COLD HARDY FORUM REQUEST

[BS Man about Palms]

I was trying to figure out why the slow growth, or almost flatline.. And I think Phil Bergman may have touched on it unexpectedly some years ago when I was talking with him. He said his favorite customers were those with new Gardens. The cause is they are enthusiastic, have an area to plant and are anxious to learn and apply their new "plant knowledge".

But then.....

once their yard, garden, house, etc. is full, their return appearances are very much less. So once they have no place to PUT a palm, their interest wanes.

So, I would hypothesize that when the economy is great, folks have/had a decent disposible income, people will/would/did gravitate to this forum, but as they "grow", it takes the diehards to stay, enjoy and participate.

The Same applies to other Hobbies I have had in the past. You will often have an ebb and flow, but a core group will stay, and even then, its a smaller group that will stay/participate actively for more than 5-7 years or so.

And MOST IMPORTANTLY, I've learned to not knock volunteers unless I'm willing to do something about it, because at some point, those get tired of complaints and say "F-it" and leave abruptly. Not saying that is entirely the case on this forum.

PS. Glad the "auto-save" worked on this post.

[PALM MOD]

I would like to know on what basis anyone thinks the forum is experiencing "slow growth." I am admitting about 15-20 new PT users every week. Unfortunately the nature of forums is that the vast majority of people who register will post very infrequently, or not at all. And there is a huge number who never register. Most come here to read and learn - and look a pretty pics - which is fine with us.

Using our server's cPanel's Webalizer we had 170,000 visits (defined by unique IPs) last month (Jan), and served up almost 2 million pages. While web masters could debate the meaning of these stats for hours, that is a lot of traffic, and more than double last Jan.

[LJG]

Dean, I think people can just tell by posting activity. It has not gotten more abundant. I think a better judge would be to take "Total Posts" at a certain point in time (let's say 5 years ago) and each anniversary check again. Then run the math. Remember unique visits are described by use of cookies and more and more people block cookies and if you use unique IP, there are still a lot dynamic and anonymous browsing going on. I don’t use cookies and I come to PT a few times a day, each day. Just me alone generates a few thousand unique visits per month. Now the increase in unique visits from a few years ago to now will come from the fact you have done a great job in getting PT to be spidered and threads picked on the SEs. Run a palm search. Most likely a thread from PT comes up. I see 10 members online now but 48 "guest". The question is how to get those guest to register and participate when they find us. You and I have talked about this over the years till we were blue in the face, so no need to go into that here. Dean this isn't to downplay the IPS and your work. You guys have done a lot and I hope to see it continue. Without someone like RLR or you, this place could not function.

As far as moderator volunteers, I would do it. However I would not want anything to do with political issues as you know. That is the one thing I learned working with the IPS behind the scenes. I think allowing a few very active members (one doesn't have to be me and I would prefer it that way ) to help volunteer and do housekeeping things would be great. Moving threads, deleting spam, answering questions, etc. Once it got into politics which I know many do, those could be pushed to you.

[Trópico]

May I suggest...

Declare March the Cold Hardy appreciation month!

You can open a new temporary section for cold hardy topics, much like the lurker appreciation month. Since the scope is one month only, you don't need to commit to making a cold hardy section permanent. See how it goes, then leave it open for longer/forever, or close it, tag all the resulting topics, and move on with next month's theme.

In addition, run CH related events like CH palm of the month, store specials, books, whatever, to spark interest in an otherwise (undeserved) less appreciated facet of palm growing. If it attracts a few members then it was worth the effort.

Also, if it is possible to implement in software, something like a virtual forum where a section is defined by a set of tags. Say, all the topics are still readable from "Discussing palm trees worldwide" but if you go to the COLD HARDY section then all the tagged topics can be found there.

I for one need more CH/less worry palms for my yard.

[PALM MOD]

Len,

So you would volunteer to do only the easy moderating as long as you didn't have to interact with the PT Committee or the IPS? I wouldn't mind that gig either. A Mod has to delete and edit posts, and some people get really upset when you mess with their posts. And believe it or not, some people get bent out of shape for just moving their topic from Discussing Palms. And a mod has to monitor the "politics" in order to be on the same page with other Mods.

