Dypsis "Big Curly" confusion

[LJG]

Ron, are you adding anything constructive to all these old post? Why not just read them instead of bump them? Just asking.

[Jeff Searle]

Ron, are you adding anything constructive to all these old post? Why not just read them instead of bump them? Just asking.

Len,

I guess time will tell. If others see this as an interesting topic(which to me, it is), they will post maybe some additional information. Also, it's been almost 3 years! Does anyone have some new pictures to add? Alot has changed in the clearification on some of these names.

Jeff

[BS Man about Palms]

I'll add something here. I was thinking a bit about this a while back and now that my "Big Curly" has gotten larger AND I've seen the ones getting some size at Jeff Searles nursery, I agree with Matt P that the "Big Curly" is D. canaliculata.

Important part here. My "backyard" BIG CURLY AND OCWS ARE GROWING 8 FEET ROM EACH OTHER AND ARE OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT PALMS.

Part 2 I think "my" OCWS is probably D. Prestoniana based on the So Cal - Florida comparison.

[LJG]

Bill, D. canaliculata comes from only two small places on Madagascar in accordance to POM. Neither where Mardy said the seed from the plants he got as Big Curly were from. So for your theory to be true, D. canaliculata would need to be located (or had been located) in a third spot far from the others, or Mardy simply does not remember or know where his Big Curly's came from.

Also, plants going around as D. canaliculata. What are those? Variation of D. Prestoniana probably?

I'll add something here. I was thinking a bit about this a while back and now that my "Big Curly" has gotten larger AND I've seen the ones getting some size at Jeff Searles nursery, I agree with Matt P that the "Big Curly" is D. canaliculata.

[neoflora]

D. Big Curly, OCWS, D. prestoniana are all probadly the same palm. There are just variations of the same. Another palm I am growing looks similar to these. However it has offset leaves and grows much faster. It was sold to me as Betefaka by Alfred. Some say it looks like what is being sold as D. canniculata. I don,t know. I don,t have any. White Stem as it gets larger looks nothing like any of these palms. My opinion!

[BS Man about Palms]

Bill, D. canaliculata comes from only two small places on Madagascar in accordance to POM. Neither where Mardy said the seed from the plants he got as Big Curly were from. So for your theory to be true, D. canaliculata would need to be located (or had been located) in a third spot far from the others, or Mardy simply does not remember or know where his Big Curly's came from.

Also, plants going around as D. canaliculata. What are those? Variation of D. Prestoniana probably?

I'll add something here. I was thinking a bit about this a while back and now that my "Big Curly" has gotten larger AND I've seen the ones getting some size at Jeff Searles nursery, I agree with Matt P that the "Big Curly" is D. canaliculata.

Len- I probably left out a minor point. My "B C" matches what Jeff has and/or was sold as D canaliculata. Whether that is its true name or not I don't know. My point is I have two different palms. Or as I said before there is the "scientific" point and the "real world" point. (as my example, if I understand right there is only a "Dictyosperma album", there is NOT a rubrum or red variety. But yet as a small plant there are obvious differences. But it MUST be my eyes then because there can't be any red though?? Same with Hyophorbe and others, I suspect a DNA difference that can't be detected as of yet.)

[LJG]

I have no idea why your brought up that last 90% of your statement. My point was true D canaliculata is not what Big Curly is. But if you are saying the plants being sold as D canaliculata are also Big Curly, then you are probably right because in my opinion they are all a variations of D. Prestoniana - which has been discussed before. You never mentioned that in your thread. So there you have it.

Bill, D. canaliculata comes from only two small places on Madagascar in accordance to POM. Neither where Mardy said the seed from the plants he got as Big Curly were from. So for your theory to be true, D. canaliculata would need to be located (or had been located) in a third spot far from the others, or Mardy simply does not remember or know where his Big Curly's came from.

Also, plants going around as D. canaliculata. What are those? Variation of D. Prestoniana probably?

I'll add something here. I was thinking a bit about this a while back and now that my "Big Curly" has gotten larger AND I've seen the ones getting some size at Jeff Searles nursery, I agree with Matt P that the "Big Curly" is D. canaliculata.

Len- I probably left out a minor point. My "B C" matches what Jeff has and/or was sold as D canaliculata. Whether that is its true name or not I don't know. My point is I have two different palms. Or as I said before there is the "scientific" point and the "real world" point. (as my example, if I understand right there is only a "Dictyosperma album", there is NOT a rubrum or red variety. But yet as a small plant there are obvious differences. But it MUST be my eyes then because there can't be any red though?? Same with Hyophorbe and others, I suspect a DNA difference that can't be detected as of yet.)

