

Another story. A Howea forsteriana is a rare palm here in Sarasota. We can only grow it in deep shade. There are 5 trunking Howeas that I know of in our County. One of them somehow wound up growing in the shade of a courtyard of a county-owned building. Had about 4' of trunk. That building was scheduled to be demolished so I went to our local botanical garden (also luckily ran by great people) to see if they could take it. They already had 2 trunking H. forsteriana and limited space, so they had to decline. So after exhausting all options I went to the County and asked if I could come root-prune it and take it. Make a long story short I finally got a phone call from a person high up in the County. After hearing the party line and not buying it, I finally had that person level with me. Basically the hint I got was - "If it turns out that the County paid for that palm a long time ago with public funds and someone finds out and then find out that I let it be taken to a private garden, that may not be good for my career. So I'd rather let the palm die."

Then there is a question of interest. I see Tahina spectabilis in private collection a lot more often than in public gardens.

Basically, Cedric, if most public gardens were like MBC and had a person like Larry Noblick in charge, then I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. But unfortunately most of the time that's just not the case.

So I'm going to end this post with a photo to illustrate just how reliable palm conservation could be in public gardens.

IMG_4106_mod.JPG

IMG_4107_mod.JPG

Very well said Alex!

[sarasota alex]

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

While perhaps making sense commercially for a few seasons of valuable commercial seed crop this is never going to work long term for the survival of a species. What happens when old Jef pops his cork (not that he is old or in any imminent danger of death)just hypothetically speaking, a change of management for example, financial problems etc. The best laid plans have a habit of reverting to complete anarchy unless owned by the people collectively as in Botanical gardens and even these are not 100% foolproof.

Growing as many species of Dypsis from a wide as possible naturally occurring area together in any one place might be seen as the worst kind of conservation but its unfortunately one many palm collectors as opposed to gardeners and botanical gardens seem to prefer. These palms grown from original seed collected in situ, notably in Botanical gardens can be used safely in target seed production where necessary. These can represent in worst case scenario the only living populations of a species.

Seed grown by and distributed to private collections big or small might not be as secure as botanical gardens but it still represents although somewhat more unstable nonetheless good insurance policy or buffer zone should other measures have failed for any reason.

I thought that the IPS key focus was conservation and that distribution of seed amongst it's members was one of these activities?

Personally I think trying to establish a healthy populations of a species in Madagascar itself along habitat protection lines must get precedence but the rest must be seen as a very important insurance policy surely?

Unfortunately Cedric I couldn't disagree with you more.

I have visited many public arboretums and botanical gardens and in quite a few met with people running the place and most of the time it's the same bureaucrats that are in charge. Your concern with private gardens owners are valid, but are ten times more valid when it comes to publicly run places. People change jobs a lot more often then they abandon their private gardens. Most owners fight for every palm they have, they try to accomodate unique conditions, whereas most gardens just apply "you win some, you lose some" strategy.

There is a devoted enthusiast or a few behind every great public garden and what makes those gardens successful is that they run the place as if it was their own. Leu Gardens is a great example of that with Eric running things. Unfortunately most public gardens don't have a person like that and there - no one cares.

Gizella Kopsick Arboretum is what it is because there is a CFPACS member working for St. Petersburg City Beautiful Commission. What would happened if he gets another job? That would be the end of the Arboretum as we know it. They already having a hard time keeping up with vandalism.

What Jeff is doing may not be sustainable forever, but I cannot imaging any public garden in the US doing it at all, other than Montgomery.

9 out of 10 public gardens around the world that I've seen had at least one mislabeled palm, that I could recognize with my naked eye. 1 out of 4 or 5 had a double-digit percentage of palms mislabeled.

And even if they cared for their palms, how would that help? Once again you have Montgomery and Fairchild and some others that participate in the seed exchange programs but most public gardens just let the seeds drop and rot, or sprout and be treated like weeds. I have been to gardens that police the grounds for "seed collectors" yet don't pick up any themselves. There is a Saribus jeanneneyi that's been fruiting in a Botanical Garden greenhouse in France since 2011. Did that help that species any? No. Have we seen any seeds? No. I bet that if there was a fruiting S. jeanneneyi at the Floribunda, that palm would be guaranteed not to go extinct.

I was once in a US botanical garden with a great palm collection, while palms were being pruned. The trimming crew was basically giving most palms a "hurricane" cut. I was surprised to see that and went into the office to ask why botanists would allow their collection to be treated that way. I got the following answer: "This is the first time we got funding to trim the tall palms in 2 years. We don't have a choice. We have to make the most of it. If they see that we barely cut anything we may not get funds to do this again." And that is the reality.

Another story. A Howea forsteriana is a rare palm here in Sarasota. We can only grow it in deep shade. There are 5 trunking Howeas that I know of in our County. One of them somehow wound up growing in the shade of a courtyard of a county-owned building. Had about 4' of trunk. That building was scheduled to be demolished so I went to our local botanical garden (also luckily ran by great people) to see if they could take it. They already had 2 trunking H. forsteriana and limited space, so they had to decline. So after exhausting all options I went to the County and asked if I could come root-prune it and take it. Make a long story short I finally got a phone call from a person high up in the County. After hearing the party line and not buying it, I finally had that person level with me. Basically the hint I got was - "If it turns out that the County paid for that palm a long time ago with public funds and someone finds out and then find out that I let it be taken to a private garden, that may not be good for my career. So I'd rather let the palm die."

Then there is a question of interest. I see Tahina spectabilis in private collection a lot more often than in public gardens.

Basically, Cedric, if most public gardens were like MBC and had a person like Larry Noblick in charge, then I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. But unfortunately most of the time that's just not the case.

So I'm going to end this post with a photo to illustrate just how reliable palm conservation could be in public gardens.

IMG_4106_mod.JPG

IMG_4107_mod.JPG

Very well said Alex!

Thanks Tom!

[BS Man about Palms]

Yep.. I agree with Alex. The public gardens get the funding and favoritism, yet lack the enthusiasm where the plant meets the soil..

[BeaumontTropics]

Yep.. I agree with Alex. The public gardens get the funding and favoritism, yet lack the enthusiasm where the plant meets the soil..

yeah, except they do grow excellent dypsis decipiens, lol

[Jeff Searle]

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

Test your scientific knowledge - 13 very fast questions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/science-knowledge/

Hmmm, I passed with an 11 out of 13 score. I do admit, I made a guess on a couple I had no idea on. Maybe I should quit my low paying job and become a ?

[Stevetoad]

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

Test your scientific knowledge - 13 very fast questions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/science-knowledge/

BOOM! i hit 100%!!! please call me Dr.Toad now...

[Zeeth]

They don't teach you critical thinking in school, it doesn't make for good consumers. People might just start reading labels. And they certainly don't want to train people to question their govt or what corporations do. Better keep the populace sedated in consumerism and in front of the TV.

The word "Science" just gets thrown around with a few "statistics" et voila, people just gobble it up hook line and sinker.

Test your scientific knowledge - 13 very fast questions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/science-knowledge/

13/13 woo

[KennyRE317]

12/13 here .... 31 M high school

Edited July 13, 2013 by KennyRE317

[KennyRE317]

I think it just means I watch too much discovery and natgeo tv