Tropico,

All I can do is run it past the PTC again.

But you said, "Also, if it is possible to implement in software, something like a virtual forum where a section is defined by a set of tags. Say, all the topics are still readable from "Discussing palm trees worldwide" but if you go to the COLD HARDY section then all the tagged topics can be found there." This is already the case, and why I wanted to try it. You can click on any tag and all those tagged topics can be found there, all in the same place, in a "virtual forum." That is why I have suggested this compromise. It is a way for a topic to be in 2 "forums" at the same time.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Having lived in Zone 9 or colder my entire life (except 3 months in Miami), I am one of the posters thats interested in cold hardienss. I like to sort through posts that discuss other palm lover's experiences. So, for example, as I expand my portfolio of Livistonas, I'm always searching for reports on how various species handled a freeze event. Frankly, i look @ the "Hardy" palm site too and it amazes me when I see a Trachycarpus that endures -18C, 0F year after year. And pix with snow 2' deep but the palms live and grow. Its easy to grow palms in places that stay above freezing. So, I support Dean's plan and will try to do my part to use the tagging system. And for those of you in freeze free climates, you should take a minute to view the hardy palm forums focused on climates where snow and ice fall every winter. You will probably get an eye-full of Trachycarpus, but few palms will tolerate a 2' snow and a week below freezing and still look great in the spring. Its just cool to have palms in places "too cold" for palms to grow. Anyway, I'm off the soapbox. Thanks Dean for help with the tagging.

[PALM MOD]

After reviewing "Tropico's" request again, it has dawned on me that perhaps many of you don't really understand how the tags work.

Not many users have taken advantage of them, so it is understandable why this may be the case. But that is also why I have asked for an open mind before forming an opinion.

I have noticed that "MattyB" has used them at times. As you may know, he has named his garden Manambe Lavaka, and has tagged a few of his topics with "Manambe" and "Lavaka." So, please go to this topic of his and click on one of the tags at the top of his first post. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34409-5-years-gone-in-a-second/?hl=lavaka#entry544905

You will then be taken to all of the topics he has tagged with the name of his garden. And if he had tagged all his posts about his garden, he would have a "virtual forum" of everything he ever posted pertaining to Manambe Lavaka." - with various sorting options. If you wanted to see all his topics about his garden, it is light years better than trying to use Search. Please also note that after the last post on any of these tagged topics there are suggestions as to other posts tagged with the same for easy browsing through all posts with this common tag. IMO - a much more pleasant reading experience.

The Cold Hardy Crew could even further refine their territory by tagging with "Zone 9a Europe," "North Florida," or "North Pole." At least the onus would be on them - if they wanted their topics to be found by other cold hardy people, they can tag accordingly.

[PALM MOD]

Remember unique visits are described by use of cookies and more and more people block cookies and if you use unique IP, there are still a lot dynamic and anonymous browsing going on. I don’t use cookies and I come to PT a few times a day, each day. Just me alone generates a few thousand unique visits per month.

Len, that is why I also posted the table including the stat for Total Unique Sites - 52,000. According to Webalizer, this is as accurate a figure for unique visiting individuals as possible. But even if you want to cut that number in half, that's still a lot of visitors - double the number of a year ago. And with 2 million pages viewed in one month, I wouldn't call that "slow."

Total Unique Sites

Each request made to the server comes from a unique 'site', which can be referenced by a name or ultimately, an IP address. The 'sites' number shows how many unique IP addresses made requests to the server during the reporting time period. This DOES NOT mean the number of unique individual users (real people) that visited, which is impossible to determine using just logs and the HTTP protocol (however, this number might be about as close as you will get).

But you are right about posting. I checked the logs going back to 2006. Posting peaked in 2008 and 2009. And we are down in new topics started and posts by more than 20% from that peak, and it looks like it may still be slowly declining. So while many more people are coming here to get information and view photos, less people are contributing. I bet if I could pull the stats for you and me, it would show we are contributing less than in 2009. So the question is why?

