Beccariophoenix: alfredii vs. madagascariensis

[Walt]

Years ago I had a nice Beccariophoenix madagascariensis (window form) about 8 feet high overall but lost it to cold. Funny thing, it was only partially defoliated but died anyway, most likely from bacterial bud rot, as I didn't treat it with copper sulfate.

2-3 years ago I bought a small B. madagascariensis (windowless form). Being so small I decided to container grow it up to some size before planting it out. One night, when the weatherman threw me a curve (said the low was only going down to 40 degrees but it dropped into the high 20s with heavy frost) my potted B. Mad. was almost totally fried. However, slowly but surely it started coming back.

Last month I finally planted my B. Mad. (windowless) in a semi-protected spot where it would get some overhead canopy but south sun. I suspect it will get enough sunshine to grow well, albeit maybe not as fast as being in full sun.

Yesterday I was at a nursery buying some silver saw palmettos and I noticed they had tons of 3 and 7 gallon Beccariophoenix alfredii, so I bought two 7 gallon palms.

To my untrained eye, I don't really see any discernable difference between the two species. At least not from the cursory look over I gave them. In any event, I'm deciding on just where to plant my two alfredii palms for best results. No way (after reading testimony in the freeze damage forum on this species) am I going to plant them in the open yard. I'm going to have to plant them in a broken sun area that I know from years of observation rarely gets frost, if any.

Yes, I could plant them in full sun and then bundle and wrap the fronds (insulation blanket) to prevent frost on leaves, but ultimately these palms will get too big to wrap.

I guess my question is, if anyone by now has the experience with this palm, is just what the lower sun light (direct and duation of hours during summer months) threshold is so as to get at least acceptable growth and minimal stretching of fronds.

Also, I am considering maybe just transferring my two alfredii into nicer pots and use them on the full sun part of my lanai for another year or so before planting them. I guess the bigger they go in the ground, all other things being equal, the more frost/cold they can take.

Below are two photos. The first photo is of the two alfredii I bought yesterday, the second photo of my B. madagascariensis (windowless) I planted last month:

[JD in the OC]

Walt, you have a "No Windows" there (in 2nd pic) which is Beccario madagascariensis (your botanical name was correct). Wow, you drove quite a bit to get those 2 Alfredii (Im pretty sure I know where you got them).

I would scrap that No Windows and just plant the Alfredii in its place.. it is hands down a superior species. No Windows are super slow. We had a B. alfredii planted under a large buttonwood and it got filtered light- did pretty good! Not much stretching. I

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I also have two b. alfredii's that I ended up locating under canopy but with open sun towards the south. I also concluded after all the freeze reviews that b. alfredii, while being more cool tolerant, is not all that much more frost tolerant. My conclusion from what I read is:

1) Cool growing, so will continue to sustain growth down in the 40's and 50's.

2) Hates cold wet soil in the Winter, so make sure it has proper drainage. Specimens exposed to cold wet Winter soil develop small spots on the leaves.

3) Is hardy to at least the mid 20's but only with overhead protection. Fronds will get cosmetic damage even from 28-30F. I've seen the exact same behavior with parajubaea cocoides, it can take quite a lot of cold, surviving even 14F in Dick Douglas' Walnut Creek garden (defoliated) but the darn thing will get cosmetic damage from temps as high as 28F with frost.

4) Tolerates some shade but not full shade.

My advice to you is keep the 'no windows' in a pot that you can move during cold and give the good spot to one of your b. alfrediis.

I planted a third alfredii directly in deep shade just to see if conclusion 4) is wrong. It might be a perfectly fine palm in deep shade. I did the same with parajubaea cocoides, and found out everyone was wrong, the ones I put in the shade grew well and eventually got big enough to grow past what was shading them.

[DoomsDave]

Those are nice alfredii you got there.

They're faster than "no window" by a long shot.

But, if you have the room, keep the no-window, too, especially in overhead protection. (They're slow, here, too.)

[sonoranfans]

I have one alfredii under a couple of live oak, it gets filtered light, and a minimal amount of direct sun light depending on the time of year. I also have one that is in part day sun(1/3) on the east side of a live oak. A third one is in the open, all the sun florida can offer. They were all put in the ground 2 1/2 years ago as 3 gallon palms just starting to go pinnate(2' tall). The one in the open was burned nearly to the ground by the Dec 2010 28F plus accumulated frost on leaflets 2 consecutive days(pics in freeze section). this happened only 5(?) months after planting. the other two were spared any obvious frost accumulation and never even spotted up at all. the biggesy today is the one in full sun, the one that burnt to the ground. It is 5 foot+ overall. The one in the most shade is the smallest as might be expected(~4'). None of those in part shade look elongated compared to the one in full sun, just smaller and not quite as thick a crown. They are beautiful palms, sun or part shade, I highly recommend them. As far as sun esposure, the sun they get should be in the warm season as that will spur growth. Beautiful palms walt, very nice!

