Copernicia Candy

[sonoranfans]

Andrew, I happened to be at Fairchild today and took a look at their large C. fallaensis. They all had some level of orange in the petiole, so I think it is safe to rule out that character (presence or absence of orange in the petiole) as being diagnostic. Here is a closeup of the petioles on one of them:

And here is a shot looking up into the crown:

Jody

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

Really sounds like splitting hairs here on the orange thing. It would seem a poor way to differentiate species I would think... Especially considering the cause of the orange is not understood(it could be culture).

[Mandrew968]

Andrew, I happened to be at Fairchild today and took a look at their large C. fallaensis. They all had some level of orange in the petiole, so I think it is safe to rule out that character (presence or absence of orange in the petiole) as being diagnostic. Here is a closeup of the petioles on one of them:

And here is a shot looking up into the crown:

Jody

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

Really sounds like splitting hairs here on the orange thing. It would seem a poor way to differentiate species I would think... Especially considering the cause of the orange is not understood(it could be culture).

Like I said, it's not anything I've read--just a discernable feature I have noticed(if you have orange on your gigas, then you don't have a gigas). If you are looking for a pure Copernicia baileyana, then the orange in the petiole is what I would look for. As far as Fallaensis, it may be "splitting hairs" but the best examples I have seen have no orange. Would you rather I keep my information to myself, Sonoranfans?

[sonoranfans]

Andrew, I happened to be at Fairchild today and took a look at their large C. fallaensis. They all had some level of orange in the petiole, so I think it is safe to rule out that character (presence or absence of orange in the petiole) as being diagnostic. Here is a closeup of the petioles on one of them:

And here is a shot looking up into the crown:

Jody

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

Really sounds like splitting hairs here on the orange thing. It would seem a poor way to differentiate species I would think... Especially considering the cause of the orange is not understood(it could be culture).

Like I said, it's not anything I've read--just a discernable feature I have noticed(if you have orange on your gigas, then you don't have a gigas). If you are looking for a pure Copernicia baileyana, then the orange in the petiole is what I would look for. As far as Fallaensis, it may be "splitting hairs" but the best examples I have seen have no orange. Would you rather I keep my information to myself, Sonoranfans?

No I wouldnt rather you keep your information to yourself. But when there isnt enough information it would be better to just admit it, rather than get into a pointless dispute over ill defined absolutes. I am sure the population size of observations was limited as Gigas and Fallaensis are quite rare. And the cultural effects would also have to be observed from that small sample to separate cultural effects from genetic traits. And pure examples of these species may be even more rare than we suspect. How does one verify species purity? Like Ken says, it would probably take DNA studies to be sure. Sharing observations is a good aspect about the palm talk discussion board. Collating those observations into "facts" is very tricky in the case of rare palms that readily hybridize. Jody has some observations that tend to be different than yours so I suspect that the orange trait is not very reliable. I trust scientists that sometimes admit they dont know, its a part of science. Scientist that are always right lose credibility because we all know that even Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics.

Edited September 22, 2011 by sonoranfans

[kylecawazafla]

What an interesting thread! Thank you for the link. I also went to a presentation once about Copernicia in Cuba and the guy theorized that perhaps deforestation in Cuba lead to the expansion of many previously isolated Copernicia ranges, which consequently lead to their recent hybridization boom. This could also explain why barely any two Copernicia look the same in Cuba.

[virtualpalm]

I used to much more "absolute" than I am now, and I, too, used to use what knowledge I had from my own experiences to formulate what I thought were valid explanations or diagnostic traits or what-have-you. But after spending quite a bit of time in the field in Central America studying plants (in my case cycads) in natural populations, I have come to realize that there is often an immense amount of variation in phenotypes (both vegetative and reproductive). And then after going through the process of formally describing several new species and developing dichotomous keys to certain groups, I have learned even more about the importance of diagnostic characteristics. So for those who try to learn about truly identifying traits that separate species within a given group, it is important to learn about the level of variation that might be expected within that group before formulating any hard-and-fast "rules" for identification. It is also important to remember (or realize in some cases) that just because someone knows a lot about palms doesn't mean that everything they say about a particular palm or identifying trait is true. One must be selective in what one accepts as fact. It is not easy to develop the ability to correctly identify species in any group of organisms; it takes a lot experience with the group in question. The goal is to be able to develop a "gestalt" or "search image" about a particular species that takes into account all of the various identifying traits into a whole "type" that you can recognize at once without having to study each trait individually. I learned this in graduate school many years ago. I have actually learned quite a bit about palms in this genus from this topic, and I hope to learn even more... so bring it on!

