Red Canary Dates???

[Tomsky]

......also, in support of what Carlo has stated. I once germinated about 20 hybrid Phoenix seeds that had come from a palm growing at Parrot Jungle in Miami.  The mother tree appeared to be a cross between CIDP and P. robelenii. When the seeds germinated and they grew, no two of the plants looked alike. Most were single trunked, but one was clustering, and it's growing in my garden now. Some were more delicate looking like the mother plant, while others were course looking, some were attractive, and some were not and had long spines at the base of the petiole.

I think when planting hybrid Phoenix seeds, you never really know what they will turn out to be until they develope some adult characteristics and, if the seeds are gathered from a botanical garden where there are several different Phoenix species (or hybrids) you never know who the father was.

Dick

I have one of Dick's Parrot Jungle hybrids. It was offered at one of the Northern Cal chapter auctions many years ago. It looks exactly like a standard CIDP, with a robust trunk and long stiff leaves. The flowers, which appear every year, are just like the CIDP. It has never fruited, so I assume that it's a male tree.

Jack

[HKO2008]

Dear Vic and/or Maximus,

could you please tell me something or make an educated guess about the parent plants of the Porphyrocarpa's you are showing? in France they suspect their Porphyrocarpa's to be Phoenix Canariensis x Phoenix Sylvestris. At the Bamboo Farm & Coastal Gardens in north Florida, they have the experience that this hybrid is more cold hardy than either parent. The same conclusion is made in France, where they survived heavy frosts, where Canariensisses were fried.

A member of this board from Belgium has that same experience.

For this reason i am really interested in the parentage of either palm as shown by you guys.

Henri

Edited November 18, 2008 by HKO2008

[Kris]

Okay ! lets have an update for the month of Oct'08,of the Cidp Red Fruticas growing in our roof top garden..And only when it grows big in ground one will know its a male or female..?

Love,

Kris

[HKO2008]

Hey Kris,

thank you for the photo! That puppy is growing quite well. Where in India are you located, what climate do you have? I bet it is much better than the Netherlands anyway...

Do you have an idea about the parentage of your Phoenix Porphyrocarpa?

Greetings,

Henri

Okay ! lets have an update for the month of Oct'08,of the Cidp Red Fruticas growing in our roof top garden..And only when it grows big in ground one will know its a male or female..?

Love,

Kris

[M@ximus]

Dear Vic and/or Maximus,

could you please tell me something or make an educated guess about the parent plants of the Porphyrocarpa's you are showing? in France they suspect their Porphyrocarpa's to be Phoenix Canariensis x Phoenix Sylvestris. At the Bamboo Farm & Coastal Gardens in north Florida, they have the experience that this hybrid is more cold hardy than either parent. The same conclusion is made in France, where they survived heavy frosts, where Canariensisses were fried.

A member of this board from Belgium has that same experience.

For this reason i am really interested in the parentage of either palm as shown by you guys.

Henri

@ henri

In my experience with phoenix canariensis , I tried to germinate fresh seeds of both( red & jellow fruits)

The time of germination is the same, so the cold tollerance

On the seedling stage , I have found just a little difference : The Phoenix with red fruits start to divide leaves very quickly

I have 2/ 3 years old seedling of both and is the only difference i could see

Imo, if this palm is a hybrid, the parentage should be with a dacty

Best m@x

[iamjv]

Kris, your Red CIDP is looking great. Mine (from M@x) are probably a year or so behind yours,I hope to get some good growth out of them next year.

M@x, thanks for the input on the background of this palm. I'd agree that it looks like it mainly has dacty in the blood line. Looking forward to seeing how these young palms turn out.

ciao,

Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Max,

thank you very much for the information and the photo's!!! I do have a question though, you seem to be showing different phoenix species in your photo's. The last photo looks like sylvestris. The middle one looks more like a canariensis. Is it the same palm grove? Or do the first and the last photo represent the (possible) parents of the palm in the middle? If so, then a hybrid between canariensis and sylvestris seems possible. If not, then i wonder what the photo's are showing.