Edited April 4, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Walt]

Walt, you have a "No Windows" there (in 2nd pic) which is Beccario madagascariensis (your botanical name was correct). Wow, you drove quite a bit to get those 2 Alfredii (Im pretty sure I know where you got them).

I would scrap that No Windows and just plant the Alfredii in its place.. it is hands down a superior species. No Windows are super slow. We had a B. alfredii planted under a large buttonwood and it got filtered light- did pretty good! Not much stretching. I

I bought my two Alfredii at Perkins Nursery, just about 5 miles S.E. of LaBelle. I've been dealing with them for about 10 years now. It's about a 55 minute trip one way for me, and it's easy driving.

I've found the prices at Perkins to be very resonable. I paid $23 each for my two 7 gallon afredii, and they were a good size and very healthy. No mineral deficiencies whatsoever. I also picked up eight 7 gallon silver Serenoa repens. Again these were of good size and very healthy at $25 each. No way could I find them around here, regardless of price. Well worth the trip for me.

Yes, I've found the no windows Beccario to be slow, at least compared to the window variety I once had. I hope afredii prove to be just as fast or faster.

[Walt]

I also have two b. alfredii's that I ended up locating under canopy but with open sun towards the south. I also concluded after all the freeze reviews that b. alfredii, while being more cool tolerant, is not all that much more frost tolerant. My conclusion from what I read is:

1) Cool growing, so will continue to sustain growth down in the 40's and 50's.

2) Hates cold wet soil in the Winter, so make sure it has proper drainage. Specimens exposed to cold wet Winter soil develop small spots on the leaves.

3) Is hardy to at least the mid 20's but only with overhead protection. Fronds will get cosmetic damage even from 28-30F. I've seen the exact same behavior with parajubaea cocoides, it can take quite a lot of cold, surviving even 14F in Dick Douglas' Walnut Creek garden (defoliated) but the darn thing will get cosmetic damage from temps as high as 28F with frost.

4) Tolerates some shade but not full shade.

My advice to you is keep the 'no windows' in a pot that you can move during cold and give the good spot to one of your b. alfrediis.

I planted a third alfredii directly in deep shade just to see if conclusion 4) is wrong. It might be a perfectly fine palm in deep shade. I did the same with parajubaea cocoides, and found out everyone was wrong, the ones I put in the shade grew well and eventually got big enough to grow past what was shading them.

.I believe I concur with your conclusions. I had a hunch alfredii wouldn't be as frost hardy as first indicated. Still, at least it's fairly bud hardy (can't always have everything). At least if Alfredii is fairly bud hardy and somewhat tolerant of less than full sun, I believe I can find a suitable spot for my two to survive long term.

[Walt]

Those are nice alfredii you got there.

They're faster than "no window" by a long shot.

But, if you have the room, keep the no-window, too, especially in overhead protection. (They're slow, here, too.)

I'm leaving the no windows Beccario stay where it is. I strategically planted it so that I can protect it during the coldest nights. It's close enough to my outdoor electrical receptacles so that I can provide supplementary heat if need be. But probably just a bundling the fronds and installing a insulative wrap will be enough. I say that should be enough because just feet away I have a small (4 feet of trunk) Adonidia palm that I bundle the fronds then wrap with a flannel sheet on frost nights ,and that's all that is needed to keep the foliage from being frost damaged. Surely, alfredii is more frost/cold hardy than an Adonidia merrillii.

[Walt]

I have one alfredii under a couple of live oak, it gets filtered light, and a minimal amount of direct sun light depending on the time of year. I also have one that is in part day sun(1/3) on the east side of a live oak. A third one is in the open, all the sun florida can offer. They were all put in the ground 2 1/2 years ago as 3 gallon palms just starting to go pinnate(2' tall). The one in the open was burned nearly to the ground by the Dec 2010 28F plus accumulated frost on leaflets 2 consecutive days(pics in freeze section). this happened only 5(?) months after planting. the other two were spared any obvious frost accumulation and never even spotted up at all. the biggesy today is the one in full sun, the one that burnt to the ground. It is 5 foot+ overall. The one in the most shade is the smallest as might be expected(~4'). None of those in part shade look elongated compared to the one in full sun, just smaller and not quite as thick a crown. They are beautiful palms, sun or part shade, I highly recommend them. As far as sun esposure, the sun they get should be in the warm season as that will spur growth. Beautiful palms walt, very nice!

