I have a number of Butias at my home and work. Look at these two seed clusters. The first seems abnormal to me and the second is typical. Has anyone else seen anything like this in Butias?

Abnormal: The tree that produced these has a massive trunk.




Normal (to me):



And here they are side by side:



The fruit tastes pretty good on both and all the seeds are viable.

I would hazzard a guess and say the seed on left is spheroid and seed on right of pic is elipsoid ?

The one on the left looks classic fruit arrangement for the BIG odorata from Uruguay, and the one on the right looks classic catarinensis from here.

Edited September 11, 201015 yr by Nigel

The arrangement of the seed on the left looks like how the Spicata cultivars of coconuts have their fruit arrangement. It's pretty interesting either way

I would hazzard a guess and say the seed on left is spheroid and seed on right of pic is elipsoid ?

The one on the left looks classic fruit arrangement for the BIG odorata from Uruguay, and the one on the right looks classic catarinensis from here.

Nigel,

I've have to go look at some seed up close. I don't think I've ever noticed the shape of the actual seed. Thanks for your observations.

That is unusual.....don't think I've seen anything quite like that. Gives me something else to look for around town. It will be interesting to see if Nigel's hunch is correct.

Dear Joseph

Nice visuals...and i was surprised to see fruits from such short butia's,i was of the opnion that they fruit only when they reach considerable height !

Love,

kris.

I would hazzard a guess and say the seed on left is spheroid and seed on right of pic is elipsoid ?

The one on the left looks classic fruit arrangement for the BIG odorata from Uruguay, and the one on the right looks classic catarinensis from here.

Nigel,

I went and checked seed shape and you were exactly right. The left cluster had spherical seed and the right one had the elipsoid seed. So now I know what I have: an odorata and a catarinensis. Now what does straight capitata look like?

Nigel,

I went and checked seed shape and you were exactly right. The left cluster had spherical seed and the right one had the elipsoid seed. So now I know what I have: an odorata and a catarinensis. Now what does straight capitata look like?

Joe, the Butia odorata in Uruguay is massive and extremely hardy. This was formerly Butia capitata until the recent review of the species by Noblick and Lorenzi.

The Butia catarinensis is native to the beach here in south Brasil but is almost certainly synonymous with Butia bonnetti, and apparently extremely hardy also.

Butia capitata is now officially the butia from central Brasil and almost certainly not widely in cultivation............. if at all !

Dear Joseph

Nice visuals...and i was surprised to see fruits from such short butia's,i was of the opnion that they fruit only when they reach considerable height !

Love,

kris.

Thanks Kris. Butias here in Augusta will bear seed when they are pretty small. I have B. odorata, paraguayensis, capitata, purpurescens, eriospatha, yatay, catarinensis and Butia x Jubaea. Some of these may just be varieties of capitata. The taxonomy of Butia seems to be up in the air; at least, I don't understand the breakdown of the genus. Maybe somebody can tell me what is a legitimate species and what is a varietal type of capitata.

I don't understand the breakdown of the genus. Maybe somebody can tell me what is a legitimate species and what is a varietal type of capitata.

Joe until recently there was

Butia capitata from central brasil, butia capitata from uruguay (completely different) and Butia capitata var odorata from the beach here ..

Now they have been reviewed into the 3 species.

To make things worse for you, your paraguayensis may not be a paraguayensis any more ,these have been reviewed as well and its even more complicated.

I don't understand the breakdown of the genus. Maybe somebody can tell me what is a legitimate species and what is a varietal type of capitata.

Joe until recently there was

Butia capitata from central brasil, butia capitata from uruguay (completely different) and Butia capitata var odorata from the beach here ..

Now they have been reviewed into the 3 species.

To make things worse for you, your paraguayensis may not be a paraguayensis any more ,these have been reviewed as well and its even more complicated.

To be accurate, I think that I'll just tell people that I have some Butias!!! Some are big, some small. That sounds like the safest plan to me. Thanks for the info, Nigel. I'll be relabeling some things.

Don't forget to make the jelly! (syrup, too!)

Jackie

Joe, interesting subject, glad you brought it up.

Nigel, great info, informative as always, thanks!

Jackie, great photo of the delicious jelly these palms make.

Jv

I think Joes photo demonstrated very well the botanical difference between those 2 Butias and the reason why the review of species was needed.

The problem is that it will be a LONG time if ever that these changes are accepted in the industry.

Nigel, Why do you state this, that it may not have been cultivated????

"Butia capitata is now officially the butia from central Brasil and almost certainly not widely in cultivation............. if at all !"

Thanks in advance... Jv

Nigel, Why do you state this, that it may not have been cultivated????

"Butia capitata is now officially the butia from central Brasil and almost certainly not widely in cultivation............. if at all !"

Thanks in advance... Jv

JV, when they conducted the review they had to split the 3 `capitatas`.

The first described Butia capitata came from central brasil so this one kept the name.

The Butia capitata from the beach here was thought to be bonnettii, they wanted to call it this but could not prove 100% it is one and the same so they gave it the new name catarinensis.

The southern `capitata` from uruguay and extreme south brasil they called odorata because this was its original name (capitata var odorata ) many years ago.

The two forms in cultivation are the latter two........

Nigel, understand all that. But I was wondering why the one from the central region isn't cultivated??? Is it because of it's origin, as in it's to difficult to obtain seeds due to the region it grows in, lack of plant populations or some other reasons (like governmental, politcal, etc. etc.).

Thanks, Jv

I smell a road trip to sort this out---- I have the 2nd edition Palmerias by Lorenzi is there a 3rd edition that has references for this ?

Most of my Syagrus references are dated --- Glassman, folks from South Africa and Palm Journal (California). I need to get up to speed with you Nigel

Jules what size is the seed? that may be a hint as well-- the fruit bundle reminds of the difference between S. romanzoffianum and the other species of Syagrus ( coronata --etc)

Best regards

Ed

I smell a road trip to sort this out---- I have the 2nd edition Palmerias by Lorenzi is there a 3rd edition that has references for this ?

Most of my Syagrus references are dated --- Glassman, folks from South Africa and Palm Journal (California). I need to get up to speed with you Nigel

Jules what size is the seed? that may be a hint as well-- the fruit bundle reminds of the difference between S. romanzoffianum and the other species of Syagrus ( coronata --etc)

Best regards

Ed

Lorenzi,s new book is out in both portuguese and english which explains all this.

JV I really dont know the answer to your question.

Don't forget to make the jelly! (syrup, too!)

DSC_6588.jpg

Jackie

Got a hold of this puppy this morning, how do I make Jelly?

 

The most beautiful seed cluster ever seen!!! FANTASTIC!