The red fruited one looks very beautifull. I think you have not tested them for cold hardiness, since you are in Rome?

The more rapid growth could be from hybrid vigour.

Henri

[M@ximus]

Dear Max,

thank you very much for the information and the photo's!!! I do have a question though, you seem to be showing different phoenix species in your photo's. The last photo looks like sylvestris. The middle one looks more like a canariensis. Is it the same palm grove? Or do the first and the last photo represent the (possible) parents of the palm in the middle? If so, then a hybrid between canariensis and sylvestris seems possible. If not, then i wonder what the photo's are showing.

The red fruited one looks very beautifull. I think you have not tested them for cold hardiness, since you are in Rome?

The more rapid growth could be from hybrid vigour.

Henri

Henri, the only Phoenix with red fruits , is the one in the center!! It is a centenary palm!!

Here in Rome we have had some very cold winter, and normally, temperature in winter drop to -7c easily

I have to say that we have also a long, hot , and dry season , very good for growing palms, but only cold hardy palms.

Our more "exotic" palm is Phoenix roebellini, that grow only under a canopy of another tree.

Naturally, with some exceptions, one for all Bismarkia nobilis

Others pics are just for show some more Phoenix for lovers of this specie

Im the left pic, taken at Rome bg, you can easily see, one phoenix with blue leaves.

this one seems to be a hybrid between canariensis and Sylvestris, but it is more easy that it is a hybrid between Canariensis x dacty

In the right pic , a four trunks Canariensis, surely made by humans (four seeds)

Best m@x

[HKO2008]

Dear Max,

thank you for the information! I very much like the photo's you posted. It seems that it is Likely that Canariensis is the mother, looking at the appearance. Are there also other phoenix species growing near that red fruiting Phoenix? Sylvestris or other Phoenixes, besides canariensis and dactylifera's? I am very interested in this Hybrid.

The palms on the right photo don't seem to be Canariensis, at least not pure Canariensis. The leaves and the trunk look more like Sylvestris.

You are lucky you can grow so many palm species.

Were you able to collect seed of tree? This hybrid would be something people want to grow.

Henri

Edited November 19, 2008 by HKO2008

[buffy]

I'm VERY interested in obtaining one of these Phoenix hybrids for their purported cold tolerance and possible red fruit. Who do I need to talk to? I have no idea why the hybrid of canariensis and dactylifera would be more cold tolerant than either, but hybrids are funny like that.

Edited November 19, 2008 by buffy

[HKO2008]

Dear Buffy,

i have no idea about Canariensis x Dactylifera.

In France they suspect their Porphyrocarpa's (which means red fruit) to be Phoenix Canariensis x Phoenix Sylvestris. At the Bamboo Farm & Coastal Gardens in north Florida, they have the experience that this hybrid (Canariensis x Sylvestris) is more cold hardy than either parent. The same conclusion is made in France, where they survived heavy frosts, where Canariensisses were fried. A member of this board from Belgium has that same experience.

So in France and Belgium they are called Phoenix Porphyrocarpa and in the US they are called Phoenix Canariensis x Sylvestris. You could look for the latter, as the name Porphyrocarpa in the US could also mean another hybrid of Phoenix with red fruit.

If you want the Porphyrocarpa from France, your only option is to buy one in France.

The Hybrid from Max from Italia could be Phoenix Canariensis x Sylvestris as well, but could also be Phoenix Canariensis x Dactylifera, since the palmtrees that surround the mother are Dactylifera. That should be great as well, since a phoenix hybrid seems to be more cold hardy than any of the parents, also due to hybrid vigour. And since Dactylifera in general is more cold hardy; Phoenix Canariensis x Dactylifera could even be more cold hardy than Canariensis x Sylvestris, although i suspect the margin to be small.

Only time will tell.

Can you still keep count?