Jody

[Mandrew968]

The worst part of a long thread is getting quoted incorrectly. All I said is this is an observation. I also said corrolation does not prove causation.

[virtualpalm]

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

Hey, Andrew. I admit that there was not a lot of orange in the petioles of the three C. fallaensis at Fairchild... but there was some. There is also some in the petioles of the C. fallaensis that we have in the field, and I am confident that they are pure. I have personally seen some C. baileyana with little to no orange. In my experience, color is not often not a good trait to "hang your hat on," and the presence of relative amounts of a particular color is certainly not something that I would use to identify a palm (or cycad). You are, of course, welcome to use whatever traits you feel comfortable using. I am just saying that this is not a trait that I would use to tell the two species apart.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

Jody said this " I have actually learned quite a bit about palms in this genus from this topic, and I hope to learn even more... so bring it on!"

I would like to say that the best part of PalmTalk is when I learn something either about palms or any other subject and a lot of that goes on here.....thanks to all that participate.

Over the years I have been frustrated by putting many years into a Copernicia that was bought as on thing but that turned into another. Sometimes this means throwing a palm in the garbage because it is so ugly that it will never sell. Other time I have had some nice surprises.

If I was to buy some Copernicia now I would find many different looking palms, some with the same name! I would pick from them judging by what I thought they would look like when they got older. Some are fairly obvious and others can be a crap shoot.

[virtualpalm]

As most of you probably know, copernicias prefer full sun. But I thought I would just make a quick comment about C. ekmanii and its ability to grow quite well and remain quite blue in shady conditions.

Here is my C. ekmanii:

And here is what it looks like overhead:

Anyone else have a similar example of this or another species of Copernicia growing well in shade?

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

Here is some candy at my farm that was a victim of the camera just now. Over the years I have bought many Copernicia from vendors at The Palm Sale, all with species names. Very few turn into a species I can identify like this one.

[Jeff Searle]

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

Hey, Andrew. I admit that there was not a lot of orange in the petioles of the three C. fallaensis at Fairchild... but there was some. There is also some in the petioles of the C. fallaensis that we have in the field, and I am confident that they are pure. I have personally seen some C. baileyana with little to no orange. In my experience, color is not often not a good trait to "hang your hat on," and the presence of relative amounts of a particular color is certainly not something that I would use to identify a palm (or cycad). You are, of course, welcome to use whatever traits you feel comfortable using. I am just saying that this is not a trait that I would use to tell the two species apart.

Jody

Jody, I couldn't agree more. The color in a palm, or lack of it tells me very little in trying to sort out one species from another. This is in regards to the orange streaking on a petiole. In my travels to many countries and seeing many,many species, it's one thing you can count on...... species variation. I never will forget while in Madagascar one day after a long collecting trip, I was cleaning an understory species of Dypsis back at camp and couldn't beleive how much variation there was in the seed alone! From round to oblong.It just boggled me to no end. An openned mind is key!

[virtualpalm]

Exactly my point, Jeff. But, as you know, to get that open mind takes exposure to variation. Seeing lots of plants in cultivation is good; seeing plants in cultivation in different parts of the country or world is better. And to get exposure to the level of variation that begins to make one's mind really open up often takes travel to observe/study plants in habitat. That, for me, is what opened my eyes (and mind).

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

Here is a little rigida that is doing well for me. As you can see these palms catch leaf litter and efectivly mulch themselves. Rigida is one of the weirdest looking palms on earth.

[tank]

Here is a little rigida that is doing well for me. As you can see these palms catch leaf litter and efectivly mulch themselves. Rigida is one of the weirdest looking palms on earth.

One of my favorites!

Stick your hand down in there to fish out the leaf litter.....

Lends to the theory about them being meat eaters.

