Sabal causiarum speed of growth?

[sonoranfans]

Thank you very much Basilios for participating in this thread and helping with more photos and background info! Your palms are great looking! Is your biggest Sabal 1,20m tall with or without its pot?

I also think its a little difficult for RPS to have made a mixup but in any case,it wouldnt be intentional. A mixup of S. causiarum with S. domingensis wouldnt be too unlikely,especially if what Axel mentions in an earlier post of his is true. Maybe these 2 species where sold interchangeable in past due to mistake in reading the species description or due to a seed collector's error or mislabeling. These species share part of their distribution range and thus you can see how a mixup can happen.

Do you maybe have a photo of their seeds? These species can supposedly be differentiated from their fruits and seeds.

I dont mind if they turn out to be S. domingensis or if they truly are S. causiarum. I like the leaf conformation and speed of S. domingensis very much but i also love the bluer color of S. causiarum. So its a win-win situation for me,i just would like to know for sure what they are so that i can plan their planting according to their relative speed of growth.

I look forward to visiting you again and chatting palms! Maybe even plant a few more in the ground if you like!

Thank you very much for your reply and help Tom!

My plants were indeed bluer when i got them from Basilios and probably the heavy rains and hail we had washed the wax off some. However,it was only a thin bluish sheen/tint and not a flashy waxy coating that stands out. The bluish tint on them was a very lovely shade of green/blue and in my photos is visible on some of the leafs and leaf parts but the base green color i think has gotten lighter on the palms,maybe due to getting more sun at my place than they were used to.

I dont know how reliable color is on telling them apart since so many of the blue species come in green versions too,thus i would say wax thickness may vary,even greatly. What may be more reliable is leaf shape on the various growth stages of the palm,assuming growing conditions are relatively similar. I dont know exactly the conditions my Sabal were grown under and how much sun they were getting but at least the bigger one in the black pot must have been getting a good deal of sun and wind exposure and shouldnt be too dissimilar to a palm of its size grown with good sun exposure. My other may have been more shade grown. I think the shallowly divided leafs look much more like S. domingensis overall,as does the fact that its the outer leaflets that start dividing deeply first and not the central ones like seen on your S. causiarum.

What do you think?

Thank you very much in advance!

Kostas I do think it is possible there was a mixup with RPS, it has happened before and as you say these two species come from the same area of the carribean and are difficult to differentiate. My domingensis came from texas and were had notably more blue as received. Blue color or wax in palms as we have discussed before can be a response to environment to prevent leaflet dessication. I think there is no danger of that in florida, and certainly not in my care in florida. My causiarum lost some its wax in winter, coming out more green, then getting more blue in the hot dry season, Wax might crack a bit and come off in the cold, especially with frost as was the case with mine. Your growing conditions are different obviously, and growing a palm in a pot for 7 years is something that I don't do. If your palms is a domingensis, no worry as it is a beautiful palm that holds more fronds than causiarum. Also, I think it will have no problem with your climate once established as most reports in florida say adults are undamaged at ~22F. I think the ligules or absence of them will be the only reliable differentiator, and that will take at least 4-5 years after they go in the ground. Best of luck with your palm. As far as planting, once thing you can do is delay planting of the one you want to be underneath, this is what I have done. Allow the taller one to establish roots for 2 years, then plant the second one. This will be more reliable than trying to understand growth rates in your climate. Still, I would keep the palm trunks of bizzie and these huge sabals at least 12-15'(4-5M) from each other as this should prevent fronds from getting beat up against a trunk.

[Alicehunter2000]

Interesting read, now its got me wondering what was transplanted to my yard. It has got a bluish sheen to it and also papery ligules. I was just about to post it over in my thread.

[sonoranfans]

Interesting read, now its got me wondering what was transplanted to my yard. It has got a bluish sheen to it and also papery ligules. I was just about to post it over in my thread.

yours is causiarum with those ligules, and the really fat trunks... great specimens!

Edited June 30, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Phoenikakias]

I think Tom is right, the Sabal of Kostas resemble more domingensis. The sick (or rather suffering from nutritional deficiency) Sabal of mine had been also bought as causiarum from the same source and resenbles more also domingensis, so a mix up in the identity is very probable. On the contrary I grow a genuine causiarum (seed collected in Florida) that is distinguished by the papery ligules, the gradually developing intense gray-blue color and the huge for its age petioles and leaf blades indicating that in maturity it will be a huge palm. Pics have been taken early this morning, so with poor light and unfortunately colors are not the best.

