Costapalmate Fronds

[SubTropicRay]

Nice stuff.

[Howeadypsis]

Snow Patrol Wal?

[Kris]

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,08:53)

QUOTE

If I lay here

If I just lay here

Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

Forget what we're told

Before we get too old

Show me a garden that's bursting into life

Dear Wal that song or poetry is very nice.

And have you seen the movie_from here to eternity.

the above poetry works fine with the scenes of this

movie.

Whenever i see beautiful things i wish i was poet

like william words,robert frost,shelly..

But irony is i have to be contented saying my eyes

are feasting or you made my day.at that moment

i actually wish to make a poetic phrase which should

be quite impressive.

your are doing that work great_keep it up !

And ruskin palm_ thanks for that Bizie Lady.this topic

was becoming slightly dry for my head,your palms

stills have once again regunavated my adriliene system

in my heart.

Love,

Kris.

[Trópico]

Kris, don't undermine yourself, you are truly a poet! I enjoy reading your posts, they look like they can be published as poetry and make best sellers someday, since they express your true feelings about a topic, a palm, or a picture in a manner most of us can't.

[Trópico]

Sabal mauritiiformis

[Howeadypsis]

Right now that i can view the pics probably I see that basically its a palmate leaf with a central midrib, in essence a mix of the two!

[MattyB]

(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 31 2007,04:41)

QUOTE

Is Bismarckia considered costapalmate?

Yes, Bismarckia is costapalmate, yet only showing this trait as the leaves get bigger.  It starts off palmate.

[Don Little]

From the descriptions I have read it is.  Will look at mine when I get home.

[Utopia Palms]

Dear Wal,

Thank you very much for your support!! And very well put! Yet again your comments have put a smile on my face and made me laugh for quite a while.

I’m glad that most have a better understanding of Costapalmate now.

I still think there could be some more photos out there from other forum members to list for all to see, does anyone have some photos of some of the Hyphane to share with the forum?

And Matt.B

Bismarkia is a good example of this also, showing that they all do not show this trait from a young age Thank you.

[ruskinPalms]

 Thanks Matt, I thought I was going crazy because my baby Bismackias were clearly not costapalmate. I was beginning to think that the big palms were different from what I have or vice versa.

[Walter John]

Thanks for the correction MB. I get carried away, one day I'll get taken away.

See you Sunday Clayton.

[Kathy]

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,08:53)

QUOTE

I hope that's cleared things up for Kathy.

If I lay here

If I just lay here

Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

Forget what we're told

Before we get too old

Show me a garden that's bursting into life

Beautiful Wal, ever the poet to cheer us.

Everyone, this thread is so helpful.  I'm looking forward now to more photos and species showing this trait.

Very interesting that a palm can really be one way as a baby / juvenile and advance into costapalmate as it ages.  Palms are even more complex and complicated that I thought!

[Walter John]

(Kathy @ Feb. 02 2007,08:52)

QUOTE

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,08:53)

QUOTE

I hope that's cleared things up for Kathy.

If I lay here

If I just lay here

Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

Forget what we're told

Before we get too old

Show me a garden that's bursting into life

Beautiful Wal, ever the poet to cheer us.

Everyone, this thread is so helpful.  I'm looking forward now to more photos and species showing this trait.

Very interesting that a palm can really be one way as a baby / juvenile and advance into costapalmate as it ages.  Palms are even more complex and complicated that I thought!

These lines are from the lyrics of the song "Chasing Cars" by Snow Patrol.

[bgl]

Here are two more that I assume have to be considered costapalmate:

Mauritiella armata

[bgl]

And Mauritia flexuosa. This shot was taken looking straight up.

[tim_brissy_13]

I think some of the confusion over costapalmate leaves is because many palmate palms are to some extent costapalmate.  For example, Washingtonia robusta is weakly costapalmate as its extended midrib causes the leaf to arch back slightly, while Sabal palmetto is strongly costapalmate and it is much more obvious.  Many costapalmate palms only have flat palmate first character leaves when they are young.

[palmazon]

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,05:25)

QUOTE

Somebody help me here, where's palmazon when you really need him ?

I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round & round

[Howeadypsis]

(palmazon @ Feb. 02 2007,13:35)

QUOTE

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,05:25)

QUOTE

Somebody help me here, where's palmazon when you really need him ?

I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round & round

Listening to John Lennon?

[Kris]

Dear Matty  

Kindly refrain from using that perticular Bizie lady still

of that perticular location along with that lovely U.S flag.

Since this lady is disturbing my inner peace,i may be compelled to leave my home town to U.S and camp under the feet of that

beautiful lady(i mean the Bizie lady).hoo boy its hot_i think wal

can understand my feeling for shure ?  

Jesus christ i want my bizie lady to grown like that one !

Kris  

[MattyB]

Someone give Kris a cold shower!

[Utopia Palms]

I’M glad this topic has turned around and we all can see the funny side!