That's interesting (your experiences with the three alfredii). This is the kind of replies I like to hear when one has multiple palms of the same species but has them planted in different settings where they are exposed differently to the elements and sun, etc. Far less reliable conclusions about a given palm species can be drawn when one only has one of said species. But getting responses from many posters (even if they only have one of a given species) gives me a good crossection of experiences, just what I was looking for, and I value all the responses.

Based on your response, I infer that even though the alfredii you have in full sun got defoliated, the fact that it is in full sun allows it to recover fast and produce faster growth vis a vis the ones more shade grown that produce less photosynthesis.

Based so far on all of the above replies I've got, I'm definitly now leaning on planting my alfredii in broken sun and semi-canopy areas. I'd rather have a slower growing (but beautiful) palm than one that grows faster but gets cosmetically thrashed from frost. While I did manage to have a zone 10a winter, I did have three nights of frost, with one night of the three being on the medium side.

[ando.wsu]

I thought I would lend my experience with my B. Alfredii. Mine is this small strap leaf plant that I left uncovered during our mid 20 degree 5 day stent. I didn't cover it cause I forgot about it and this is how it looks today. It was trying to push out a new leaf, not pictured due to the angle of the photo, all winter long. Now that the soil has warmed up some it is growing faster, but still slow.

I planted it a year ago from a bare root plant so I suspect a little plant shock. Its planted on the north side of a block fence and got zero sun all winter long. It now only gets maybe an hour of morning sun. During the peak of summer it should acquire 8 plus hours of sunlight.

But, more importantly, no protection from mid 20's and no damage. Although it got cold, I never saw frost. Maybe we don't have enough winter humidity to get such a thing. I guess this isn't apples to apples comparison, but hopefully this concludes that it toughed it out pretty good with cold temperatures. I have two washies that burned pretty bad and so this must indicate that it was cold. Not sure at what temp washies burn, but what ever temperature that is, was the temperature in my backyard.

I cannot wait until the day my B.A. gets to your 7 gallon size. That will be good enough for me.

Ando

[ando.wsu]

I thought I would lend my experience with my B. Alfredii. Mine is this small strap leaf plant that I left uncovered during our mid 20 degree 5 day stent. I didn't cover it cause I forgot about it and this is how it looks today. It was trying to push out a new leaf, not pictured due to the angle of the photo, all winter long. Now that the soil has warmed up some it is growing faster, but still slow.

I planted it a year ago from a bare root plant so I suspect a little plant shock. Its planted on the north side of a block fence and got zero sun all winter long. It now only gets maybe an hour of morning sun. During the peak of summer it should acquire 8 plus hours of sunlight.

But, more importantly, no protection from mid 20's and no damage. Although it got cold, I never saw frost. Maybe we don't have enough winter humidity to get such a thing. I guess this isn't apples to apples comparison, but hopefully this concludes that it toughed it out pretty good with cold temperatures. I have two washies that burned pretty bad and so this must indicate that it was cold. Not sure at what temp washies burn, but what ever temperature that is, was the temperature in my backyard.

I cannot wait until the day my B.A. gets to your 7 gallon size. That will be good enough for me.

Andophoto.JPG

sorry that its sideways :/ Its worth the kink in your neck to look at it. Ha!

[Hammer]

Good call! Keep the B.mad. is my vote!!

I'm a fan of both species. Something about the B.mad. that I really like. It's a slow one. The alfredii is about 4x as fast in my experience. But the B.mad. has something cool about it. It may be slow but that also means it will keep visual interest at eye level for a lot longer.

The B.mad. is distinguishable from alfredii in two ways that I have noticed (when young). Terminal leaflets on B.mad. are much shorter than the rest of the leaflets. With alfredii this is not the case. The terminal leaflets are just as long as the others.

B.mad. is also much cleaner, neater and upright. Alfredii looks more disheveled.

[Phoenikakias]

I find this post a good occasion to put some questions regarding the Beccariophoenix genus. I have three seedlings from seeds being presumably all alfredii Two of them have already started obviously leaning but they feel quite anchored in the pot medium. Is this a sign of a tillering action? The third one is entirely upright and though exactly the same age and size with previous two, new leaf is bifid, while on other two it is stil entire. Leaf texture, color and growth speed are similiar. All three seedlings are growing in the same pot but the two plants with still strap leaves are more exposed to sun. So my next question is could it be possible the the third seedling with the bifid leaf is not alfredii or all this differentiation has to do with the more sun exposure and consequent heating of pot wall and adjacent medium, which leads both strap leaf seedlings to hide deeper in cooler medium layers? Pics will follow.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Walt

Those are very nice B alfredii !

I have a small one down here but growth is super slow !

