Ceroxylon parvifrons...

[Jonathan]

Hiya palmiacs,

my Ceroxylon parvifrons seeds have finally arrived after a short stay in Sydney with the lurverly folks at AQIS.

Now because these are very hard to get and I've wanted them for a long, long time, I would like to beg, borrow and steal all the accumulated information available on this species, so I can: A. germinate them successfully and B. keep them alive.

So far, from what I've read, my plan is to soak them in changes of water for 3 days then keep them at around 20C till germination. I'm thinking a 50/50 peat perlite mix to sow the seed into, but havn't decided whether to use pots or the bag method, but am leaning towards pots in bags which has worked very well for me with Rhopalostylis species. Any opinions?

It sounds like germination is not the main issue with Ceroxylon (other than the time factor), but keeping the seedlings alive can be very tricky...and this is where I would really like to hear from anyone who has had a lot of success (or failure) with any of the species.

I am aware of previous threads on this genus, but I can't recall anyone mentioning potting media, suitable size for first pot, shade and water requirements, etc. and it might make all the difference. My gut feeling is to treat them like Rhopies, but I cant seem to find out much about their early development.

Thanks in advance,

Jonathan

[Kostas]

Hi Jonathan!

I can understand your enthusiasm fully as Ceroxylons rock and are of the best palms I dont have any experience with C. parvifrons as,to tell you the truth,is one of the species i find the least attractive to my eyes due to the very formal leaf setting but i have raised C. amazonicum from seed successfully(to point as i lost them 3 years latter due to bad horticultural practices from my part,which i will tell them to you to not do them... )getting more than 90% germination(the 11nth seed did not germinate and i still have it now,many years latter and still hope it may germinate someday as it hasnt rotted and seems perfectly good I germinated them in sealed tupperware container filled with perlite,keeping them in my closet at tempratures of 18-20C at most.They are not at all succeptible to rotting as seeds and a little rinsing under the tap along with a little rubbing in your hands,takes care of any developing fungus.They germinated very fast and as soon as i got some germinators,i replaced the colored tupperware lid with microwave resistant film covering and placed them in low ambient lighting in my room.I planted some as soon as they had 3cm of root while others when their first leaf was half out already.I had good experince in both cases and didnt lost any to the move.If you decide to leave them till the formation of the first leaf however,you need lots of patience to dig them up carefully as they get a very branched central root till then and you must be carefull not to damage it of course! I planted them in rich soil and have always kept them moist,not letting them dry out at all and didnt had any problem with that and lost none to rot at that stage.They seem to grow slowly but steadily and were quite robust in my opinion.I grew mine in shade in my greenhouse and never had problems with the high 40sC to 50sC(i dont suggest that for C. parvifrons of course being much more montain than C. amazonicum that it got during summer in there Also -3C wasnt a problem either(yours can take more for sure! ).What i lost mine to was rotten soil...I kept them dripping wet for 3 years in the same pots and so their soil had started rotting...After months in that rotting soil,they succumbed to rot,all 8 of them So Ceroxylons do take water perfectly well and love it and do not rot by it but dont keep them dripping wet for years in the same pots as the soil rots...So,i would suggest smaller pots so as to have more frequent moves and their soil not have the chance to rot.They dont show any distress from too much water,believe me,so they dont warn you you are overwatering...As in fact you arent,they love it that way,but the soil is the problem...

Just my experience with C. amazonicum till now...I hope it helps you grow your C. parvifrons to maturity well Do adapt it though according to C. parvifrons habitat as it certainly differs than that of C. amazonicum,a lowland species...

[mppalms]

Hi, Jonathan.

Congrats! The only thing I can contribute is that Ceroxylon vogelianum is very touchy as a seedling. I've lost about half of mine. I have heard that you want to keep them a bit under-potted, since they do not have an extensive root system for their size. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Jason

[richnorm]

I have grown small numbers of most species with few losses but am no expert. I do follow the advice given to me to add some home-made compost to the mix as they seem to like something in the soil flora. Other than that I leave them outside under tree fern canopy in a cool frost free spot and place in-ground at an early age. They certainly seem to need air flow. Initial growth is slow but they start moving after a few years.

cheers

Richard

[Jonathan]

Thanks guys - great info.

Kostas, you're a good man - it must have taken ages to write that up, and very useful comments too.