     

And Kris get that Bissy in the ground it will grow very FAST for you!! This will save you some money on those Air fairs

[Bayou Bob]

Hi Kathy, What a delicious Sabal mauritiformis you have; I think it came from my candy shop. Hope it still looks that good after the freeze. Costapalmate leaves are actually more primitive than either pinnate or truly palmate (Some of the oldest palm fossils on Earth are Sabalites from the U.S.). With costapalmate leaves the petioloe extends into the blade and the leaflets arise from along the rachis (the continuation of the petiole into the blade); with truly palmate leaves the leaflets all arise from  a central point at the end of the petiole, like a fan. That point is the hastula, which can be quite distinct, such as on Trachycarpus takils.

[chris.oz]

(Bayou Bob @ Feb. 02 2007,23:50)

QUOTE

Hi Kathy, What a delicious Sabal mauritiformis you have; I think it came from my candy shop. Hope it still looks that good after the freeze. Costapalmate leaves are actually more primitive than either pinnate or truly palmate (Some of the oldest palm fossils on Earth are Sabalites from the U.S.). With costapalmate leaves the petioloe extends into the blade and the leaflets arise from along the rachis (the continuation of the petiole into the blade); with truly palmate leaves the leaflets all arise from  a central point at the end of the petiole, like a fan. That point is the hastula, which can be quite distinct, such as on Trachycarpus takils.

I think it might be useful to show the underside of a palmate leaf to illustrate a true palmate leaf for comparison.

This is Rhapis humilis:

[Kathy]

Yes, Chris, it does help us newbies to see and be reminded with photos such as this.

[Kathy]

(Bayou Bob @ Feb. 02 2007,23:50)

QUOTE

Hi Kathy, What a delicious Sabal mauritiformis you have; I think it came from my candy shop. Hope it still looks that good after the freeze. Costapalmate leaves are actually more primitive than either pinnate or truly palmate (Some of the oldest palm fossils on Earth are Sabalites from the U.S.). With costapalmate leaves the petioloe extends into the blade and the leaflets arise from along the rachis (the continuation of the petiole into the blade); with truly palmate leaves the leaflets all arise from  a central point at the end of the petiole, like a fan. That point is the hastula, which can be quite distinct, such as on Trachycarpus takils.

Hi Bob.  Yes, I posted in the Freeze forum that mine is doing well after 24F / approx -4.5C, and yes it is from your place  --  and I appreciate your added info.

[Kathy]

(bgl @ Feb. 01 2007,20:46)

QUOTE

Here are two more that I assume have to be considered costapalmate:

Mauritiella armata

That's a beauty.

[Kathy]

(krisachar @ Feb. 02 2007,10:47)

QUOTE

Dear Matty  

Kindly refrain from using that perticular Bizie lady still

of that perticular location along with that lovely U.S flag.

Since this lady is disturbing my inner peace,i may be compelled to leave my home town to U.S and camp under the feet of that

beautiful lady(i mean the Bizie lady).hoo boy its hot_i think wal

can understand my feeling for shure ?  

Jesus christ i want my bizie lady to grown like that one !

Kris  

Kris, you always bring smiles  --

Why don't you post more of your costapalmate palms for us ?  

[Tad]

livistona

[Kris]

Dear Matty & Clayton  

i have to express my views in an essay but your guys are terrefic,since you are capable of doing the same in just

few words.i should learn that art from you guys.and its

brief & to the point_simply Lovely !

And Kathy_to be fank with you all,i am running out of time

nowadays.my work,few garden work & visiting palmtak org

has totally put my normal schedules out of gear.no t.v soaps,

no visit to new release cinema_at halls.

this is becoming an addiction of some kind & after the cold wave in u.s that hit our day to day threads along with the soil seed germination teq page merger into the main discussion board has made my life hecttic.at this rate of speed in this forum it is more likely i will get a heart attack ?

or i dont not know its wheather iam going old for that speed ?

all the pages are dissapering from the main page like hot cakes in a reputed bakery_thanks for the help_Mr.Dean  

Kris  

[DoomsDave]

(Kathy @ Jan. 30 2007,16:05)

QUOTE

(Wal @ Jan. 30 2007,15:31)

QUOTE

(Howeadypsis @ Jan. 31 2007,04:54)

QUOTE

you know i have no idea what you're talking about!

Hi Larry

Costapalmate leaves are simply a combo look of palmate (fan) and pinnate (feather). You see this with Sabals. Pretty much a fan shaped leaf which is mostly split naturally. How's that ?

Someone else can even add more to this definition, but as I understand it (correct me please), palmate looks like your hand and was first in the evolutionary timeline;  costapalmate is mid-way between palmate and pinnate and has the midrib extending out onto the segment area (poor wording -- help!);  and of course pinnate looks like a feather.

Don't know what this palm is, but it's beautiful and costapalmate I do believe, as you can see the midrib (center thick line on each frond) extending out (experts, please correct me as needed -- just fumbling here!) --

Experts - am I correct?

So Larry, go look at the backside of your palms and take some pics for us !

Kathy:

That looks like a Pritchardia of some kind.

Maybe hillebrandtii.

dave

[DoomsDave]

Here's a costapalmate P. hillebrandtii.  (A bit of a beating from the freeze, but it's already beginning to recover.)