Henri

[manuvericel]

Dear all,

Henri is absolulty right in saying that in France, we suspect the Porphyrocarpa's (which means red fruit) to be Phoenix Canariensis x Phoenix Sylvestris.

All the story about their superior cold hardiness began after the cold winter of 1985. In Hyères, Violette Decugis, a well known palm nursery runner observed that some Phoenix supposed until then canariensis, started re-growing their crown much earlier and faster than others.

In fact all those palms where the famous hybrid wih red fruits and blue color on the leaf base.

Note that the real difference is not really the leaf hardiness because the palms where also fried but the re-growing capacity.

MANU

[manuvericel]

Here is a picture of a red fruit Phoenix planting in the garden of Daniel Jacquemin in his memory (he died last years) .

Daniel wrote some very interesting palm books including rich historical palm introducing.

Edited November 19, 2008 by manuvericel

[HKO2008]

Dear Manu,

thanks for the more detailed information! Great to have somebody from France telling us more about the 'french' Porphyrocarpa.

Palmaris states that the cold hardiness is about 1 to 2 degrees better than Canariensis. I.E., this means that foliage damage on Canariensis should start 1 or 2 degrees earlier than on Porphyrocarpa. Is this your observation also Manu?

Somebody in Belgium had all his canariensisses fried at minus 6 degrees celcius. They were dead. The Porphyrocarpa had no damage whatsoever.

Foliage hardiness could be improved by using 'Vital'. A foliar spray with spores and other goodies that strenghtens the cells, so they are more hardy against freezing (cells will not be damaged that quickly) and fungus.

If you have more information or addresses, i would be very interested. This hybrid is just starting to get attention in The Netherlands and Belgium.

Henri

Edited November 19, 2008 by HKO2008

[HKO2008]

Also a very nice photo!

Good to remember a palm expert by planting a palm tree.

Henri

[manuvericel]

Henri,

The red fruit form is not that leaf hardy, even in dry med. climate, young plants will defoliate at -6°C.

But I think the hybrid vigor allows better recovering.

Anyway, red fruit palms are often located among regular canariensis so, a femelle red fruit Phoenix (pretend a f1 cross)

is likely to be polinated with canariensis males.

That means when we buy a smal palm in any nursery that they are (canariensisXsylvestris)Xcanariensis

MANU

[iamjv]

Buffy,

I received a couple of these red fruit phx from M@x, I'll gladly share one with you. We can work out the logistics of getting it to you... Jv

[iamjv]

Manu,

Thanks for the nice photograph of the red fruit canary! By the way are those jubaea's in the background??? They are looking very healthy. Jv

[Kris]

Dear Friends

Now iam in bit confuessed stage.. Will a CIDP 'Red Fruticas' Have any structural or visual difference in its leaf arrangement,leaf leaf frond length,trunk size,dimond design scars as seen in pure MaturedCIDP specimen ?

Since the zone that i live is hot tropical through out the year.so i need not worry about the cold hardiness,etc...

So my question is does Red fruticas differ from saplings comming from different regions..say U.S.A,France,Italy,Netherlands & Belgium.? Since i was very impressed with Justin Ingram's Red Cidp stills..Now will my red fruticas grow-up to look like Justin's Red CIDP ?

Since i do not have enough space to conduct research work with all the hybrids,since some space have already beeing alloted for the Corypha's and just 2 spots are avaliable for CIDP,and i want the best in that place.

my requirement is CIDP pure STD form and one RED Fruting CIDP.If the one that iam growing will not grow massive as a pure form,then i have second thoughts about it !

So need expert advise from all phoenix fans & experts ! Kindly help me out of this dilama.and i must say i have phoenix sylversteris_Female,Phoenix Dactylifera_Male.and if all things goes as on schedule in that grove i will be placing the red & std CIDP on both sides..And by the way P.Theo sent to me by M@x will also be squeezed in wherever place that will be avaliable there.and if some peculier hybrids could form,then they are welcome !