I think I killed nearly all my Phoenix roebelinii's the same way. It seems to be nearly impossible to bring them back once they start to decline from anaerobic conditions - I tried potting them into smaller pots in fresh medium, but they kept dying. I assume that Phytophora or something similar is the ultimate killer. Thats not a mistake I want to make with these ones.

Temperature shouldn't be too much of a problem here - almost never gets below 0C and rarely above 35. Lack of water will always be an issue - but I'm working on that one.

Jason - your advice about pot size fits in nicely with Kostas' experience - I think I'm getting the picture!

Richard - thats interesting about soil flora - the same thing is recomended for a lot of Australian native plants, particularly Banksia's and other Proteacea.

Good airflow makes sense too, given their habitat. Do you mind me asking where the tip about soil flora came from? Someone out there obviously knows their Ceroxylons pretty well.

Did anyone else buy any seeds of this species from RPS this time round? It would be good to swap notes later.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[mppalms]

Did anyone else buy any seeds of this species from RPS this time round? It would be good to swap notes later.

I missed this wave of them, but Toby mentioned they would have more at some point relatively soon. I hope to pick some up soon. I think this one will do well in northern CA.

Jason

[Bennz]

I've noticed that there seems to be variation between seedlots with Ceroxylon, I've had C. ventricosum grow very easily, the next seedlot quite difficult.

I got seeds from NZPalm Soc seedbank for years. Of these, about 3 are left alive. I sowed them in composted pine bark-based media. The survivors are ones which I repotted in sandy loam soil, they immediately began to improve. Now I use a media containing at least 50% soil, and some C. quindiuense are doing well in 100% soil. Since using soil-based media, loses are very low.

I also now use only organic fertilisers, based on fresh cow manure and seaweed. Heaps of soil-friendly microbes in there.

Rats are a different story. Still brings tears to me eyes and the urge to smash something when I think of how I felt finding about 1000 Ceroxylon seedlings devoured in one night of carnage.

[Bennz]

Forgto to mention I think these palms need no protection in our climates except light shade. I found those in GH inferior to those under light shade, so they do prefer cool. Denser shade (like rainforest floor) makes them slower, and seem more important than temperature. My experiments, they can go into full sun at about 8leaf stage without significant burning (and I live in one of the country's highest melanoma death rate areas, serious UV), and into half-day sun at 2leaf stage with some yellowing and light burning of margins. My impression is that they seem to do better with more light than what is commonly believed.

If I get any more seed, I think I will treat them like bangalows, ie minimal care.

[Jonathan]

Thanks Ben,

I think our temperatures and UV are very similar (we are probably a bit drier), so I'm very interested in your experience.

Would you recommend incorporating a bit of compost or soil into the germination medium? Or wait until the first pot stage?

1000 seedlings eaten by rats?!?! Ouch.....thats shocking, particularly such a rare species. Smash things, cry, smash more things, cry some more....

So based on everyones comments so far: Sow in well drained media at about 20C; Pot up into smallish pots with some organic matter; grow on in light shade till pinnate leaves appear; keep moist, but not wet; harden to full sun for faster growth? Avoid Rats!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Walter John]

caught a rat here the other night, he chewed off every C.metallica leaf.

Good luck on the Ceroxylons Jon, they wouldn't last 5 minutes here.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Hi Jon

I stumbled across this photo on flicker ,a great growth rate in a climate similar to ours !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjuania/23766...57604326279997/

[nomolos]

Jon I'm growing a c.quindinese and alpinium in the ground, seem to be going ok. They tend to like cool misty conditions.

PS I'll call you soon, sorry I have been flat out.

[Darold Petty]

hello to all, the flickr photo is my palm! I have been lurking about this thread, and will try to put up a current photo tomorrow.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

hello to all, the flickr photo is my palm! I have been lurking about this thread, and will try to put up a current photo tomorrow.

Thats a fantastic garden you have there Darold . how long has it been established for ?

Troy

[Jonathan]

Aaha! Darold....I was hoping you might say hello.

I've been admiring pics of your parvifrons, it comes up on every Google search. The photo from Troy's post is a beauty.

Is it really only 15 years old?

Very impressive indeed. Look foward to seeing some updated shots tomorrow.