To the right of causiarum you can see a S rosei of same age, so you may figure out the difference in final size? In the rabbit cage to the left of causiarum grows a small S uresana. All stones and concrete and the rabbit cage as well are used for protection of palms from the ravages that may be caused by my dogs. Yes, I pefer to keep in cage palms rather than my dogs, which are considered as part of the family (after all we do not use to keep any other family part in cage!)

[Phoenikakias]

Hi guys. Since I'm the one who provided Kostas with the palms in question, I should add some info on their origin.

- The seeds were bought as sabal causiarum from rarepalmseeds.com, back in 2006. This means that the palms are 7 years old. But those specific seedlings that I gave to Kostas were the smallest ones, since they spent much time in small pots. I have a couple of others that are about 1 m. (3 ft.) tall by now.

- Here's a photo of some of them when they were 16 months old, posted by me on davesgarden gallery. Pay attention to the leaves' shape, but not to the color, since what you see in the picture is the temporary result of too much water, a lot of shade and really bad soil. Eventually, some of the seedlings (but not all) did start to display a bluish color, and still do.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/171528/

- They have never shown any sign of cold tenderness. Back in 2008, which was the last year my area saw a really freezing weather, my sabal seedlings were no more than 8 months old and came through low temperatures at around -3C (26.5F), and a whole day below freezing, without a scratch.

Tomorrow I'll post a couple of pics of the palms as they are now, and we'll probably reach a conclusion on their ID.

What?! Have I read 'to much water'? Shame on you Basilios , you ought not use such improper phrases, your Sabal seedlings clearly suffer from underwatering. You should have placed pots on a saucer filled with water during winter.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[Kostas]

Since a growing season has passed from the last time I posted photos of my Sabal's in question and they seem to have settled nicely in the ground,I though I would post some photos I have of them from November:

Bigger one in shade

Smaller one getting noon full sun

In my eyes,if the Sabals in this thread are indeed correctly name,mine are definitely looking like S. dominguensis as the S. causiasum of their size in the picture,are already much divided and with erect,flat leafs,while my Sabal's have wide,curvy strap leafs mostly. My bigger one gets significant shade,my smaller one get noon sun.

What do you think of their ID? Both are from the same seed batch,so whatever they are,they both are the same.

Thank you very much in advance!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Since a growing season has passed from the last time I posted photos of my Sabal's in question and they seem to have settled nicely in the ground,I though I would post some photos I have of them from November:

Bigger one in shade

Smaller one getting noon full sun

In my eyes,if the Sabals in this thread are indeed correctly name,mine are definitely looking like S. dominguensis as the S. causiasum of their size in the picture,are already much divided and with erect,flat leafs,while my Sabal's have wide,curvy strap leafs mostly. My bigger one gets significant shade,my smaller one get noon sun.

What do you think of their ID? Both are from the same seed batch,so whatever they are,they both are the same.

Thank you very much in advance!

Those are dominguensis, that's what mine look like. Causiarum and bermudana have much flatter leaves as juveniles.

[Dave-Vero]

Leaf color (amount of wax; a technical term is "glaucous" for waxy blue leaves) usually doesn't mean much. Serenoa repens (saw palmetto), a Florida palm, has blue and green populations. The blue ones are mostly near beaches, where there's lots of salt spray.

Sabal causiarum will tolerate some prolonged cold in Florida. One of the more famous ones in the state is next to the McCarty building on the University of Florida campus in Gainesville, which can get well below freezing for many hours. The city does have the typical Florida pattern of short, severe cold spells but few long periods of cold, and most of the cold weather is dry.

[Kostas]

Great to hear that mine do are S. domingensis,I always liked this species better for the fuller crown and more lush,tropical appearance! Cold shouldn't be a problem in Pyrgos,it should breeze through any winter there...And of course,so far no damage from December's frost that damaged banana leafs...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Great to hear that mine do are S. domingensis,I always liked this species better for the fuller crown and more lush,tropical appearance! Cold shouldn't be a problem in Pyrgos,it should breeze through any winter there...And of course,so far no damage from December's frost that damaged banana leafs...

Be careful, rumors are dominguensis doesn't gain full cold tolerance until a little larger. I've heard of smaller specimens getting leaf damage in the low 20's. Causiarum is hardier and much faster in my experience.