I think it is more than coincidence that participation started declining at about the same time that FaceBook, You Tube, and other competition for people's online hours started becoming major players on the web. There are so many more online options to entertain you today than 4 and 5 years ago. And members can now sit in the Chat Room, socialize, and share information there - instead of posting.

So it's probably just a changing of the landscape. But rest assured that while posting has fallen off, the overall traffic/bandwidth, and people registering in order to use features like Search and PMs, is still very much on the rise. Whatever you think of that, it is what it is.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Oh well, mobile isn't the best way to post things, some of my post didn't make it. What I was trying to say is that a board dedicated to hardy palms doesn't make sense because for most palm growers except those in truly tropical regions, some palms are always too tender to grow. So how do you define hardy palms? Zone 8b, zone 9a, zone 9b? And which type of zone, 9a Florida or 9a islands in the Pacific Northwest? Sub-forums dedicated to regional palm growing are more interesting and useful than a sub-forum dedicated to hardy palms.

[LJG]

Oh well, mobile isn't the best way to post things, some of my post didn't make it. What I was trying to say is that a board dedicated to hardy palms doesn't make sense because for most palm growers except those in truly tropical regions, some palms are always too tender to grow. So how do you define hardy palms? Zone 8b, zone 9a, zone 9b? And which type of zone, 9a Florida or 9a islands in the Pacific Northwest? Sub-forums dedicated to regional palm growing are more interesting and useful than a sub-forum dedicated to hardy palms.

How is this any different to what happens now? Differences within same zones due to geography happen now. Someone post in the forums about a 10b plant is in FL but we know it won't grow in SoCal. So in my opinion there is no new issue regarding zones raised by setting up a subforum for CH discussion. As far as what is CH, let people vote to decide. I would assume zone 9 would be the start. What ever is decided I am some would find a way to not like it, just the way it is.

I personally think regional forums do what some people fear the CH would do - segregate people into areas and not cross communicate with each other. I doubt a Hawaiian grower would read a FL specific forum for example.

[PALM MOD]

Just a note: I let one go, but now a couple more Forum Mods think this is the time and place to promote their forums where cold hardy palms are discussed. We already graciously provide a special forum for anyone to share their site (Share-a-Site). I'm a little incredulous that they would take a topic devoted to discussing the possibilities of a cold hardy forum here, and try to sneak in and disguise an off topic plug for theirs.

Just so you know - this is not the place for a post simply declaring the following, with nothing to contribute to the topic at hand:

"If you want a board similar to Palm Talk, don't forget to check out the The Blank Web Forum"

[kahili]

I have been reading all the posts on this subject for a few days now, and have been thinking about it, and I don't think that I would go to the trouble of creating a sub-forum for CH palms. Here's why and its mostly purely subjective- #1 reason is that I come here (and have palms in my yard) because I just love palms-always have. A palm is a palm to me-no matter where it is grown. I love to see all the pictures of all the palms on here, even though I don't stand a chance of growing most of them. I have been to several cold hardy forums and I get bored very easily there. Why? Because there is only so much you can say about the very limited amt of palms that are discussed there. Most of the people on those forums (that I could see) are zone 5-8 and you are talking about what? 8-15 different palms. I have a pretty good idea of what I can grow in my yard, whether I am pushing the zones and have to cover periodically or not. I don't want to discuss it everyday. And it would be boring to see just Trachys etc. I can go outside and see those, which I do.

I think that if people on the coldhardy forums want more than what they have, they could/should come here. I don't know why they don't expand their horizons by coming here-the more palms the better is why I come. Someone said that when someone comes here and shows a Trachy that they feel belittled by some in this crowd, and I can easily see that happening-but so what? That happens in life everyday in some sort of manner. I also see a lot of people here in awe that someone could keep a palm alive in the colder climates.

As someone living in a colder climate, I have no problem coming here and getting info on the cold hardiness of a certain palm-its not that hard. So I don't know why these people that are on the CH forums don't come here more. But if they don't want to come here for the palms that they can't grow, why would they come here even if you set up a sub-forum? They already have that.

I do try to answer questions about what palms will grow where in the colder climates when a new person asks!