There was a very interesing article in the last IPS Palms mag about Ceroxylon in Ecuador, which had a little section on parvifrons. It describes the growth rate as slow during establishment, fast in sub-aldult phase then slowing down a lot when flowering starts at 5-6m (16-20') height. Then slowly up to 12-15m (40-50').

So Darolds palm should be flowering by now (obviously climate plays a role in growth rates and flowering though...) - any luck Darold?

Cheers,

Jonathan

[JasonD]

So pleased to hear that those seeds are finding a good home! I'm hopeful I can get a batch of the next round of distribution. Ceroxylon parvifrons is an ideal moderate-size palm for domestic gardens in mild, humid, cool-summer areas. The beauty of this species is the sum of the deep green of the leathery leaves -- contrasted on the abaxial surfaces and petioles with a silvery-coppery color -- plus the unblemished foliage, and the tall, smooth, clean ringed trunk. It's an extraordinary sight, especially in a climate where so many palms appear tired, stunted, thorny, hairy, brown-tipped, nutrient-deficient, chill-blained...

I've used a peat/perlite/sand 1:1:1 mix for most of the many Ceroxylons I've sprouted in a cool-intermediate (10C - 30C), moist greenhouse at the San Francisco Botanical Garden. I think the high humidity and frequent overhead watering have lessened problems with spider mites. Once the initial leaf emerges (3-12 months), very carefully separate out the seedlings from the seedpot and plant each into a quick-draining soil mix in a small container. Our mix has sand, pumice, perlite, peat, fine bark and probably a bit of well-rotted manure compost. They seem to tolerate the mild greenhouse conditions for a couple of years, at least, but they do best in the unheated lath house, where the temperature range is 3C - 30C. They also endure underpotting rather well. Just today I saw a Ceroxylon interruptum at the nursery in a 5-gallon container with 4-5 foot leaves, looking rather healthy but just beginning to show stunting of the newest growth. It's probably 10-years old and it REALLY needs to get planted.

Darold Petty's had luck placing two-leaf seedlings directly in the ground (while protecting from snails, slugs, dogs, rodents, etc.). Bright conditions suit them almost as well as shade, and will produce faster, denser growth. The rosette phase feels as slow and tedious as the trunking growth feels rapid. The C. quindiuense at the San Francisco Botanical Garden were planted in the early or mid-1980s, and they didn't show trunk until about 1999. It's incredible how they skyrocket once they show that first ring of trunk: Now those plants are at least 12m tall overall, and each new year they put on a meter or two of height. Growing few, but lengthy, roots, they are difficult to transplant, though not impossible. Rooting is like Sabal and Rhopalostylis -- a saxophone-shaped rhizome-like feature develops and the plant migrates as much as ~60cm from where it is planted to where it ultimately raises its trunk. Moist, well-drained soil is best. They are not nearly so drought-tolerant as Parajubaea. Wind is not a problem for C. parvifrons; C. quindiuense gets a bit ragged in our chronic ocean winds. Rodents (or something) also occasionally eat leaves on the C. vogelianum at the Northern California Chapter of the IPS's Oakland Lakeside Palmetum. They open deformed, looking as if someone had taken giant scissors to the leaf.

Darold is the true expert on growing C. parvifrons. He's got the tall blooming specimen whose picture I posted to Flickr, plus a bunch of small rosette-phase plants next to it. I look forward to his post.

[JasonD]

Aaha! Darold....I was hoping you might say hello.

I've been admiring pics of your parvifrons, it comes up on every Google search. The photo from Troy's post is a beauty.

Is it really only 15 years old?

Very impressive indeed. Look foward to seeing some updated shots tomorrow.

There was a very interesing article in the last IPS Palms mag about Ceroxylon in Ecuador, which had a little section on parvifrons. It describes the growth rate as slow during establishment, fast in sub-aldult phase then slowing down a lot when flowering starts at 5-6m (16-20') height. Then slowly up to 12-15m (40-50').

So Darolds palm should be flowering by now (obviously climate plays a role in growth rates and flowering though...) - any luck Darold?

Cheers,

Jonathan

Darold's plant has just begun to bloom in the last year or so. Can't remember whether it's been identified yet as male or female.

[richnorm]

Just keep a close eye on them when they start flowering. A beautiful trunking specimen started flowering here and was dead within a few months. Quite possibly there was no connection or some other problem promoted a last gasp flowering. Must have had about five metres of trunk.