[Kostas]

Thanks Axel! Pyrgos record minimum is just -3,6C at the coldest of the night,doubt it would do anything bad to this species. Plus,annual lows are 30F to 29F at the coldest part of the night,before sun rises and warms everything up above 10C quickly,nothing for even a tender Sabal!

I thought S. dominguensis is said to be the faster of the two? Not much idea but probably climate dependent. Pyrgos is a lowland area and generally has good heat coupled with shallow underground water table,hopefully unlocking its potential for faster growth.

Overall, I like its lax look and full crown,as seen in photos of adults of this species, better

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

And a shot of another of my sabals causiarum (or "causiarum") from 2010, at 4 years old. The color is even more bluish on this one.

Looks like dominguensis to me.

Ok, here are a couple of shots I just took....This is the largest of my causiarums, 7 years old from seed, about 1.20m. tall. I believe it to be an average grower, not fast, but not very slow either. Of course if it had been put in the ground a few years ago, by now it would have been much larger, probably double this size.

Again, more dominguensis.

This is another one of my causiarums. Not a great shot, but you can still appreciate its size and growth rate, since it appears side by side with an archonto cunninghamiana of the exact same age (7 years old), which by now displays about a foot of trunk. Actually both species come from seeds that were part of my very first order from rarepalmseeds in 2006.

In any case, Kostas' sabals come from the same bag of seeds and I must say that I don't believe rarepalmseeds actually mislabelled them.

And yet another dominguensis.

Now the IDs above are my opinion, I am with Tom on the rigidity, flatness of the leaves identifying causiarum and the bulging, inflated leaf look to identify dominguensis. The two species did get interchanged at one point in time, so it's not unusual to have the two species interchanged quite frequently. RPS is not immune to this confusion since they also get some seeds from domestic sources.

[Sabal Steve]

Axel,Can you please post some pics of the differences between young causiarum and dominguensis? How did you hear about them being "switched"? Last I read, which was a PSSC Journal by Don Hodel the S. causiarum could be distinguished by the "large papery liguels on the leaf bases". Is this the correct way to tell? An old time palm grower I know always calls them the opposite of what I know them as, meaning that he calls the one with papery liguels S. dominguensis. Anyway, the adults are confusing, but the seedlings are really confusing to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Funny - an old time palm grower told me the same thing... That the creation of a new species was done for more of an ego boost than anything in the name of science. So I've heard...

[JLeVert]

My large (15') Sabal causiarum just went through some severe cold at the beginning of January here in Augusta, GA. The temp fell to somewhere between 13F and 15F with a 30mph wind. It is too soon to tell how much damage was done, but right now there is severe wind/freeze burn on most of the leaves of four S. causiarum. They have never had damage before, even in the low 20's and upper teens, but this was the worst winter we've had in 20 or 30 years. Hopefully the damage was not to the bud. The day before the freeze was 60F and then we were below freezing for 36 hours. Very unusual.

Sabal pumos, maritima and domingensis were severely damaged, but they were young plants. S. rosei, uresana, palmetto, etonia, minor, 'Riverside' and palmetto had no damage to speak of.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel,Can you please post some pics of the differences between young causiarum and dominguensis? How did you hear about them being "switched"? Last I read, which was a PSSC Journal by Don Hodel the S. causiarum could be distinguished by the "large papery liguels on the leaf bases". Is this the correct way to tell? An old time palm grower I know always calls them the opposite of what I know them as, meaning that he calls the one with papery liguels S. dominguensis. Anyway, the adults are confusing, but the seedlings are really confusing to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Funny - an old time palm grower told me the same thing... That the creation of a new species was done for more of an ego boost than anything in the name of science. So I've heard...

I owe some pictures. When the torrential downpour stops, I will go out there and have a couple of pics to compare the juvenile forms.

[Phoenikakias]

Just a test of your theory and of my comprehension ability, Axel... Those two pics are from two different Sabal specimens. Supposed that they refer to a S domingensis and a S causiarum respectively which is which based on the costa and the folding of lamina?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Just a test of your theory and of my comprehension ability, Axel... Those two pics are from two different Sabal specimens. Supposed that they refer to a S domingensis and a S causiarum respectively which is which based on the costa and the folding of lamina?

DSC02107.JPG

DSC02106.JPG

It's hard to tell from the photos since they don't show the entire palm. But, my guess is the first one looks like causiarum and the second one looks like blackburniana, perhaps dominguensis.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here's my sabal causiarum, it's the most beautiful sabal I have:

And here is one of my dominguensis, still rather young, you can still see the bulge in the leaves.