Also-A+ to Len for his efforts to increase the traffic/posts on this forum. You rock Len!!

[WestCoastGal]

Aren't frost and freezing temperatures the natural delineation for Cold Hardy? Sure there's length of time, humidity and wind involved but I kind of thought USDA Zone 9 pretty much set it as the top for cold hardy.

Sunset has broken zones out in a more helpful categorizing method based on the other factors, but tags in nurseries I believe only list USDA zones, if mentioned at all. So why not just agree Cold Hardy is Zone 9 and below.

I'm still a newbie so saying this from my perspective. Newbies probably first learn they are in either a cold hardy zone or not, and chosing palms that could die from frost or freezing due to uncontrollable temps outside can not only end up killing your planting budget but damage your spirit from losing something due to the cold. I think not having a cold hardy forum area for like-located newbie growers to go to makes it harder on them to get involved, start learning about what can grow well for them, and maybe hang around here on a regular basis to share their experiences and make this a home. Despite some posts on mules, trachycarpus and a few others, I too feel this is more of a warmer zone forum, which is just fine unless you are really trying to attract more cold hardy memebers. Certainly there is all kinds of general info to be learned from people here be it how to plant a palm, to diseases, to watering and mulching experiences regardless of growing zone but the first thing cold hardy newbies want to learn is what will grow for them and tips for making their first garden a success in their eyes. If you are a cold hardy zone newbie coming here, there isn't a quick and easy place for them to first land and form friendships among like grouped people. I got a lot of my early knowledge by going to various other sites and finding cold hardy areas and then found some xButiagyrus palm people posting on here and decided to stick around.

I thought the whole point of someone asking to set up a cold hardy area was to attract more potential members from that category who would feel at home here. IMO tagging is not setting up a "home". It's random linked threads, if maintained.

[sonoranfans]

Aren't frost and freezing temperatures the natural delineation for Cold Hardy? Sure there's length of time, humidity and wind involved but I kind of thought USDA Zone 9 pretty much set it as the top for cold hardy.

Sunset has broken zones out in a more helpful categorizing method based on the other factors, but tags in nurseries I believe only list USDA zones, if mentioned at all. So why not just agree Cold Hardy is Zone 9 and below.

I'm still a newbie so saying this from my perspective. Newbies probably first learn they are in either a cold hardy zone or not, and chosing palms that could die from frost or freezing due to uncontrollable temps outside can not only end up killing your planting budget but damage your spirit from losing something due to the cold. I think not having a cold hardy forum area for like-located newbie growers to go to makes it harder on them to get involved, start learning about what can grow well for them, and maybe hang around here on a regular basis to share their experiences and make this a home. Despite some posts on mules, trachycarpus and a few others, I too feel this is more of a warmer zone forum, which is just fine unless you are really trying to attract more cold hardy memebers. Certainly there is all kinds of general info to be learned from people here be it how to plant a palm, to diseases, to watering and mulching experiences regardless of growing zone but the first thing cold hardy newbies want to learn is what will grow for them and tips for making their first garden a success in their eyes. If you are a cold hardy zone newbie coming here, there isn't a quick and easy place for them to first land and form friendships among like grouped people. I got a lot of my early knowledge by going to various other sites and finding cold hardy areas and then found some xButiagyrus palm people posting on here and decided to stick around.

I thought the whole point of someone asking to set up a cold hardy area was to attract more potential members from that category who would feel at home here. IMO tagging is not setting up a "home". It's random linked threads, if maintained.

There doesnt have to be a hard cutoff, but most palms are not possible 9a and below due to cold tolerance alone, so its a good estimate of a cold hardy line. When I was new to palms and was in zone 9a, I was interested in palms that I could grow. I was interested in posts with growing and care information. The poster didnt have to be in zone 9a, but the palms needed to be 9a hardy. You can learn alot about palms aside from cold hardiness. I had found that very few zone 10ers grew sabals and I was interested in growing sabals. So I would say the zone delineation should not be a sharp cutoff and that its partly the palms and their appropriate zones, but also the posters and their growing zone for winter care information.