[BS Man about Palms]

My last 90% point was that some are or will say that my "two different palms" are the same (prestoniana) yet I can group them differently when I look at Jeff Searles plants which appear to match the two different types I have.

[Moose]

Ron, are you adding anything constructive to all these old post? Why not just read them instead of bump them? Just asking.

Len - I have a Dypsis robusta, Dypsis prestoniana & Dypsis canaliculata. There is much discussion about all the Dypsis "sp" that have either not been named as a distict species or have not been identified as a variant of a particular species. Dypsis is the most confusing genera to me.

I read this thread and found it both interesting and informative. It also has interesting photos. They persons posting on this thread have alot more knowledge in this area than I do. The purpose of my bringing the thread "back to life" was to see if new information has evolved. It appears the discussion has recommenced and I am finding out information from fellow palm enthusiasts from around the world. I thought that this was the main reason for the Palm Talk Forum.

I can't keep calling Jeff and Ryan every time I have a Dysis question. I seek everyone's opinion and then render my own conclusions or theories.

Ron.

[Tyrone]

.

[BS Man about Palms]

Well stated, Tyrone.

[Tyrone]

It's what I always say in these sort of situations.

[Shon]

Anyone got an updated picture of Ron's palm? I know it's 3yrs too late but nice pics Pogo.

[DippyD]

ill take a shot of it tomorrow if ron gives me permission. im sure he would be happy to share. it is getting pretty large

[BS Man about Palms]

I was reading some of this stuff tonite and realised I should update that I think via someone or somewhere along the line (i.e. when this thread was started) I called the palms backwards of what I do now.

The "big Curley" Is what I have next to my driveway and is super easy to grow.

The OCWS is an order harder to grow palm and both of these will look similar in time I think, and if in a shaded area, they are easy to distinguish from each other. Not to mention the difficulty of growing this in full sun.

I have also noted what was sold as Dypsis canaliculata is proving to push petioles with color AND tomentum, while the two above show NONE of those characteristics at an early age.

I also still know/ believe that the "non-carlsmithii looking" tokoravina is a different palm again too!

I do have a little bit older plant labeled as Dypsis monymony, which I'm not sure what it is. It most looks like the last batch of Dypsis "prestoniana" from Pete B. gathered in Madagascar. (Which DO NOT look like the older big curley from around here)

There. Perfectly clear, isn't it?

[LJG]

After watching my D. canaliculata grow and seeing a picture of Bo's large one, I am pretty sure D. canaliculata is not a Prestoniana. It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. What ever it is I am willing to bet it was collected in the middle or southern part of the island because it grows well in SoCal unlike all that northern crap

[MattyB]

And, four years later, I'll add that the D. tokoravinas that looked very much like D. carlsmithii, are in fact D. carlsmithii. I planted D. carlsmithii and the supposed D. tokoravina right next to each other and they are identical now.

[Gtlevine]

You should be slapped for bringing back old irrelevant posts.

I was reading some of this stuff tonite and realised I should update that I think via someone or somewhere along the line (i.e. when this thread was started) I called the palms backwards of what I do now.

The "big Curley" Is what I have next to my driveway and is super easy to grow.

The OCWS is an order harder to grow palm and both of these will look similar in time I think, and if in a shaded area, they are easy to distinguish from each other. Not to mention the difficulty of growing this in full sun.

I have also noted what was sold as Dypsis canaliculata is proving to push petioles with color AND tomentum, while the two above show NONE of those characteristics at an early age.

I also still know/ believe that the "non-carlsmithii looking" tokoravina is a different palm again too!

I do have a little bit older plant labeled as Dypsis monymony, which I'm not sure what it is. It most looks like the last batch of Dypsis "prestoniana" from Pete B. gathered in Madagascar. (Which DO NOT look like the older big curley from around here)

There. Perfectly clear, isn't it?

[BS Man about Palms]

You can slap me right after I slap you for the missing picture in your first post in this thread.

[BS Man about Palms]

I like reading this to see what I or we have learned....

I am pretty sure (95%) that Dypsis big curley is Dypsis prestonia and VERY easy to grow (relatively)

Dypsis OCWS is harder to grow by several fold and "looks similar to" some recent Dypsis prestonia (as such) named or collected by Pete Balasky some 4-5 years ago. (which looks different from about the 2 year point on, from the above palm)... but still "kinda close" in looks. I refer to these as the "two-toned" petiole large Dypsis, and the above is a solid green when growing. These here being a "yellow/white" as such.

Dypsis canaliculata is another palm...with tomentum early on..

the "real" Dypsis tokoravina is NOT Dypsis carlsmithii, although MOST of what was sold as D. toko. IS ACTUALLY carlsmithii (probably over 95%)

Dypsis carlsmithii is different.