[Alicehunter2000]

My large (15') Sabal causiarum just went through some severe cold at the beginning of January here in Augusta, GA. The temp fell to somewhere between 13F and 15F with a 30mph wind. It is too soon to tell how much damage was done, but right now there is severe wind/freeze burn on most of the leaves of four S. causiarum. They have never had damage before, even in the low 20's and upper teens, but this was the worst winter we've had in 20 or 30 years. Hopefully the damage was not to the bud. The day before the freeze was 60F and then we were below freezing for 36 hours. Very unusual.

Sabal pumos, maritima and domingensis were severely damaged, but they were young plants. S. rosei, uresana, palmetto, etonia, minor, 'Riverside' and palmetto had no damage to speak of.

I am very interested in your damage assessments concerning these species...please keep us informed on how things turned out. I didn't get quite as cold + or - 20 degrees, but I have damage to the leaves of my large 15 ft. oa causiarum. Really hoping both of our palms are ok. We both need to catelog our experience with these for this unusual cold event(s) this year. It will be very beneficial to anyone else wanting to plant these in the future. I will try and get some pics this weekend, please try and do the same....we can compare notes.

[Alicehunter2000]

What things are looking like this morning.

[sonoranfans]

My large (15') Sabal causiarum just went through some severe cold at the beginning of January here in Augusta, GA. The temp fell to somewhere between 13F and 15F with a 30mph wind. It is too soon to tell how much damage was done, but right now there is severe wind/freeze burn on most of the leaves of four S. causiarum. They have never had damage before, even in the low 20's and upper teens, but this was the worst winter we've had in 20 or 30 years. Hopefully the damage was not to the bud. The day before the freeze was 60F and then we were below freezing for 36 hours. Very unusual.

Sabal pumos, maritima and domingensis were severely damaged, but they were young plants. S. rosei, uresana, palmetto, etonia, minor, 'Riverside' and palmetto had no damage to speak of.

I am very interested in your damage assessments concerning these species...please keep us informed on how things turned out. I didn't get quite as cold + or - 20 degrees, but I have damage to the leaves of my large 15 ft. oa causiarum. Really hoping both of our palms are ok. We both need to catelog our experience with these for this unusual cold event(s) this year. It will be very beneficial to anyone else wanting to plant these in the future. I will try and get some pics this weekend, please try and do the same....we can compare notes.

David, I think you should consider that your sabal didn't have established roots as it was recently planted. I know it is a big palm, but the underground root system was relatively small. It was a shame that you got hit so hard the first winter, that is as bad as it can get. I think that with established roots your sabal will not get so much damage in the future from that exposure. Some palms are really dependent on the underground structure, and sabals are certainly one of them. I hope for the best recovery of your yard, hang in there. As each year passes, the cold hardiness will improve in all of your palms.

[JLeVert]

The photo above from Alicehunter likes just like my Causiarums right now. It kind of makes me sick everytime I walk outside to look at them. Mine have been in the ground about 10 years, so they are well-established. I'll let you know how things look when it gets hot and the bud (hopefully) starts to push out.

[Jim in Los Altos]

In all the years I've been growing palms, I've lost two adult palms to bud rot. They were both 20+ year old trunking S. causiarum growing next to each other. It was devastating because I had grown them from one gallon plants. Strange that they both went into a huge bloom a year after they each put out their last leaf. They remained in the ground two more years, still very green but with no new growth, before I removed them and their beach ball sized trunks.

The only other Sabal I have in my garden is bermudana and I love it. It's ten years younger than my causiarum were but it's trunking and putting out about four fronds per year in its partial shade position. If I had more room, I'd plant more Sabals.

[Phoenikakias]

Now this is a highly interesting information, Jim! Have your Sabal causiarum spear pulled prior to decline or conversely they first stopped promoting whatever new growth and at final stage they spear pulled? If latter is the case, then it resembles a strange sudden death. Any way the incident you have just described has revived my memory, because something similiar has happened also on a Sabal bermudana of mine. It was a specimen that was growing amazingly fast for a Sabal in my garden and survived seemingly the frost event of 2004 with little to none damage. Any idea of the causes of the bud rot on your Sabal?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have a sabal bermudana that developed bud rot last Summer but recovered. I am giving it until Spring but will probably rip it out and replace it with a new specimen given how common this palm is. I think it's the luck of the draw, some specimens are simply weak.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Now this is a highly interesting information, Jim! Have your Sabal causiarum spear pulled prior to decline or conversely they first stopped promoting whatever new growth and at final stage they spear pulled? If latter is the case, then it resembles a strange sudden death. Any way the incident you have just described has revived my memory, because something similiar has happened also on a Sabal bermudana of mine. It was a specimen that was growing amazingly fast for a Sabal in my garden and survived seemingly the frost event of 2004 with little to none damage. Any idea of the causes of the bud rot on your Sabal?