Aaha! Darold....I was hoping you might say hello.

I've been admiring pics of your parvifrons, it comes up on every Google search. The photo from Troy's post is a beauty.

Is it really only 15 years old?

Very impressive indeed. Look foward to seeing some updated shots tomorrow.

There was a very interesing article in the last IPS Palms mag about Ceroxylon in Ecuador, which had a little section on parvifrons. It describes the growth rate as slow during establishment, fast in sub-aldult phase then slowing down a lot when flowering starts at 5-6m (16-20') height. Then slowly up to 12-15m (40-50').

So Darolds palm should be flowering by now (obviously climate plays a role in growth rates and flowering though...) - any luck Darold?

Cheers,

Jonathan

Darold's plant has just begun to bloom in the last year or so. Can't remember whether it's been identified yet as male or female.

[Caryota_gigas]

Hi Jonathan,

Here is an article you may have already seen that may interest you. Richard visits Darold.

[Jonathan]

Hi Jonathan,

Here is an article you may have already seen that may interest you. Richard visits Darold.

Thanks Micheal, I printed that one out a few days ago - love your website, its one of my frst stops for cold hardy palm info - along with Keith Boyers great little book.

Mind you, I shouldn't be talking to you Kiwis after the cricket last night....though there is a perverse part of me that likes to see NZ beat Australia!

Richard - now that would really make you cry and smash things up....!

Jason - thank you so much, this is exactly the sort of information I'm after.

Your comments on wind resistance are very encouraging, as we have a lot of it here (theres a beach just across the road), and that is one of the main reasons I wanted to get parvifrons before any of the larger species - although I had no idea that they were particularly wind tolerant, I just thought they would be easier to shelter.

I'm thinking of sowing the seeds in small individual pots, to avoid transplant shock - do you think that makes sense (I don't have a huge number). I was thinking of placing them in my shadehouse to germinate - our temperatures are ranging between about 12C - 30C at the moment with average daytime max. temps around 25C. So it should suit them well.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Bennz]

Just keep a close eye on them when they start flowering. A beautiful trunking specimen started flowering here and was dead within a few months. Quite possibly there was no connection or some other problem promoted a last gasp flowering. Must have had about five metres of trunk.

Ooch, where was this? Not one of those famous Landsent trees I hope?

[Caryota_gigas]

The two biggest C. quindiuense at Landsendt are both flowering at the moment.

[Bennz]

The two biggest C. quindiuense at Landsendt are both flowering at the moment.

Any idea if this flowering will result in seeds?

[Jonathan]

That wouldn't be a loaded question would it Ben?!?

I imagine there would be a line a mile long for those little gems....

I'd put my number in the hat too - but I don't think I could bear watching the wind tear them to pieces in 25 years time!

Still waiting for Darolds new snaps.....

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Caryota_gigas]

The two biggest C. quindiuense at Landsendt are both flowering at the moment.

Any idea if this flowering will result in seeds?

Well... from the ground the two trees flowers look different... so may be Male and Female... but hard to tell from that far down. Dick isnt sure either... I guess time will tell...

[richnorm]

No, South Pacific Palms but Landsendt did lose a trunking quindiense last year. Interestingly it was one which had grown from a stray seed in the ground.

Just keep a close eye on them when they start flowering. A beautiful trunking specimen started flowering here and was dead within a few months. Quite possibly there was no connection or some other problem promoted a last gasp flowering. Must have had about five metres of trunk.

Ooch, where was this? Not one of those famous Landsent trees I hope?

[Darold Petty]

Hello to all! I agree with the info posted so far about germination and the establishment phase. The seedlings are difficult at times, are quite susceptible to mites (even outdoors), but become much more reliable with time. I have grown 5 species so far. I want to emphasise that the seedling plants have a very small rootmass compared to the top parts. Thus, they should remain in a smaller pot than one would asssume. I also believe that they are retarded by remaining in pots for a long period. I grew about 50 C. parvifrons, retaining the best ones each time I moved them up to a larger pot size. Eventually, I donated the best ones to my local botanic garden. However, I believe that these plants would have been larger if ground planted earlier. In a private garden palms can be planted much smaller than prudent for a public space. I suggest that Ceroxylons in a private garden be ground planted when the plant is no more than 30-40 cm (15") tall with a stem diameter of 1.5 to 2 cm (.75").