Dypsis "white stem" is different...although

Dypsis robusta is different but some say is the same as "white stem" ..until thet go back and look at Mardy's and are not sure again...

Oh yes. The latest Dypsis ovobontsira is an altogether different palm!

Still no idea what Dypsis "dark mealybug is"

There are 2 ? types of Dypsis manajarensis (one is plumose with large white distinct mealy bug markings, the other has dark marking and is a regular leaf until quite large)

There are 2 ? types of Dypsis bejofa (and bejoufa)

There. the latest, up to date info on about 5% of the Dypsis....hahaah

Edited February 23, 2012 by BS Man about Palms

[Kim]

Is this what we have learned, or what we are still confused about? I recently planted three D. carlsmithii and one D. tokoravina AND one D. robusta -- when you come to Hawaii you can check them out up close and in person! Nearby I have the established D. canaliculata and the ever-more-massive D. prestoniana. I will be interested in your opinions after you have scoped them all out. When are you coming?

[BS Man about Palms]

Uhhh. This year?

[LJG]

So almost three years later and we still don't know anything

Two winters later and my D canaliculata still won't make it through winter unscathed. I grows fine, even through winter, it just won't stay green like "Big curly" or Prestoniana. So I change my theory on that plant.

[Moose]

That's interesting and weird, I was reading this thread last night and today I see it got bumped? Bill, what say you ???

My Dypsis tokoravina looks like D. carlsmithii to me as well Matty.

D. prestoniana and D. canaliculata look distinct from each other.

Dypsis robusta looks distinct from these others.

That's about all I can determine at this point.

I like reading this to see what I or we have learned....

I am pretty sure (95%) that Dypsis big curley is Dypsis prestonia and VERY easy to grow (relatively)

Dypsis OCWS is harder to grow by several fold and "looks similar to" some recent Dypsis prestonia (as such) named or collected by Pete Balasky some 4-5 years ago. (which looks different from about the 2 year point on, from the above palm)... but still "kinda close" in looks. I refer to these as the "two-toned" petiole large Dypsis, and the above is a solid green when growing. These here being a "yellow/white" as such.

Dypsis canaliculata is another palm...with tomentum early on..

the "real" Dypsis tokoravina is NOT Dypsis carlsmithii, although MOST of what was sold as D. toko. IS ACTUALLY carlsmithii (probably over 95%)

Dypsis carlsmithii is different.

Dypsis "white stem" is different...although

Dypsis robusta is different but some say is the same as "white stem" ..until thet go back and look at Mardy's and are not sure again...

Oh yes. The latest Dypsis ovobontsira is an altogether different palm!

Still no idea what Dypsis "dark mealybug is"

There are 2 ? types of Dypsis manajarensis (one is plumose with large white distinct mealy bug markings, the other has dark marking and is a regular leaf until quite large)

There are 2 ? types of Dypsis bejofa (and bejoufa)

There. the latest, up to date info on about 5% of the Dypsis....hahaah

[Hilo Jason]

What about Dypsis Sp. Jurassic Park? I've read that it is also Tokoravina. Is that true? I have a small one in a 3 gallon pot that looks similar to Prestoniana to me. Just more to add to the confusion!

[BS Man about Palms]

Jason.. I almost typed that... But I am still not sure if Jurassic Park is turning out to be something different... at this point, it looks more like a Dypsis prestoniana than the true D. tokoravina.

[Hilo Jason]

Yeah mine is looking like Prestoniana, even though its still small. I'll try to post a pic of it soon.

[Dypsisdean]

Bill - My 2 cents

D. robusta is no where near a White Stem - IMO

And there are indeed two D. Mananjarensis - the white one and the red one - both with very distinct 'mealys,' and plumose leaves fairly early on. The other one (dark markings and regular leaf until much later) you speak of, is one with which I am unfamiliar. But JD was fairly firm in his description that if it doesn't have distinct Mealys, it's not D. man.

[BS Man about Palms]

Yeah mine is looking like Prestoniana, even though its still small. I'll try to post a pic of it soon.

Happened to spy this old pic I had of a Dypsis "true" D. tokoravina.. VERY different form a carlsmithii.. and when in the shade, the leaflets are quite a bit thinner and grouped versus prestoniana..!!

[BS Man about Palms]

Bill - My 2 cents

D. robusta is no where near a White Stem - IMO

And there are indeed two D. Mananjarensis - the white one and the red one - both with very distinct 'mealys,' and plumose leaves fairly early on. The other one (dark markings and regular leaf until much later) you speak of, is one with which I am unfamiliar. But JD was fairly firm in his description that if it doesn't have distinct Mealys, it's not D. man.