Koeppen, I wish I knew why they BOTH died from bud rot. I did notice that the last leaves they put out were smaller than the other leaves. The bud area became black and knarly looking like what a big cauliflower would look like if black. I tried cutting it out and applying hydrogen peroxide twice a week for several weeks with no luck. These palms never got overhead watering and were otherwise very robust growers until they got sick.

[Phoenikakias]

Thanks Jim, would you consider as possible cause of death also an accute manganese deficiency without any previous warnings, sort of sudden death syndrome?

[Kostas]

Here is an updated photo of one of my Sabal from Basilios

As you can see, it has grown a lot and is more than 1,2m tall now! Lower leafs are trashed from meeting a weed whacker....(someones bright idea while i was away....)

Are we set on them being Sabal domingensis instead of S. causiarum the seed they grew from was bought as? Seeing Ron's picture of a Sabal causiarum on his thread, i am even more sure these are not causiarum.

Thank you very much in advance!

[Rafael]

Nice looking sabal and impressive growth speed. I am growing both species causiarum and dominguensis, but i am unable to notice big differences between them at juvenille stage

[Kostas]

Thank you Rafael I was amazed by the growth rate as well, this was just its second year in the ground! Next year it will easily be taller than me.

There is supposedly a significant difference in the degree of splitting of the leafs in young palms of these two species, with S. causiarum splitting fully early on while domingensis retaining wide strap segments much longer. You can see the leafs on mine are not split anywhere near fully yet while if you check the photo of S. causiarum in Ron's thread(Waiting on Keith...), the leafs are fully split.

[LUSITANIA/PALMS]

Here is an updated photo of one of my Sabal from Basilios

As you can see, it has grown a lot and is more than 1,2m tall now! Lower leafs are trashed from meeting a weed whacker....(someones bright idea while i was away....)

Are we set on them being Sabal domingensis instead of S. causiarum the seed they grew from was bought as? Seeing Ron's picture of a Sabal causiarum on his thread, i am even more sure these are not causiarum.

Thank you very much in advance!

Hello

By the shape of the leaves that stage, sabal causiarum is almost certain that it is not!

sm

[Josh-O]

looks like sabal domingensis to me

[Phoenikakias]

Hopefully they do not prove minor! When a Sabal palm is not what it is supposed to be, then it probably is minor! Let's hope that new leaves get more and more costapalmate...

[Kostas]

Great to hear that SM and Josh!

They are from Rarepalmseeds seeds, no chance of them being Sabal minor. They have good chance of being domingensis which is sympatric with causiarum and I actually like domingensis better!

[Kostas]

Here is one of my S. domingensis now

Are we set on S. domingensis as ID? As you can see, it cold damaged a bit from brief -3C last winter

[foxtail]

Nice grow bro!!!

[Phoenikakias]

Jesus, not againnnnnnnnnnnnn!

[Kostas]

Thanks bro

[RJ]

So this is a really good thread packed with great information. 

 

Can anyone add as to when Sabal causiarum starts to display split leaves. I have several Sabal causiarum from different sources and they look different from each other.  Perhaps some pictures of known Sabal causiarum in the juvenile stage would help me clear things up. 

@sonoranfans had some pictures posted but it looks like they are no longer there? 

Thanks

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by RJ

[sonoranfans]

Just to clear things up, I never had a domingensis my domingensis was a causiarum as verified by the 3rd order inflorescence branching and 7-9mm fruit.  It also now produces good sized ligules.  Its the fastest fan palm I have ever grown, attaining ~22 ft overall in 8 years from a strap leaf seedling in half day direct sun.  It is also planted in a high clay area(maybe half clay/half sand?) of my yard, 10' from the house foundation where they bring in clay to support the slab.    The first pic the palm crown is almost over the 10 1/2' eave with 7-8' trunk.  Second pic a close up of the trunk with 1.5 cubic foot mulch bags for scale.  The trunk is more than 3' thick at the swollen point.  Pictured are 6+ years ago sept2013, second in july 2011 just before planting in a 7 gallon pot and third a couple months ago.