[Mandrew968]

Guys, as far as the petiole coloration is concerned, I will say that what I have observed is a trend and not 100% reliable. I have seen slight orange in the petiole of what has been labeled as a fallaensis(though it is not as defined as what I often see in baileyana). Also, Jody has mentioned on this thread, that he has seen Copernicia baileyana with little to no color in the petiole, and I have no reason to doubt his claim! This observation is one that from the rest of the experts on this forum, has not rang true, and that's life. I am lucky to have people(that care as much about palms as I do)on this website to share with.

I have also been taking many detailed photos(with the help of Tiffany) of the three Copernicias(gigas, fallaensis, baileyana)in question, in order to determine any other slight morphological differences that might be able to be brought to the table; I should have something to offer by this weekend.

Jeff is very right about species variation--one of the Fairchild Copernicias has a circular leaf instead of the spade shape!

[sonoranfans]

Guys, as far as the petiole coloration is concerned, I will say that what I have observed is a trend and not 100% reliable. I have seen slight orange in the petiole of what has been labeled as a fallaensis(though it is not as defined as what I often see in baileyana). Also, Jody has mentioned on this thread, that he has seen Copernicia baileyana with little to no color in the petiole, and I have no reason to doubt his claim! This observation is one that from the rest of the experts on this forum, has not rang true, and that's life. I am lucky to have people(that care as much about palms as I do)on this website to share with.

I have also been taking many detailed photos(with the help of Tiffany) of the three Copernicias(gigas, fallaensis, baileyana)in question, in order to determine any other slight morphological differences that might be able to be brought to the table; I should have something to offer by this weekend.

Jeff is very right about species variation--one of the Fairchild Copernicias has a circular leaf instead of the spade shape!

I would love to see the photos of those specimens andrew! You are so lucky to be able to just drive down the road a bit and view them!

[Mandrew968]

Guys, as far as the petiole coloration is concerned, I will say that what I have observed is a trend and not 100% reliable. I have seen slight orange in the petiole of what has been labeled as a fallaensis(though it is not as defined as what I often see in baileyana). Also, Jody has mentioned on this thread, that he has seen Copernicia baileyana with little to no color in the petiole, and I have no reason to doubt his claim! This observation is one that from the rest of the experts on this forum, has not rang true, and that's life. I am lucky to have people(that care as much about palms as I do)on this website to share with.

I have also been taking many detailed photos(with the help of Tiffany) of the three Copernicias(gigas, fallaensis, baileyana)in question, in order to determine any other slight morphological differences that might be able to be brought to the table; I should have something to offer by this weekend.

Jeff is very right about species variation--one of the Fairchild Copernicias has a circular leaf instead of the spade shape!

I would love to see the photos of those specimens andrew! You are so lucky to be able to just drive down the road a bit and view them!

Tom, in due time, I will "release the hounds" and show you some very nice stuff--and hopefully a new distinction we can all use to help better ID these enigmatic beauties!

[virtualpalm]

I look forward to seeing that as well, Andrew. I am keen to find some good, solid characters to use for ID'ing those three species.

Please take a look at the hastula (both adaxial and abaxial) when you are doing this. I definitely noticed some differences between C. fallaensis and C. baileyana in the small sample size in our field, and I would be interested to know if this holds true for palms growing in other locations and under different environmental conditions. Keep in mind also that vegetative traits can change with size/age, so it will be important to evaluate plants at different sizes/ages to see if the traits are valid throughout the life of the palms.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

And get some DNA too so we can know the real deal.

[Ken Johnson]

This color rivals any silver colored plant in the world and it is on a palm. Copernicia hospita. I did hit the auto correct button on the micrsoft office manager program but did not adjust the color. The camera is an HTC Evo.

[virtualpalm]

Very nice, Ken. Speaking of C. hospita, I thought some of you might like to see the three large ones that we have here at our nursery one last time before they go to their new home tomorrow.

"Hospita Candy" waiting to be loaded

Three "Hospita Candies" and one "Spissa Candy" loaded and nearly ready to go

"X Burretiana Candy" waiting to be loaded

Jody

Edited September 27, 2011 by virtualpalm

[Ken Johnson]

Here is a Copernicia macroglosa showing off.

