Butyiagrus Offspring

[Tampa Scott]

For the second Winter now this hybrid (grown from Butiagrus seed) shows damage to the opening frond. Low of 29f with no frost this season so far, but the damage is showing again. Has this hybrid lost its cold hardiness?

[Kailua_Krish]

Wow, thats crazy! Less cold tolerance than any of its ancestors!

-Krishna

[Patrick]

I never realized that was a sign of cold damage...

[Mark Heath]

That is strange Scott. I have damage on my XButiagrus' F1 when small but not after they reach 15 gallon size, even to the newly emerging spear like yours. The only large XButiagrus that shows any damage is the plumose one that i have put pics up of.

[Alberto]

For the second Winter now this hybrid (grown from Butiagrus seed) shows damage to the opening frond. Low of 29f with no frost this season so far, but the damage is showing again. Has this hybrid lost its cold hardiness?

That´s very strange!

The queen palms that grows in Florida in must be from a very tropical provenance to make this Butiagrus (Butiagrus x s.romanz.?)so frost tender.

The native queen palm from south Brazil is hardier then this hybrid!!! stange!

[maesy]

Scott,I hope the one I have from you will be tougher.

I was thinking about planting mine out in spring.

Do you have other reports of a butyagrus from you that survived lower themperature?

A few days ago I cut an old leaf from the red based seedling that you also gave to me and from the butyagrus, and sticked it in the ground outside for three days. This three days we had a prolonged freeze down to -7°C(19°F). So the temperature never rose higher than 0°C(32°F) for the whole three days!

After that I brought them back inside and sticked it into a pot with moist soil. After one day I could see that the butyagrus leaf was totally fried, but the leaf from the red based seedling was like ontouched! I guess this one must be a pure butia.

Marcel

Edited December 25, 2010 by maesy

[Tampa Scott]

Scott,I hope the one I have from you will be tougher.

I was thinking about planting mine out in spring.

Do you have other reports of a butyagrus from you that survived lower themperature?

A few days ago I cut an old leaf from the red based seedling that you also gave to me and from the butyagrus, and sticked it in the ground outside for three days. This three days we had a prolonged freeze down to -7°C(19°F). So the temperature never rose higher than 0°C(32°F) for the whole three days!

After that I brought them back inside and sticked it into a pot with moist soil. After one day I could see that the butyagrus leaf was totally fried, but the leaf from the red based seedling was like ontouched! I guess this one must be a pure butia.

Marcel

Marcel, Nice to hear from you! The hybrid that I posted with the damaged new leaf was the palm that I germinated from a Butiagrus seed. The hybrid you have is a Butiagrus (ButiaxS.rom.) I do not think that a Butiagrus will withstand 3 whole days below freezing. I may be wrong and hope others will chime in if they have had success with 3 days below freezing. Yes the red base plant is Butia.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Tampa Scott

[Tampa Scott]

The palm itself...

[maesy]

I would not leave it unprotected for more than a day. maximum a light frost, maybe 28 or 29°F. If there is colder weather coming in, I would protect is with fleece and heating cable.

Marcel

[maesy]

Scott, can you post a picture of the mother butia?

[Tampa Scott]

That is strange Scott. I have damage on my XButiagrus' F1 when small but not after they reach 15 gallon size, even to the newly emerging spear like yours. The only large XButiagrus that shows any damage is the plumose one that i have put pics up of.

Mark, I also find it strange. I understood the damage after last years 12+ hrs below freezing on the newly opening spear. This time the freeze was only 4 hrs and no frost.

[Tampa Scott]

Marcel. Here is the mother Butia of your hybrid and Butia.

[_Keith]

Doesn't make sense. My Butiagrus, and my Butias showed no damage even after last year's nasty 15 year record lows. We saw 3 nights in a row right near the 20 degree mark, and more secondary frost and freezes than I can remember. No damage. The Butiagrus never stopped growing. I have to think it may be weakened already from some other environmental stress.

[DoomsDave]

I don't think that's cold damage.

I think the palm will grow through whatever the problem is.

Those hybrids are tough as nails.

I'd give it a dose of bug killer and some fungicide down the apical bud.

[Gtlevine]

I also do not think that is cold damage.

[Patrick]

But what I think we really ought to say kudos to is that Bizzie with the ten feet of trunk in the background

Kudos!

If your Bizzie's ok, then you're Mule is DEFINITELY ok.

I feel that the droopy spear is nothing to get overly concerned about. I can attest to the toughness of this palm. I have a Butiagrus that was created in Florida that has had a very rough go in CA, and is now great. In 2007, I even had the spear pull and it looked totally dead. it re-sprouted from the base and is back on track again (finally). They're TOUGH.

I think you'll be OK.

[freakypalmguy]

I'm in the "not cold damage" camp. From the pic it looks like a spear that has opened a bit prematurely, maybe due to wind, and the foliage is still imature. I've had a few do that and they green up with time.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I don't see any cold damage in that photo. Also, when there is cold damage to a palm, it's usually the fronds that are on a horizontal plane first. the spear is the last to be damaged. That coloration in the new leaf looks normal. I bet it grows out to a healthy leaf.