Dear M@x,can you give us a description as to visually how does the parent CIDP which is putting out red fruits looks like ? Does it look like a Pure CIDP during no fruting season,or does it look like a date palm or P.Sylversteris from long distance when seen without fruits on it ?

Need you expertese on my doubt_Please !

thanks & love,

Kris

[HKO2008]

Dear Manu and others,

i know that Violette Decugis is a very knowledgable palm lover. However, i do find myself asking if it is really Canariensis x Sylvestris and not Canariensis x Dactylifera. Max from Rome has red fruit and they are a probable cross between Canariensis x Dactylifera, since the red fruiting Canariensis is surrounded by Dactylifera. Also, Dactylifera is far more widely planted in Southern France than Sylvestris. If you look at Phoenix Dactylifera var. 'Zahidi', they give red fruit, whereas a Sylvestris doesn't give red fruit. Also, Dactylifera is more cold hardy than Sylvestris.

This combination of information has made me wondering if the French Porphyrocarpa is really Canariensis x Sylvestris and not Canariensis x Dactylifera.

Anyone?

Kris... the US red fruticas, Canariensis x Sylvestris, has even got a more robust trunk than Canariensis. So no worries It will become massive. Maybe Manu could comment on the French Prophyrocarpa's? I have never seen one in real person. I hope to do that one day in my own garden...

Henri

[HKO2008]

To add to the discussion,

some photo's of fruit colour:

Phoenix Dactylifera var. 'Zahidi': Phoenix Dactylifera var. Zahidi

Phoenix Sylvestris: Phoenix Sylvestris

Phoenix Dactylifera: Phoenix Dactylifera

Phoenix Dactylifera 2: Phoenix Dactylifera 2

Phoenix Canariensis has yellow fruit, no matter what. Same goes for Phoenix Sylvestris. I suspect a cross of Canariensis x Sylvestris to not have red fruit. A cross between Canariensis x Dactylifera is therefore more likely. I am not sure however...

More details:

- red fruited Canariensisses on the Canaries are suspected to be a hybrid between Canariensis and Dactylifera's

- I heard from a palm nursery man in Belgium that nurseries in Spain have the same experience with Canariensis x Dactylifera's as the French with

Prophyrocarpa; they are more hardy

- Some varieties of Dactylifera produce red fruit, like var. Zahidi

Henri

Edited November 20, 2008 by HKO2008

[manuvericel]

Manu,

Thanks for the nice photograph of the red fruit canary! By the way are those jubaea's in the background??? They are looking very healthy. Jv

Hello Jv,

You are correct, Daniel Jacquemin planted around 30 Jubaea in a way that the trunks look like romans collumns as the palms get older.

By the way, he planted this lovely cross years ago

[manuvericel]

Dear Manu and others,

i know that Violette Decugis is a very knowledgable palm lover. However, i do find myself asking if it is really Canariensis x Sylvestris and not Canariensis x Dactylifera

Henri

I can't speak for Violette but I would not be so surprised if this palm had no sylvestris but dacty blood.

I have seen at Violette's nursery a batch of 4 years old palms that had been fried by a brief low of -6/-7°C

It is just an observation, pretend that the cross is dactyXcana: maybe the hardiness depends on the dacty's father variety...

MANU

[HKO2008]

Dear Manu,

thank you for your information!!! It seems we are closing in on this hybrid.

I think the variety of Dactylifera does have an influence. I can imagine that variety Medjool high up from the Atlas Mountains would produce a more cold hardy hybrid than Dactylifera from the southern part of the Sahara.

So would you recommend the pophyrocarpa over the standard Canariensis for my country? Or am i really twisting your arm by asking this.

Henri

I can't speak for Violette but I would not be so surprised if this palm had no sylvestris but dacty blood.

I have seen at Violette's nursery a batch of 4 years old palms that had been fried by a brief low of -6/-7°C

It is just an observation, pretend that the cross is dactyXcana: maybe the hardiness depends on the dacty's father variety...