[Jeff Searle]

Very nice, Ken. Speaking of C. hospita, I thought some of you might like to see the three large ones that we have here at our nursery one last time before they go to their new home tomorrow.

"Hospita Candy" waiting to be loaded

Three "Hospita Candies" and one "Spissa Candy" loaded and nearly ready to go

"X Burretiana Candy" waiting to be loaded

Jody

Jody,

Your X burretiana in the picture shows very long petioles. X burr. should have no noticable petiole, or very little. Similar to C.macrogloosa. Information stating that petioles are up to 30cm long. Do you know the history of the palm in the photo? Was this name given to you or Keith by a homeowner by chance? I have serious doubts this is a true X burretiana.

[Ken Johnson]

This picture is ghostly.

[Takil-Explorer]

Well for you people whom want to know more about Copernicia, and other Cuban palms, you should ask Raúl Verdecia Perez. He is the director of Jardin Botanico in Las Tunas and THE SPECIALIST on Cuban palms. I have his email so for those whom want to contact him let me know.

Regards,

Alexander

[virtualpalm]

Your X burretiana in the picture shows very long petioles. X burr. should have no noticable petiole, or very little. Similar to C.macrogloosa. Information stating that petioles are up to 30cm long. Do you know the history of the palm in the photo? Was this name given to you or Keith by a homeowner by chance? I have serious doubts this is a true X burretiana.

Hey, Jeff. It is my understanding that there can be quite a bit of morphological variation in this (or any) hybrid. The petioles are shorter than those of C. hospita but longer than C. macroglossa. I asked the Keith, and he said he bought it as that from a reputable grower several years ago, and that the ID was confirmed by the new owner's horticultural consultant, who just happens to be one of the world's leading authorities on Caribbean palms. I am no expert, but I trust the opinion of this individual.

Jody

[Jeff Searle]

Your X burretiana in the picture shows very long petioles. X burr. should have no noticable petiole, or very little. Similar to C.macrogloosa. Information stating that petioles are up to 30cm long. Do you know the history of the palm in the photo? Was this name given to you or Keith by a homeowner by chance? I have serious doubts this is a true X burretiana.

Hey, Jeff. It is my understanding that there can be quite a bit of morphological variation in this (or any) hybrid. The petioles are shorter than those of C. hospita but longer than C. macroglossa. I asked the Keith, and he said he bought it as that from a reputable grower several years ago, and that the ID was confirmed by the new owner's horticultural consultant, who just happens to be one of the world's leading authorities on Caribbean palms. I am no expert, but I trust the opinion of this individual.

Jody

Well, I'm no expert, I'm basing my observations on what's planted in FTBG, and from the pictures listed in the book. That would be,

Gentes Herbarum

Vol.9 Fasc.2 October 1963

A Revision of the genus Copernicia

2. West Indian Species

Still have my doubts about your palm.....

[Ken Johnson]

gigas can get a very conjested head of leaves before it develops trunk. This one is about ready to burst.

[Ken Johnson]

Here is one more at my farm. This baily type has been growing faster latly. It's loving the conditions right now.

[virtualpalm]

Here is one more at my farm. This baily type has been growing faster latly. It's loving the conditions right now.

Ken, that one looks like it might have some C. macroglossa in it.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

This picture speaks for itself.

I transplanted these two!

[Palmə häl′ik]

[virtualpalm]

VERY nice, Ken. How long ago did you transplant them?

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Some additional photos of the C. gigas that I posted previously -- moved to our nursery last week. Notice how the spear leaf and central fronds are supported for transit:

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

VERY nice, Ken. How long ago did you transplant them?

Jody

Jody, That was a long time ago (6 years?). They are in New Providence doing better than ever. Copernicia seem to love the Bahamas.

[virtualpalm]

I thought I would share this photo of another nice C. hospita that we just picked up yesterday.

Jody

[Davidl]

Here are a few that might be hybrids.

[Davidl]

This one is growing pretty fast in a pot

[Davidl]

[virtualpalm]

David, I think your first three have a solid C. baileyana look, and the last two look to be C. macroglossa.

Jody