[Pez]

I don't see any cold damage in that photo. Also, when there is cold damage to a palm, it's usually the fronds that are on a horizontal plane first. the spear is the last to be damaged. That coloration in the new leaf looks normal. I bet it grows out to a healthy leaf.

I get damage to a newly opened frond (2-4 weeks depending on the palm) much earlier and at a less temperature drop than a horizontal (existing) frond. When a new spear opens up going into winter, it takes forever to harden off. Then 33F temps come along and wreck the translucent yellowish new frond. 80% of my damage so far this year is to new fronds.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I don't see any cold damage in that photo. Also, when there is cold damage to a palm, it's usually the fronds that are on a horizontal plane first. the spear is the last to be damaged. That coloration in the new leaf looks normal. I bet it grows out to a healthy leaf.

I get damage to a newly opened frond (2-4 weeks depending on the palm) much earlier and at a less temperature drop than a horizontal (existing) frond. When a new spear opens up going into winter, it takes forever to harden off. Then 33F temps come along and wreck the translucent yellowish new frond. 80% of my damage so far this year is to new fronds.

That's very unusual since horizontal leaves are subjected to the full extent of cold temperatures and especially damage from the formation of frost. That's why tying fronds up in a vertical position helps protect them from freeze damage.

[gyuseppe]

i have one small butyagrus, has resisted - 2 degrees celsius no damage from the cold

[Tampa Scott]

Thanks for the thoughts, but let me add that the damaged leaf from last winter did not grow out of it. This is the only hybrid that shows this damage,except for my variegated Butiagrus that damages very easy on all leaves.

[Mark Heath]

Looks like frost damage to me! I hope Jeff is correct w/ saying it will grow out of it!

[Mark Heath]

Looks like frost damage to me! I hope Jeff is correct w/ saying it will grow out of it!

[mjff]

I don't see any cold damage in that photo. Also, when there is cold damage to a palm, it's usually the fronds that are on a horizontal plane first. the spear is the last to be damaged. That coloration in the new leaf looks normal. I bet it grows out to a healthy leaf.

I get cold damage to Mules that size here, but not until we get into the mid-teens F, and it manifests as a spear pull with the older fronds undamaged. The spear then grows out when spring arrives and you wind up with a frond that is missing the portion that froze right above the bud.

I don't think that is cold damage, especially from such mild temperatures. That far up the new frond it should be hardened off enough to handle the same temps as the older fronds. The cold damage usually effects the first inch or so of the new frond right above the bud.

It appears to be a frond that opened too early or maybe a mineral deficiency. I see the same thing on some of my Butias when they are actively growing in the spring. I have to give them chelated iron to green them back up, but you may have a different deficiency issue in your soil.

[Nigel]

It appears to be a frond that opened too early or maybe a mineral deficiency. I see the same thing on some of my Butias when they are actively growing in the spring. I have to give them chelated iron to green them back up, but you may have a different deficiency issue in your soil.

I was thinking exactly this...... Butias in the UK do this in spring, cold ground, plant growing and roots cant get nutrient because the ground is cold. If the ground is cold and the plant is growing it could explain this. However, if it were this the spear would green up after a short while with heat.

[TimHopper]

I don't see any cold damage in that photo. Also, when there is cold damage to a palm, it's usually the fronds that are on a horizontal plane first. the spear is the last to be damaged. That coloration in the new leaf looks normal. I bet it grows out to a healthy leaf.

I get cold damage to Mules that size here, but not until we get into the mid-teens F, and it manifests as a spear pull with the older fronds undamaged. The spear then grows out when spring arrives and you wind up with a frond that is missing the portion that froze right above the bud.

I don't think that is cold damage, especially from such mild temperatures. That far up the new frond it should be hardened off enough to handle the same temps as the older fronds. The cold damage usually effects the first inch or so of the new frond right above the bud.

It appears to be a frond that opened too early or maybe a mineral deficiency. I see the same thing on some of my Butias when they are actively growing in the spring. I have to give them chelated iron to green them back up, but you may have a different deficiency issue in your soil.

I agree with Martin

[Eric in Orlando]

We used to have a 30ft X Butyagrus here at Leu Gardens that would show severe cold damage below about 29-30F. It would almost defoliage but by end of summer it had grown out of it. There is no record as to what its source was. It and 3 others were donated by the Orlando Parks Dept. back in the mid 1980s. We lost it in summer 1999, after a violent afternoon storm, the trunk snapped around 6ft up.

[Eric in Orlando]

The only photos I have of it are 2 slides taken in July 1990.

I took the best digital photos I could of the 2 sldes. You can see it was defoliated by the rcord 12/89 freeze but growing back. It is the big palm on the far right. Part of the trunk looks very thick, this is from sword fern growing on it and the fern was killed the previous winter and the fibrous matting is still on the trunk. In the background and to the left, the first palm is another X Butyagrus. The 2nd to the left is the trunked Jubaea that used to be in the collection here.

[Eric in Orlando]

In this 2nd digital photo of a slide, the "tender" X Butyagrus is more in the center. The other X Butyagrus is just to the right and the Jubaea to the left.