[Walt]

I thought I would lend my experience with my B. Alfredii. Mine is this small strap leaf plant that I left uncovered during our mid 20 degree 5 day stent. I didn't cover it cause I forgot about it and this is how it looks today. It was trying to push out a new leaf, not pictured due to the angle of the photo, all winter long. Now that the soil has warmed up some it is growing faster, but still slow.

I planted it a year ago from a bare root plant so I suspect a little plant shock. Its planted on the north side of a block fence and got zero sun all winter long. It now only gets maybe an hour of morning sun. During the peak of summer it should acquire 8 plus hours of sunlight.

But, more importantly, no protection from mid 20's and no damage. Although it got cold, I never saw frost. Maybe we don't have enough winter humidity to get such a thing. I guess this isn't apples to apples comparison, but hopefully this concludes that it toughed it out pretty good with cold temperatures. I have two washies that burned pretty bad and so this must indicate that it was cold. Not sure at what temp washies burn, but what ever temperature that is, was the temperature in my backyard.

I cannot wait until the day my B.A. gets to your 7 gallon size. That will be good enough for me.

Andophoto.JPG

sorry that its sideways :/ Its worth the kink in your neck to look at it. Ha!

I must say I'm surprised that Washies got cold damage by such a small afredii did not, especially since it is so small and low to the ground. You will probably need to experience many more cold events to draw some firm conclusions. But at least at this point you are ahead of the game (your alfredii isn't cold damaged).

[Walt]

Good call! Keep the B.mad. is my vote!!

I'm a fan of both species. Something about the B.mad. that I really like. It's a slow one. The alfredii is about 4x as fast in my experience. But the B.mad. has something cool about it. It may be slow but that also means it will keep visual interest at eye level for a lot longer.

The B.mad. is distinguishable from alfredii in two ways that I have noticed (when young). Terminal leaflets on B.mad. are much shorter than the rest of the leaflets. With alfredii this is not the case. The terminal leaflets are just as long as the others.

B.mad. is also much cleaner, neater and upright. Alfredii looks more disheveled.

I'm letting my B mad. stay put as I like it where it's at (easily seen in my front yard). Further, it's in a place where I can easily protect it. The fact that it's a slow grower doesn't really bother me now, now that I have the two alfredii.

I will check out the terminal leaflets on my palms for comparison.

[Walt]

I find this post a good occasion to put some questions regarding the Beccariophoenix genus. I have three seedlings from seeds being presumably all alfredii Two of them have already started obviously leaning but they feel quite anchored in the pot medium. Is this a sign of a tillering action? The third one is entirely upright and though exactly the same age and size with previous two, new leaf is bifid, while on other two it is stil entire. Leaf texture, color and growth speed are similiar. All three seedlings are growing in the same pot but the two plants with still strap leaves are more exposed to sun. So my next question is could it be possible the the third seedling with the bifid leaf is not alfredii or all this differentiation has to do with the more sun exposure and consequent heating of pot wall and adjacent medium, which leads both strap leaf seedlings to hide deeper in cooler medium layers? Pics will follow.

I can't speak to any of your questions but it prompted me to ask my own question. I'm wondering how many fronds a year B. alfredii produces once it reaches trunk stage, or at least once 2-3 fronds into the character leaf stage? Of course, this would depend on one's climate, so I would base my question on a B. alfredii growing in a Florida-like zone 10 or above climate.

[Walt]

Walt

Those are very nice B alfredii !

I have a small one down here but growth is super slow !

Thanks! I planted my alfredii just 2-3 meters from where my Howea forsteriana (the one that died) once grew. I know you remember that one that just didn't want to grow for me.

[sonoranfans]

I find this post a good occasion to put some questions regarding the Beccariophoenix genus. I have three seedlings from seeds being presumably all alfredii Two of them have already started obviously leaning but they feel quite anchored in the pot medium. Is this a sign of a tillering action? The third one is entirely upright and though exactly the same age and size with previous two, new leaf is bifid, while on other two it is stil entire. Leaf texture, color and growth speed are similiar. All three seedlings are growing in the same pot but the two plants with still strap leaves are more exposed to sun. So my next question is could it be possible the the third seedling with the bifid leaf is not alfredii or all this differentiation has to do with the more sun exposure and consequent heating of pot wall and adjacent medium, which leads both strap leaf seedlings to hide deeper in cooler medium layers? Pics will follow.

I can't speak to any of your questions but it prompted me to ask my own question. I'm wondering how many fronds a year B. alfredii produces once it reaches trunk stage, or at least once 2-3 fronds into the character leaf stage? Of course, this would depend on one's climate, so I would base my question on a B. alfredii growing in a Florida-like zone 10 or above climate.