MANU

[iamjv]

Manu, thanks for the additional pics... impressive line of jubs (as well as the hybrid). Those jubs along with the canarensis that has been planted are going to be a sight to see in the future. Hopefully this garden is visible from a nearby road. Looks like wonderful country side. Jv

[manuvericel]

Jv,

Yes, the palms can be seen from the road but it is lost amoung wineyards so, you cannot find the garden if you have never been before.

Henri,

I think the porphyrocarpa is one of the best Phoenix to try in sheltered places of Netherlands. Also a good bet to me would be P.theophrastii var. golköy in a dry location (south wall or even under overhang)

MANU

[HKO2008]

Dear Manu,

thank you for your answer. I will try Porphyrocarpa in my climate. I will use 'Vital' for more leaf hardiness.

P.theophrastii var. golköy doesn't do that well in our wet climate. The same belgian guy had P. theophrastii var. golköy and porphyrocarpa together. P.theophrastii var. golköy was fried, like Canariensis. Porphyrocarpa was untouched. Maybe with P.theophrastii var. golköy it is better to plant a somewhat bigger specimen. That would make a difference i guess, but still the difference in hardiness when young makes me believe it is not as hardy as some people think it is. Or time may prove me wrong. I do hope so.

Do you have P.theophrastii var. golköy in your garden?

Henri

[plantapalm]

I have 1 of these red CIDP growing in my town. The seeds are identical to the other CIDP gold/yellow seeds. There is a row of 30 or more and this is the only red fruit palm. What do you think it may be crossed with? The city planted all of these at the same time guessing that they purchased them all from the same dealer they are all basically the same size. Why do you think that there would only be 1 with red fruit?

[HKO2008]

Dear Michel,

very interesting! Are there any other phoenixes nearby, apart from Canariensis? Dactylifera maybe? Or Sylvestris? Any other phoenix in a private garden nearby???

[manuvericel]

Dear Henri,

I have never planted a Phoenix outside in my garden, I will because I have some in pots that wil get to large one day but until now, I have found more suited palms to my cold climate.

Some pics of the garden:

http://gardenbreizh.org/photos/manuvericel/album-10815.html

Cheers

MANU

[HKO2008]

Dear Manu,

thanks for the link to photo's of your garden! Beautifull!!!

So you are saying, your Washingtonia is hardy in your climate? Wow. I know of some Washintonia trials in the Netherlands. I happen to conduct one of them. I chose Robusta however, because of them better suited for a wet climate. I am not sure you have pure Filifera, but i might be mistaken.

Henri

[Kris]

Dear Michael & Manu

thanks for all the visuals of those lovely palms...and also for making this thread active once again..since i was growing tired of bumping such threads single handedly !

And more information & stills of the Red Cidp is always welcome here...

lots of love,

Kris

[plantapalm]

Dear Michel,

very interesting! Are there any other phoenixes nearby, apart from Canariensis? Dactylifera maybe? Or Sylvestris? Any other phoenix in a private garden nearby???

Henri,

They are planted in a line down the middle of the street. 95% are CIDP, with a random Phoenix dactylifera planted, but the CIDP is not close to them It is in a row of just CIDP. Here are a few pics of the row. If you look at 2nd pic you can see a dactylifera a few blocks down.

[HKO2008]

Michael,

very curious. I see some colour variation in your seeds as well. That could suggest being pollinated by various sources and one of them could be the Dactylifera. It is the only possible explanation i can think of. Carlo from the Canary Islands is the expert on Phoenix Canariensis and the said that every red fruiting Canariensis has hybrid fruit. Maybe the flowering time of that canariensis just happened to coincide with the flowering time of the Dactylifera as well? Or maybe he produces pollen of the opposite sex, where the others don't? Or a very buzy bee only visited this specimen of Canariensis?

Very strange indeed, but the red seeds are hybrids. And i suspect hybrids from Canariensis and Dactylifera.

Many thanks for the photo's and information. This is getting more interesting by the day. Maybe another proof of the red fruiting Phoenixes to be Canariensis x Dactylifera.