[JT in Japan]

Part of my palm education is going back and reading old Palmtalk topics; I'm up to January 2007 now, and learning lots, thanks to the ongoing passions of Palmtalk's members. One simple thing that has been confounding me, for example, has been the visual keys to identifying palms in situ. This extensive thread on costapalmate vs. other, started by Kathy, is educational, entertaining, and fulfilling. I cite Wal's comment below for its humour and passion; this is the kind of stuff creates, in the newbie like me, a commitment and a passion for life. Thanks for the education, lifers.

JT

Nobody is offended Chris and thanks on behalf of the rest of the players for your bravado.

Now, firstly, if somebody said Pritchardia is costapalmate, then they are wrong. Let's drive the spike here and now. and Clayton, you are an expert, you just haven't written anything, I don't think, if you do, I'll be your editor, I'll take my cost out in palms thanks.

Let's break it down in simple terms, costapalmate is not unlike your hand, your wrist is the petiole, your hand is the leaf, there's the broad part and the fingers. Now a palmate hand might belong to say, Ian Thorpe, just paddles, or an english bowler, nothing happening there.

The point is, there's usually no cut and dried explanantions. Palm scientists don't like leeway, whilst gardeners of palms know better. We just don't write about it, we do it instead. Things like "you can't grow that species in Melbourne, Australia mate" or in La Habra Califoirnia or wherever, bulldust I say.

Palm growing is unique, there's buggerall doing it, we are saving something important and beautiful by planting across the planet. Give yourselves a pat on the back with your costapalmate hand and thank your lucky stars you have this delightful passion we call a palm loving disease. Let's hope we don't find a cure.

Amen.

.

[WestCoastGal]

Interesting thread and leading to a basic understanding of palm frond structure. Something I still need to learn more about. Thanks to Mortaljp calling up this older thread, I too found myself unsure as to how to describe the differences between costapalmate and palmate. Heard of both, but would be hard pressed to look at a frond and correctly identify it. Right now most of our palms are pinnate but that will change soon and I figure I should know the differences in fan palms.

The illustrations on this following site still had me puzzled. Looked much the same: http://itp.lucidcentral.org/id/palms/palm-id/palm_morphology.htm

However I think the photos and discussion on this website help better illustrate the differences. As Bob Harms says, the way it has been described in various sources is somewhat confusing...so guess we shouldn't feel too bad: http://www.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/DigFlora/Waller/costapalmate.html

So as I see it when trying to determine if a fan palm is costapalmate or palmate in structure, the costa and hastula should be examined. The best way to look at the frond is from the underside where the costa will be more obvious. Costapalmates will have a costa that can vary in length and be more pointy in shape, the longer the costa the more stronger feature of costapalmate; and the leaf segments will eminate from various points along the length of the costa at its hastula. Palmates will have a costa/hastula that more closely resembles a closed fist from which the leaf segments radiate from all around the hastula. Costapalmates will also display a dip of some sort in the center midrib section as viewed from the top of the frond.

Does this sound right? Am I overlooking some other identifying feature?

One of these days I'll focus on identifying leaflet shapes....

[Tazkam]

On 2/2/2007 at 9:50 PM, Bayou Bob said:

With costapalmate leaves the petioloe extends into the blade and the leaflets arise from along the rachis (the continuation of the petiole into the blade); with truly palmate leaves the leaflets all arise from  a central point at the end of the petiole, like a fan.

Bayou Bob, I'm finally glad to see your description, tho' I'm quite late to this discussion (with some joking, etc. going on! 🤔😁). From the newer edition of Ornamental Palm Horticulture, it says "costapalmate leaves... [have] the extension of the petiole into the blade of the costapalmate leaf. This extension is sometimes referred to as the Costa." And as many have mentioned, "Costapalmate leaves are often twisted or folded sharply along or at the apex of the costa."

Also An Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms defines costa as "the projection of the petiole [midrib] into the leaf blade (or lamina) of a palmate-leaved palm species." And Costapalmate is "said of a palmate leaf with a discernable costa." 

Going by those explanations I hope will clear up Kathy's puzzlement. 

[Harry’s Palms]

Digging up this old thread. I remember a conversation about frond structure and costapalmate. I was down doing work on my hill today and , while I was pulling weeds from around my Livistona Australis , I noticed that the frond has the similar costapalmate feature as my Sabal Palmetto. Harry

[ruskinPalms]

Took this pic last night. 
 

[Harry’s Palms]

1 minute ago, ruskinPalms said:

Took this pic last night. 
 

Amazing! That is the fullest crown I’ve seen . How old is it?

[Tazkam]

And some like to say palms don't produce much shade. Well, I believe under this palm would be a great shady spot to "plant" a body for relaxation!

[ruskinPalms]

Considering I scalped it for hurricane irma, it has done well.  I planted it in ground here in 2015 as a 3 to 5 gallon size. I always plant small so they can develop good root systems as they age in place. And I only trim truly dead fronds so these can hold a hell of a lot fronds if left alone. Look at this picture as a warning of their true size if you want to plant one of these…

 

[Harry’s Palms]

You’re doing something right , it is happy. Great growth for the time it’s been there.