Walt,

The first summer should allow the roots of your alfredii to establish. By the second summer it should be putting out about 4-6 fronds per year depending on sun. After that I dont know. Mine look maybe a year ahead of yours, which are fantastic potted specimens by the way! When they are trunking, I have no idea. What I have found interesting is how the fronds are getting longer as it grows. this palm seems to really lengthen fronds quickly with growth, moreso than some others that throw out more fronds. I can hardly wait till they are 10'+ long!

[DoomsDave]

My big Alfredii in the back yard saw about 25 F this winter one night. No damage that I could see.

Uncovered. Laughed at the open sky, as they rode their burros through Guada La Habra, shooting their pistols into the air. "Bring on your frost amigo! We don't need no steenkin supplemental heat!"

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

My big Alfredii in the back yard saw about 25 F this winter one night. No damage that I could see.

Uncovered. Laughed at the open sky, as they rode their burros through Guada La Habra, shooting their pistols into the air. "Bring on your frost amigo! We don't need no steenkin supplemental heat!"

Dave, pictures, please!

Could it be that all the negative frost hardiness reviews are actually due to mis-labeled plants?

[Walt]

I find this post a good occasion to put some questions regarding the Beccariophoenix genus. I have three seedlings from seeds being presumably all alfredii Two of them have already started obviously leaning but they feel quite anchored in the pot medium. Is this a sign of a tillering action? The third one is entirely upright and though exactly the same age and size with previous two, new leaf is bifid, while on other two it is stil entire. Leaf texture, color and growth speed are similiar. All three seedlings are growing in the same pot but the two plants with still strap leaves are more exposed to sun. So my next question is could it be possible the the third seedling with the bifid leaf is not alfredii or all this differentiation has to do with the more sun exposure and consequent heating of pot wall and adjacent medium, which leads both strap leaf seedlings to hide deeper in cooler medium layers? Pics will follow.

I can't speak to any of your questions but it prompted me to ask my own question. I'm wondering how many fronds a year B. alfredii produces once it reaches trunk stage, or at least once 2-3 fronds into the character leaf stage? Of course, this would depend on one's climate, so I would base my question on a B. alfredii growing in a Florida-like zone 10 or above climate.

Walt,

The first summer should allow the roots of your alfredii to establish. By the second summer it should be putting out about 4-6 fronds per year depending on sun. After that I dont know. Mine look maybe a year ahead of yours, which are fantastic potted specimens by the way! When they are trunking, I have no idea. What I have found interesting is how the fronds are getting longer as it grows. this palm seems to really lengthen fronds quickly with growth, moreso than some others that throw out more fronds. I can hardly wait till they are 10'+ long!

Tom, I haven't bothered to count how many fronds my B. mad (no window) palm produce per year. The consenses here is that this species is slow. Well, if B. alfredii only puts out between 4-6 fronds per year, I would consider that moderate, depending on how much one frond translated into inches of new trunk.

I say this because my Arch. cunninghamiana palms put out six fronds per year and my Arch. alexandrae put out seven fronds per year. I consider them about medium speed growers (I think I'm correct in the numbers but I haven't kept track of frond count for years now). I know my bismarkia palms put out 11 fronds per year (at least they did many years ago when I used to document growth rates).

I plan to keep track of just how many palms my alfredii put out by this coming December. One of the two (I noticed today) is just starting to open the new spear. I will mark the petiole so that I can keep track of subsequent opening fronds. I also want to track daily movement of new spears. Of course, the growth rate will probably pick up as the weather gets hotter.

[mike in kurtistown]

Greetings from Hawaii, Walt. I still remember the CFPACS
meeting that we had at your place in the lake district before I left for Hawaii
in 2005.

In July 2007, I acquired two batches of seeds from RPS. One
batch was Beccariophoenix alfredii, the other B. sp. “southern form”, which I
have assumed was just another name for B. madagascariensis (“no windows”). Both
seed batches had good early germination. Seedlings have thrived without any
losses despite some mistreatment. Two of the alfredii have been planted out in
a full sun location, and two of the “southern form” will be also when I find a
place for them. Of course, I have no worries here about frosts, though Hawaii
isn’t really as warm as many non-Hawaiians might imagine.

I have an interpretation of the relative development of
these two species that differs from some of the other posters. The attached
photo shows two “southern forms” on the left and two alfrediis on the right.
The difference in size is evident and is consistent with the rest of the ten or
so plants of each variety that I have. This is interpreted as indicating that
“southern form” is slower than alfredii. However, a closer look at the smaller
“southern form” shows just as many, if not more, leaves and the same degree of
development. The difference is of the size of the plant, not the rate of
development. The larger alfrediis are actually not any more developed than the
“southern forms”, just larger in scale.

[Walt]

Greetings from Hawaii, Walt. I still remember the CFPACS

meeting that we had at your place in the lake district before I left for Hawaii

in 2005.