My plant of C. parvifrons was never in a pot after germination. After the eophyll was fully expanded I ground planted the seedling beneath a Chamaedorea microspadix in March of 1991. The establishment phase was quite slow, with no above ground trunk for the first 12 years. In the past 6 years it has grown 3.72 m (12' 2") of true trunk with a diameter of 17 cm (6.75"). It holds 9-11 good leaves, has flowered twice, and is a male plant.

Note that the trunk below the leafbases is more green. The characteristic white wax is a response to sunlight and develops after exposure. My plant is also more white on the sunny side relative to the shady side!

[Jonathan]

Thats a truly beautiful plant Darold, the leaf scar patterns on the trunk are stunning.

Thank you for the cultivation comments as well - very much appreciated.

I've sown the seeds in 100mm deep X 65mm square individual tubes to avoid the need to prick the seedlings out of a community pot, and placed them in the shadehouse. I hope these pots are small enough.

With a couple of months of warm weather left, it should be interesting to see how soon they germinate.

I took a bit of a risk and incorporated a small amount of well rotted sheep manure and sand into the medium in the hope of innoculating the seedlings with beneficial bacteria.

I wouldn't normally use any non-sterile organic matter in propagating mix, but from a lot of the comments posted in this thread, there would seem to be some kind of bacterial or fungal association with Ceroxylon, which may account for their poor performance in pots.

Thanks everyone for your advice,

Jonathan

[Shon]

That is a beauty Darold. I'll second Jonathon on the trunk,WOW.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Hello to all! I agree with the info posted so far about germination and the establishment phase. The seedlings are difficult at times, are quite susceptible to mites (even outdoors), but become much more reliable with time. I have grown 5 species so far. I want to emphasise that the seedling plants have a very small rootmass compared to the top parts. Thus, they should remain in a smaller pot than one would asssume. I also believe that they are retarded by remaining in pots for a long period. I grew about 50 C. parvifrons, retaining the best ones each time I moved them up to a larger pot size. Eventually, I donated the best ones to my local botanic garden. However, I believe that these plants would have been larger if ground planted earlier. In a private garden palms can be planted much smaller than prudent for a public space. I suggest that Ceroxylons in a private garden be ground planted when the plant is no more than 30-40 cm (15") tall with a stem diameter of 1.5 to 2 cm (.75").

My plant of C. parvifrons was never in a pot after germination. After the eophyll was fully expanded I ground planted the seedling beneath a Chamaedorea microspadix in March of 1991. The establishment phase was quite slow, with no above ground trunk for the first 12 years. In the past 6 years it has grown 3.72 m (12' 2") of true trunk with a diameter of 17 cm (6.75"). It holds 9-11 good leaves, has flowered twice, and is a male plant.

Note that the trunk below the leafbases is more green. The characteristic white wax is a response to sunlight and develops after exposure. My plant is also more white on the sunny side relative to the shady side!

That is a nice looking palm Darold and the growth rate once the trunk is formed is amazing ! do you have any pics of your backyard palm garden ?

[JasonD]

Hi Jonathan,

Here is an article you may have already seen that may interest you. Richard visits Darold.

Thanks Micheal, I printed that one out a few days ago - love your website, its one of my frst stops for cold hardy palm info - along with Keith Boyers great little book.

Mind you, I shouldn't be talking to you Kiwis after the cricket last night....though there is a perverse part of me that likes to see NZ beat Australia!

Richard - now that would really make you cry and smash things up....!

Jason - thank you so much, this is exactly the sort of information I'm after.

Your comments on wind resistance are very encouraging, as we have a lot of it here (theres a beach just across the road), and that is one of the main reasons I wanted to get parvifrons before any of the larger species - although I had no idea that they were particularly wind tolerant, I just thought they would be easier to shelter.

I'm thinking of sowing the seeds in small individual pots, to avoid transplant shock - do you think that makes sense (I don't have a huge number). I was thinking of placing them in my shadehouse to germinate - our temperatures are ranging between about 12C - 30C at the moment with average daytime max. temps around 25C. So it should suit them well.

Cheers,

Jonathan

You could plant the seeds in individual pots, but it's not too hard to separate the seeds once they've started to sprout. I don't recall much loss upon separating them from community pots.

[Dan OKeeffe]

The Darold's Ceroxylon Parvifron is truly spectacular looking.