Licuala peltata vs. elegans

[Jeff Searle]

I agree with John. This is a unique situation, and is not the same as using a "common name" when referring to a palm. As he noted, all "hell would break loose" if we started to use an already described and recognized latin binomial as a "common name" for another already described and recognized species. Common names are not latin binomials.

Call Licuala peltata var. sumawongii the "Elegant Licuala" if you like, but not Licuala elegans, because it is not.

Thank-you John and Dean,

One of the reasons people come to this forum is, to learn, collaborate, and educate one another from our experiences. It's 2012 now, so it would be helpfull to all if the most current names are used.

[Palmarum]

When I make a palm list or sales booklet type item I try to include common names if there is room for them. This isn't always possible, due to spacial limitations, but I do try to provide as much information as I can in regards to synonyms and name changes. For the purposes of having a common name for Licuala peltata var. sumawongii, I usually call it Sumawong's Palm, and when certain customers and collectors ask for it they may just say 'sumawongii'.

Ryan

[Walter John]

I agree with John. This is a unique situation, and is not the same as using a "common name" when referring to a palm. As he noted, all "hell would break loose" if we started to use an already described and recognized latin binomial as a "common name" for another already described and recognized species. Common names are not latin binomials.

Call Licuala peltata var. sumowongii the "Elegant Licuala" if you like, but not Licuala elegans, because it is not.

Thank-you John and Dean,

One of the reasons people come to this forum is, to learn, collaborate, and educate one another from our experiences. It's 2012 now, so it would be helpfull to all if the most current names are used.

Hang on Jeff, 2012 now ?, I'm trying to slow my life down, not speed it up..

[Pedro 65]

My attempt at humour was to highlight two Licuala species, both taxonomically legitimate. One is incredibly affordable due to it's proliferation, whilst the other is of "mythological status". The joke was intended to highlight my instinctive indifference, and my comment, "not right in so many ways" was an appreciation that many think differently. After all, I did not say it was, "wrong".

However, since I was PM'd and mildy "goaded" with the question, "Have you ever seen a Licuala elegans?" I will say this. To me, the idea of a Latin binomial being adopted and used as a "pseudonym" is cause for debate. To do so (IMO), is taxonomically incorrect. Neither does it provide for a common name, regardless of which continent you come from. That would further explain why the debate earlier drifted towards a spat over common name usage. You play around with taxonomy and all hell breaks loose - presumably for those who don't mind the scientific boundaries being "muddied". IMO, Licuala elegans doesn't even need to exist, and if it should happen to reappear one day, what then?

Im very happy to drop this now but why didnt you mention as you did in the PM to ME about Jeffs comments on RESPECTED growers and collectors, and as you mentioned Jeff Marcus ( IMO the MOST RESPECTED grower, collector theWORLD has to offer) still calls it ELEGANS.

[Ken Johnson]

Oh I though this thread was about Seforthia elegans the alexander palm. AKA solitare palm but not cardboard palm. And what happened to Psedudphoenix sergentii, subspecies saone var navosona?

Just sayin.

[John in Andalucia]

My attempt at humour was to highlight two Licuala species, both taxonomically legitimate. One is incredibly affordable due to it's proliferation, whilst the other is of "mythological status". The joke was intended to highlight my instinctive indifference, and my comment, "not right in so many ways" was an appreciation that many think differently. After all, I did not say it was, "wrong".

However, since I was PM'd and mildy "goaded" with the question, "Have you ever seen a Licuala elegans?" I will say this. To me, the idea of a Latin binomial being adopted and used as a "pseudonym" is cause for debate. To do so (IMO), is taxonomically incorrect. Neither does it provide for a common name, regardless of which continent you come from. That would further explain why the debate earlier drifted towards a spat over common name usage. You play around with taxonomy and all hell breaks loose - presumably for those who don't mind the scientific boundaries being "muddied". IMO, Licuala elegans doesn't even need to exist, and if it should happen to reappear one day, what then?