In July 2007, I acquired two batches of seeds from RPS. One

batch was Beccariophoenix alfredii, the other B. sp. “southern form”, which I

have assumed was just another name for B. madagascariensis (“no windows”). Both

seed batches had good early germination. Seedlings have thrived without any

losses despite some mistreatment. Two of the alfredii have been planted out in

a full sun location, and two of the “southern form” will be also when I find a

place for them. Of course, I have no worries here about frosts, though Hawaii

isn’t really as warm as many non-Hawaiians might imagine.

I have an interpretation of the relative development of

these two species that differs from some of the other posters. The attached

photo shows two “southern forms” on the left and two alfrediis on the right.

The difference in size is evident and is consistent with the rest of the ten or

so plants of each variety that I have. This is interpreted as indicating that

“southern form” is slower than alfredii. However, a closer look at the smaller

“southern form” shows just as many, if not more, leaves and the same degree of

development. The difference is of the size of the plant, not the rate of

development. The larger alfrediis are actually not any more developed than the

“southern forms”, just larger in scale.

Beccario sou frm and alfredii_MLM_040513.jpg

Hi, Mike.

Yes, I remember you from the June 2003 CFPACS meeting at my place. I believe you, Mike Dahme, and John Kennedy drove over together. A June 2013 CFPACS meeting at my place is now in the planning stage. My garden has grown considerably during the past 10 years.

Well, your photo shows the proof of the pudding with respect to the growth variance between B. Mad. (no windows) and B. alfredii.

Since you procured both seeds from the same source, germinated the seeds and grew the palms to their present sizes under the same cultural conditions, I would say your interpretational conclusions as to the two species (or variety) differences is spot on.

I remember when you moved to Hawaii and recall (somewhere) seeing photos of the property you bought. I seem to recall the property being of some acreage in what appeared to be in a more rural (or outlying from a more populated residential area), not some small lot -- with lots of potential to raise palms and tropicals.

With regard to the June 2003 CFPACS meeting at my place, somebody brought and distributed one-leafed Sabal causiarum seedlings to the members (or at least to me). For the life of me I can't recall who that was. I thought it was Mike Dahme but he said it wasn't him. Perhaps it was John Bishock. I just mention it in the event you might recall. I always like to have a story (like who, where, etc.) I got my palm from.

[Eric in Orlando]

Walt, keep the windowless form, though it is slower it will be an awesome palm.

I am growing all 3 and here is my observations from here in Orlando;

windows form- the fastest grower but also the most tender. It can tolerate some cold but no frost. And it is sensitive to long cool/cold periods like we had in 2009-10. We lost 2 of 3 that year. The absolute low was only 29F but there was 12 nights at or below 32F. These grow great in bright shade where they are better protected.

windowless form- very slow but fairly hardy, the 2 we had in the ground survived 2009-10 with little or no burn. Ours are growing under/at the edge of high tree canopy so they get bright light/frost protection

B. alfredii- these are going to be awesome palms for the warmer parts of central FL. They grow much faster as the windowless form. I have grown seeds of both at the same time and the B. alfredii are twice as big or larger. We have several planted out from shady locations to full sun in an open spot. All grow well. And they tolerated 2009-10 with no damage. One specimen grows in an open location. The night it dropped to 29F there was very heavy frost, the heaviest frost I have seen the 20 years I have been at Leu Gardens. This specimen even had no damage.

[sonoranfans]

I find this post a good occasion to put some questions regarding the Beccariophoenix genus. I have three seedlings from seeds being presumably all alfredii Two of them have already started obviously leaning but they feel quite anchored in the pot medium. Is this a sign of a tillering action? The third one is entirely upright and though exactly the same age and size with previous two, new leaf is bifid, while on other two it is stil entire. Leaf texture, color and growth speed are similiar. All three seedlings are growing in the same pot but the two plants with still strap leaves are more exposed to sun. So my next question is could it be possible the the third seedling with the bifid leaf is not alfredii or all this differentiation has to do with the more sun exposure and consequent heating of pot wall and adjacent medium, which leads both strap leaf seedlings to hide deeper in cooler medium layers? Pics will follow.

I can't speak to any of your questions but it prompted me to ask my own question. I'm wondering how many fronds a year B. alfredii produces once it reaches trunk stage, or at least once 2-3 fronds into the character leaf stage? Of course, this would depend on one's climate, so I would base my question on a B. alfredii growing in a Florida-like zone 10 or above climate.

Walt,

The first summer should allow the roots of your alfredii to establish. By the second summer it should be putting out about 4-6 fronds per year depending on sun. After that I dont know. Mine look maybe a year ahead of yours, which are fantastic potted specimens by the way! When they are trunking, I have no idea. What I have found interesting is how the fronds are getting longer as it grows. this palm seems to really lengthen fronds quickly with growth, moreso than some others that throw out more fronds. I can hardly wait till they are 10'+ long!