Henri

Edited November 20, 2008 by HKO2008

[M@ximus]

Dear M@x,can you give us a description as to visually how does the parent CIDP which is putting out red fruits looks like ? Does it look like a Pure CIDP during no fruting season,or does it look like a date palm or P.Sylversteris from long distance when seen without fruits on it ?

thanks & love,

Kris

Kris , without fruits, It's almost impossible , at least for me, distinguish a jellow fruits from a red fruits CIDP!!

I could just say, that all the red fruits canariensis that are in Rome are Huge!!, But probably because they are all very old!!!

My impression is that this palm, when adult, is tall 1/2 mt more, than a traditional jellow Canariensis .As sayd, Just an impression !!

For sure , at the beginning of the passed century, was frequently used in the Rome Gardens!!!

Best M@x

[Vic]

Dear Vic and/or Maximus,

could you please tell me something or make an educated guess about the parent plants of the Porphyrocarpa's you are showing? in France they suspect their Porphyrocarpa's to be Phoenix Canariensis x Phoenix Sylvestris. At the Bamboo Farm & Coastal Gardens in north Florida, they have the experience that this hybrid is more cold hardy than either parent. The same conclusion is made in France, where they survived heavy frosts, where Canariensisses were fried.

A member of this board from Belgium has that same experience.

For this reason i am really interested in the parentage of either palm as shown by you guys.

Henri

Henri, in my opinion the cross is with dactylifera. My reasoning behind this is that where the seeds were collected there were only CIDP and dacty. I have since seen the red fruited CIDP in Valencia/Spain and have found this also to be the case. My seedling is 3 years and fully pinnate, the leaves are much stiffer that pure CIDP of the same age.

[Kris]

Dear M@x,can you give us a description as to visually how does the parent CIDP which is putting out red fruits looks like ? Does it look like a Pure CIDP during no fruting season,or does it look like a date palm or P.Sylversteris from long distance when seen without fruits on it ?

thanks & love,

Kris

Kris , without fruits, It's almost impossible , at least for me, distinguish a yellow fruits from a red fruits CIDP!!

I could just say, that all the red fruits canariensis that are in Rome are Huge!!, But probably because they are all very old!!!

My impression is that this palm, when adult, is tall 1/2 mt more, than a traditional yellow Canariensis .As said, Just an impression !!

For sure , at the beginning of the passed century, was frequently used in the Rome Gardens!!!

Best M@x

Dear Brother

Thanks for that important information,since i love the fat & stout trunking CIDP's..from now i will have a peaceful sleep without any confusion..

Lots of love,

Kris

[chocapik]

Dear all,

Nearby there is a CIDP and a porphyrocarpa. I need to remember the exact location before I can go and take some pictures of them. They look like tweans except for the fruits color.

I must have seen them about 2 yrs ago, we just had a cold snap here, CIDP leaves had turned yellow, whereas porphyrocarpa was in pretty good shape. So, from this single example (that I wouldn't not consider as a general rule!), it seems that cold hardiness is not only in plant capability of fast regrowing (by the way, personal "hi" to Manu, nice to see u on this forum ), but also in its capability in sustaining lower temp.

As for Kris question, either CIDP or porphyrocarpa has no chance of ending up frozen in India, you don't have to worry.

From what I have read so far, I believed no doubt existed about porphyrocarpa being more cold tolerant than CIDP (just a few °C but it can make a difference when you're "on the edge") ?

Henry, if you want to give a shot to Washi, you'd better try a fillifera since it's much more cold tolerant than robusta. Even in Toulouse (SW France), robustas never last very long outside.

Chocapik

[iamjv]

Chocapik,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input! Always good to hear of other examples of the hardiness factor of these red canary's. I believe there must be a mix of dacty in them maybe from one particular cultivar that gives them this added hardiness. Again, welcome. Jv

[chocapik]

Thanks Jv for your warm welcome

I've read posts for a while but that's my first lines on palmtalk.

Happy planting to you all