Im very happy to drop this now but why didnt you mention as you did in the PM to ME about Jeffs comments on RESPECTED growers and collectors, and as you mentioned Jeff Marcus ( IMO the MOST RESPECTED grower, collector theWORLD has to offer) still calls it ELEGANS.

Pete, there's no mystery about my comments here, or in my PM to you. When I said (quote): "TBH, Jeff Searle's comment was a little surprising." it was because I imagined that as a nurseryman he would be using the name "Licuala elegans". Hence, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the opposite. Jeff M. appears to have no qualms about using the name "elegans" (on his price list, at least), and yes, I said in my PM to you, "I respect his opinion above all others". That's mainly because I know Jeff M. to deal with personally. It doesn't imply that I agree with everything he says.

So now I feel I ought to defend Mr. Searle. I don't know Jeff personally, but he did provide me a with my second most cherished palm, a Chamaedorea angustisecta (via another forum member). My earlier comment was the one and only reference to him in my PM to you, and did not revolve around "respect" or "disrespect". Jeff's actual words in his post were: "any respected grower and collector will do their best to let go of the name". I should imagine it implies that consciences might conflict with "scientific knowledge" at the end of the working day. We should always fall back on the binomial nomenclature. It exists for the very reason this debate has gotten this far. It should be the focal point of debate. In which case, I wouldn't have to be here defending myself. Cheers!

[peachy]

I can not only spell elegans but pronounce it too. Come on, lets be honest, that other handle is just too much of a mouthful to remember let alone spell. You would need name tags a metre long.

Peachy

[John in Andalucia]

I can not only spell elegans but pronounce it too. Come on, lets be honest, that other handle is just too much of a mouthful to remember let alone spell. You would need name tags a metre long.

Peachy

Peachy, if in doubt, switch to "pet names".

[Dypsisdean]

Jeff M. appears to have no qualms about using the name "elegans" (on his price list, at least), and yes, I said in my PM to you, "I respect his opinion above all others". That's mainly because I know Jeff M. to deal with personally. It doesn't imply that I agree with everything he says.

I prefer not to speak for Jeff M. - but I am sure when I tell him about this thread, I will hear something like, "I just haven't gotten around to changing it." He is a stickler for accuracy, but has so much more to take care of than a price list. Or maybe there just isn't room for Licuala peltata var. 'sumawongii' in that particular column. That's even longer than Johannesteijsmannia altifrons

[peachy]

Jeff M. appears to have no qualms about using the name "elegans" (on his price list, at least), and yes, I said in my PM to you, "I respect his opinion above all others". That's mainly because I know Jeff M. to deal with personally. It doesn't imply that I agree with everything he says.

I prefer not to speak for Jeff M. - but I am sure when I tell him about this thread, I will hear something like, "I just haven't gotten around to changing it." He is a stickler for accuracy, but has so much more to take care of than a price list. Or maybe there just isn't room for Licuala peltata var. 'sumawongii' in that particular column. That's even longer than Johannesteijsmannia altifrons

My point edzachery Dean.

Peachy

[John in Andalucia]

Jeff M. appears to have no qualms about using the name "elegans" (on his price list, at least), and yes, I said in my PM to you, "I respect his opinion above all others". That's mainly because I know Jeff M. to deal with personally. It doesn't imply that I agree with everything he says.

I prefer not to speak for Jeff M. - but I am sure when I tell him about this thread, I will hear something like, "I just haven't gotten around to changing it." He is a stickler for accuracy, but has so much more to take care of than a price list. Or maybe there just isn't room for Licuala peltata var. 'sumawongii' in that particular column. That's even longer than Johannesteijsmannia altifrons

Thanks Dean, for highlighting what I wanted to stress. At no point did I say that Jeff M. "calls them Licuala elegans". Only that they are listed as such on numerous Floribunda price lists. I haven't even seen the latest price list. Even so, I'm relieved if that's the case.

[Walter John]

Junglemusic says L.elegans too.

just saying...