Tom, I haven't bothered to count how many fronds my B. mad (no window) palm produce per year. The consenses here is that this species is slow. Well, if B. alfredii only puts out between 4-6 fronds per year, I would consider that moderate, depending on how much one frond translated into inches of new trunk.

I say this because my Arch. cunninghamiana palms put out six fronds per year and my Arch. alexandrae put out seven fronds per year. I consider them about medium speed growers (I think I'm correct in the numbers but I haven't kept track of frond count for years now). I know my bismarkia palms put out 11 fronds per year (at least they did many years ago when I used to document growth rates).

I plan to keep track of just how many palms my alfredii put out by this coming December. One of the two (I noticed today) is just starting to open the new spear. I will mark the petiole so that I can keep track of subsequent opening fronds. I also want to track daily movement of new spears. Of course, the growth rate will probably pick up as the weather gets hotter.

Walt Im estimating the frond count for alfredii with the lower number the one in the most filtered light. The one in full sun was ~ 6-7 fronds but the length of the frond changed by at least 1/3 longer over the coarse of that year. I dont think I have grown a palm that lengthened this quickly/frond. So the overall height depends on numbers of fronds partly, but also their change in length. I also like you, have alexandre, myolensis, maxima(little one) and bizzies. Your numbers of fronds produced on these seem to match mine 7-8 archontos, 10-12 bizzies. And yes I agree with your assessments my achrontophoenix are notably faster than alfredii as are bizzies. But I dont know how fast the alfredii will be when trunking as its fronds exceed the length of my archontos, which is just a matter of time. All my other palms compared above are trunking so their speed is that of a trunking palm.

[Walt]

Walt, keep the windowless form, though it is slower it will be an awesome palm.

I am growing all 3 and here is my observations from here in Orlando;

windows form- the fastest grower but also the most tender. It can tolerate some cold but no frost. And it is sensitive to long cool/cold periods like we had in 2009-10. We lost 2 of 3 that year. The absolute low was only 29F but there was 12 nights at or below 32F. These grow great in bright shade where they are better protected.

windowless form- very slow but fairly hardy, the 2 we had in the ground survived 2009-10 with little or no burn. Ours are growing under/at the edge of high tree canopy so they get bright light/frost protection

B. alfredii- these are going to be awesome palms for the warmer parts of central FL. They grow much faster as the windowless form. I have grown seeds of both at the same time and the B. alfredii are twice as big or larger. We have several planted out from shady locations to full sun in an open spot. All grow well. And they tolerated 2009-10 with no damage. One specimen grows in an open location. The night it dropped to 29F there was very heavy frost, the heaviest frost I have seen the 20 years I have been at Leu Gardens. This specimen even had no damage.

Eric, Even though my windowless Beccariophoenix is small, I like the looks of it. In another year it should really be nice. No matter that it is small because it will be easier to protect from frost.

Yes, I was surprised that B. madagascariensis (windows form) was so cold tender. I lost mine to a radiational freeze on 2/14/06 (which I called the St. Valentine's Day Massacre!). I also lost a nice Syagrus botryophora (planted in the open) that I had just bought in October of 2005 at the Searle's Bros. sale. I paid well over a $100 for that palm and wasn't happy about losing it. But in the case of my B. mad. (windows) and S. botryophora, neither was more than 50% defoliated. They both lingered for months but finally died.

Bob Riffle and I were palm shopping one day at a nursery in the Loxahatchee area that was closing down, and I got a good deal on my B. Mad. (win.), along with a nice Kentiopsis oliviformis and other fairly cold tender ones (I also lost my K. oliviformis to the same freeze).

The photos below I dug out this morning. It shows the short time period in which I had my B. mad. (windows) palm. As you can see from the photo date stamps, it was growing fairly fast over a 14 month period -- with eight more months to go before it was killed, so it was even bigger by then. I really liked this palm, as did my wife; it was one of her favorite palms I was growing at the time.

[Walt]

My big Alfredii in the back yard saw about 25 F this winter one night. No damage that I could see.

Uncovered. Laughed at the open sky, as they rode their burros through Guada La Habra, shooting their pistols into the air. "Bring on your frost amigo! We don't need no steenkin supplemental heat!"

Dave, pictures, please!

Could it be that all the negative frost hardiness reviews are actually due to mis-labeled plants?

Dave: 25 degrees! That's surprising low, I would think for your location. I recall at your previous place you said you were on the edge of a hill or something and cold air readily drained off, which effectively gave you a solid 10b zone rating.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

I've had mixed results with b.alfredii. here in Modesto.

As Axel said, they do seem very tolerant of cool temps.