Well Dean. I still admit there are 3 palms that need to use up the manajarensis name... BUT.. the regular leaf one I refer to came in from what I hear, with the Dypsis manajarensis seeds... as the seeds grew, they were seperated out as not the "mealybug" by Mardy et al. If you look at POM, it gives a wide description for manajarensis. As to whether that means there are more than 1 species to be added from that group remains to be seen..

[Hilo Jason]

Yeah, after looking at what I bought as "Sp. Jurassic Park" again, I'm thinking it is actually Prestoniana, at least from what I can tell at a small size. Here's a picture of it:

And here's a picture of it right next to a small Prestoniana. Looks the same to me. ("Jurassic Park" on left, Prestoniana on the right)

So unless it changes as it gets older, I think I'm looking at 2 Prestoniana's, which is ok for me since these are proven to be winners for us here.

[LJG]

The more time I spend collecting rare palms from Madagascar, the more I know that seed collectors in Madagascar read the forums and somehow find what we are all looking for or stoked on at that point in time. It is the Wild West for collectors in Madagascar. Everyone wanted Alfred's Dypsis Sp. Betafaka. Amazingly enough Dypsis Sp. Betafaka was available a few months later. Now I have two different Dypsis Sp. Betafaka and neither are Alfred's plant. Everyone wanted "Black Stem". Some of those got floated around. Do you want "Ovobonsira"? Guess what, we now have that floating around - in a few forms. Dypsis ambositrae is a classic. I have seen so many different ones of these - to include Dypsis plumose aka 'fine leaf' when it first released. Amazing! I am giving up on names as no one validates the stuff really out of Madagascar. Unless you get it off a known tree from Jeff Marcus for example, who really knows what you will end up with? I am so glad people like Jeff have an interest in proper nomenclature because I know a few selling plants that could care less about proper ID because they can make a few more bucks leaving it knowingly mislabeled.

[Dypsisdean]

Len,

This is why I suggested a few years ago that a seed collector would be wise to take a photo of the mother plant and include it with any seeds they are selling. This would be so valuable to us growers. But all I got back was how difficult that would be for them to do that. How expensive cameras were, and how carrying them around would be so much trouble. But carrying around POM was no problem.

However, if that was done, then it would be harder to come up with "fake" names and shady IDs. I would much rather see a pic of the mother tree than have the ID of someone trying to make a buck any day.

With cameras becoming smaller, cheaper, more durable and easier to use these days, the excuses for not doing this would seem to be getting flimsier. In fact they are included in most cell phones these days - making it even easier to send the pics to interested buyers. If the consumers starting asking for pics, or even paying more for them, this might become a standard practice.

It sure would make the seed collectors more accountable.

[LJG]

Dean, I remember that thread. I am sure it would help but if they are so happy to falsely label things now, what's to stop them from taking pictures of something else or even pull it from the Internet?

I don't mind all the chaos. At the end of the day it is just another piece of the puzzle that keeps Madagascar palms so interesting.

[Gtlevine]

Len summed it up, I started pumping up my holy grail Dypsis ifanadianaea that I saw on my trip to Madagascar and guess what? two months later they were for sale. I knew immediately they were fakes because I collected the seedlings in Madagascar. It's the big Dypsis scam like Len said.

[Urban Rainforest]

You know I'm starting to think my Dypsis Prestoniana in San Diego may be Dypsis Caniliculata. It's about 3 ft. tall and grows through the winter (opening a frond right now) but always gets really beat up in the winter. Also the leaflets are thinner and not as ballooned or cupped as my Prestoniana in Hawaii. I hope as it gets bigger it will grow out of this phase and become hardier.

Stevo

[BS Man about Palms]

You know I'm starting to think my Dypsis Prestoniana in San Diego may be Dypsis Caniliculata. It's about 3 ft. tall and grows through the winter (opening a frond right now) but always gets really beat up in the winter. Also the leaflets are thinner and not as ballooned or cupped as my Prestoniana in Hawaii. I hope as it gets bigger it will grow out of this phase and become hardier.

Stevo

Do you remember where you got it Steve? Was it a Clark plant?

[Urban Rainforest]

You know I'm starting to think my Dypsis Prestoniana in San Diego may be Dypsis Caniliculata. It's about 3 ft. tall and grows through the winter (opening a frond right now) but always gets really beat up in the winter. Also the leaflets are thinner and not as ballooned or cupped as my Prestoniana in Hawaii. I hope as it gets bigger it will grow out of this phase and become hardier.

Stevo

Do you remember where you got it Steve? Was it a Clark plant?

Bill, You know I've had it so long I really can't remeber where I got it. Definately not Clark though. I had one I bought years ago as Caniliculata and it lived for several years but croaked before I could get it in the ground.

Stevo

[Moose]

Is it just me or does Len look amazingly like Steve McQueen?