But not of poor drainage in the winter.

Some of the several I planted were out in the open. Some , with the soil amended with peat moss.

The ones in the open on un amended soil take a battering but remain alive after 2 winters with temps down to 27f or perhaps a little lower.

The ones planted near other plants in peat moss , seem untouched except a little spotting.

Perhaps, like most other palms, once they reach a decent size will become more hardy?. Perhaps our soil ph is too high and the peat lowers the ph allowing the palms to take more colder temps.?

Jeff

[mike in kurtistown]

Walt,

Yes I have over 8 acres on a hillside near Kurtistown, which is no more than a country store, a gas station, and a post office. But it's only 20-30 minutes from Hilo, which is big enough to have a mall, a Safeway, a Target, a Walmart, and a Home Depot. The people are nice and I like living here. Parts of my property are two large hills with O'hia trees and nasty strawberry guava clumps that I must clear somehow before I can use my shady areas. Much of the rest was 10-ft grass and a dense forest of exotic trash trees before I hired someone to come in with a D-9. There are already almost 200 entries in my planting record.

I drove Mike and John to the meeting in an extremely dilapidated old White Dodge van that I sold to a junkyard for $50 when I left for Hawaii. It had rust holes all over it, but was very useful for transporting plants to sell at our meetings. R. L. Riffle also attended the meeting. I don't remember about the Sabal causiarum seedlings. They could even have been mine, but just I don't recall.

[Tropicdoc]

Hey guys,

Been lurking a while, now registered. Im in extreme South Louisiana. Lows in lower 30s for a few winters now. I have Becc's that were sold as Alfredii. They are SLOW! They do have some windows, but they have yellow petioles...not really the purple I've been reading about. Are these Alfredii, or Mad? I keep them in a greenhouse over winter.

[redant]

Hey guys,

Been lurking a while, now registered. Im in extreme South Louisiana. Lows in lower 30s for a few winters now. I have Becc's that were sold as Alfredii. They are SLOW! They do have some windows, but they have yellow petioles...not really the purple I've been reading about. Are these Alfredii, or Mad? I keep them in a greenhouse over winter.

Pictures speak better then words

[Hammer]

Agreed. Pics would really help. But if I had to bet , sight unseen, they sould like Alfredii. I have some and they do exhibit some windows and a yellowish petiole.

The slowness could be due to cool/cold temps OR they might need bigger pots. Alfies have fast roots and don't seem to like being root bound. In my experience.

[Tropicdoc]

Yes I just pulled up three of them about 18 inches tall and planted them in 25 gallon pots.....want to eventually put them around a pool which is not yet built.... anyway, they had roots like 3 feet long! OK I'm gonna try to get some pics and show yall. Slowness may just be my impatience... I'm fairly new to palm growing and don't really know what to expect. I gave them some heat this winter. We usually get at least 6 months of HOT and HUMID weather so, hopefully they pick up speed. The reason for the comment on the slowness was that I was suspicious maybe I had "no windows". I havn't yet subjected my babies to cold. And I probably wont until they are over 5 ft tall and don't fit under a pop up greenhouse.

[Hammer]

Welcome to PT!

They will LOVE the heat and humidity this summer. You should notice them pick up speed.

[Tropicdoc]

Thanks for the warm welcome. Like I said, Im gonna get some pics once our monsoon stops down here and let yall weigh in on the ID of these palms.

[SanDimas]

To all th experts in here. I purchased a Beccario. sp. Pointed seed.

Which 1 is this... Windows? No windows? alfredii?

Greatly apprctd. Ritchy

[Tropicdoc]

OK heres a few pics. I'm pretty sure they are Alfies. I hope a few keep the yellow rachis. That just screams COCONUT to me.

[Hammer]

OK heres a few pics. I'm pretty sure they are Alfies. I hope a few keep the yellow rachis. That just screams COCONUT to me.IMG_0204.JPGIMG_0205.JPGIMG_0206.JPG

Yep. Alfredii.

Note the habitat photos show the palms growing on the edges of streams. Alfrediis like water. Especially in pots in the warm weather.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

OK heres a few pics. I'm pretty sure they are Alfies. I hope a few keep the yellow rachis. That just screams COCONUT to me.IMG_0204.JPGIMG_0205.JPGIMG_0206.JPG

Yep. Alfredii.

Note the habitat photos show the palms growing on the edges of streams. Alfrediis like water. Especially in pots in the warm weather.

I don't see how you can tell from the pictures that they are alfrediis. They look like 'no windows' to me. I now have both so I can learn tell them apart. All my alfrediis have purple petioles, even the greenest ones have some purple on the newest petiole. Alfrediis have green to purple petioles, the 'no windows' has the yellow petioles.