Freeze-Pruf

[PalmGuyWC]

Smartlung,

I don't think temps. in palm growing areas of the USA have been low enough yet to test Freeze-Pruf. Just wait another 2 or 3 weeks and the results should start pouring in.

Dick

[Moose]

Smartlung,

I don't think temps. in palm growing areas of the USA have been low enough yet to test Freeze-Pruf. Just wait another 2 or 3 weeks and the results should start pouring in.

Dick

Dick - I agree. From Missouri - show me.

[Big Tex]

I ordered a couple of gallons last week. I plan on giving it a try this winter and will let you know what differences I see. I still plan on normal protection for my tender palms even though this year they are almost too big to do much.

[mjff]

I bought a whole case of the concentrate (a friend owns a nursery and I had him add it to his BWI order, $282 for 4 gallons of concentrate), and plan on using it on my palms this winter. So far I have only put it on the Pentas, and they survived our first couple of freezes, but in the sheltered spot I have them they survived the entire winter last year, and are now 2 year old annuals. Will be particularly interested to see if it will keep my Queen from being defoliated this year.

[Juni Perez]

Dr. Franko's reply is slightly misleading, i.e., "This product would work

well for you in that it basically adds a 1/2-USDA Zone or so equivalent

to the hardiness range of palms....,"

Since this product is a sprayed on topical (and not systemic), it may well add a 1/2 zone USDA zone equivalence to the foilage, but not the stem/trunks, growth bud, etc. on palms. I feel that distinction should be made more apparent. It will do little good to preserve foliage if the growth bud is severely damaged or killed.

Walt,

The product is applied topically, but has an ingredient that helps the plant absorb it... so it goes systemic as well. It even gets distributed down to the roots and is now being field-tested to see how it affects plants on root-hardiness. Per Dr Francko, it DOES protect the bud tissue both by coating it and going systemic; so it's important to not forget to spray that area and let the product drip well into the crown.

Regards,

Juni

[Walt]

Dr. Franko's reply is slightly misleading, i.e., "This product would work

well for you in that it basically adds a 1/2-USDA Zone or so equivalent

to the hardiness range of palms....,"

Since this product is a sprayed on topical (and not systemic), it may well add a 1/2 zone USDA zone equivalence to the foilage, but not the stem/trunks, growth bud, etc. on palms. I feel that distinction should be made more apparent. It will do little good to preserve foliage if the growth bud is severely damaged or killed.

Walt,

The product is applied topically, but has an ingredient that helps the plant absorb it... so it goes systemic as well. It even gets distributed down to the roots and is now being field-tested to see how it affects plants on root-hardiness. Per Dr Francko, it DOES protect the bud tissue both by coating it and going systemic; so it's important to not forget to spray that area and let the product drip well into the crown.

Regards,

Juni

Juni: I'm basing my opinion and assumptions on what I read in the article (linked to at the start of this thread), that I feel the product will do little, if anything, to protect the palm's bud and trunk.

Re: ....Freeze-Pruf lowers both the temperature at which damage first becomes noticeable in plants as well as the temperature that would normally kill the plant, according to the research results. “It protects both the foliage and the flower,” Francko said.

The formula was scientifically tested in the laboratory and in the field, using both visual damage and the results of photosynthetic assays to measure foliar and flower damage. The photosynthetic assay was a biochemical analysis to check the spray’s effectiveness at the sub-cellular level....

Note the emphasis on just leaf and flower. Note the photos only showing foliage types of plants. I saw no mention in the article that the product has systemic properties. Perhaps you have an updated article stating same. Further, topically applied systemics (from what I was told by a manufacturer rep) don't translocate throughgout the plant, only locally inwardly from the plant surface from which it is applied. I think only root drench systemic products will translocate through the entire plant, and then they are limited as to just how far they can translocate upward into the plant, tree, shrub, etc.

The bottom line for me is that I am looking for specific claims that the product, when applied as Dr. Franko directs, the product will give a specific degree of protection to a palm's growth bud and trunk, and not just it's leaves. IMO, Dr. Franko has published far too much information on cold hardy palms and protection of same, not to state more specifically that Freeze-Pruf protects the growth bud, trunk, roots of palms -- but rather uses the generic term "plants."

From two articles I've read thus far on Dr. Franko's Freeze-Pruf, I have not read anything so far that specifically addresses the growth bud and trunk. Until I do I will remain skeptical.

This past winter I lost several Archontophoenix cunninghamina palms (all with about 18 inches of trunk) to a 23.5 degree F freeze. The growth buds were killed, yet many of the fronds still had 10% green foliage left. All of my palms were treated with copper sulfate within a few days of the freezes. So I say again, it will do little good to preserve foliage if the growth bud is severely damaged or killed.

I'm not trying to knock the product. I'm only trying to ascertain more specifically what the product can do, as I'm just not gleaning that from the articles I've read so far. For me, I'm more interested in bud and trunk protection, and only secondarily interested in foliage protection. If the product only protects foliage, that's fine, and it certainly has its place and I would use it as I have many foliage type of plants. But again, I must know if the product will offer the same (or near same) degree of protection to a palm's growth bud.

Walt

[mjff]

If the product is absorbed by the leaf, then it is almost certainly going to wind up in the bud, roots, etc. The product is being marketed for broader uses than just palms, hence the reason the things you have read are pretty generic. If it will keep ice crystals from developing in leaves and flowers then the same should be true in other parts of the plant. I would guess this is going to be most effective on smaller palms that have a higher ratio of leaf area to absorb the product in relation to the rest of the plant. In other words spraying it on a small Jubaea that has no trunk will be much more effective than spraying it on one with 20' of trunk where it would be so diluted in the massive amount of water stored in the plant that concentrations would be meaningless.

[kahili]

After reading the list of active/inactive ingredients, I would not call this product a "true systemic", in that it only affects the leaves, and not the entire plant. Acephate is supposedly a systemic, but it only lasts a week, and is only absorbed thru the leaves and not down throughout the plant into the root system. thats why its so cheap, and why it only lasts a week. There are different degrees of effectiveness tied to different systemics. The, what I call the "true systemics", are taken up through the roots and last a month and are expensive, but the most effective at what they do.

Freeze-Pruf uses polyethylene glycol 8000 as its main active ingredient-this is what is absorbed by the leaf and affects the cells. The glycerin coats the leaf and with the potassium salts aids the leaf in absorbing the polyethylene fast. Thats why he can say that the leaves absorb it within 8 hours. they use Potassium salts in Roundup, its what speeds up the absorption process. The surfactant is the siloxane polyalkyleneoxide copolymer. Because he is telling you to coat the underneath of the leaves, that is a good hint that its not a systemic that will move through the plant, up and down. If you were able to talk with Dr. Franco face to face, I would bet that he would quickly admit that this is not a "true systemic "(or at least not a very effective systemic), and that the main parts of the plant that are being protected are the leaves. With some plants that are mostly vegetative-this may be a good product to use for a quick freeze-like strawberry plants etc, although I don't know how effective it would be with the actual strawberry (or any other fruit like citrus).

One interesting thing that caught my eye on the tech sheet is that he only exposed a coleus plant to 29 degrees for one hour, and while the lack of damage was impressive (again-a vegetative plant), why only an hour? Most freezes that get down to 29 degrees are for more than one hr, most are for much longer times.

My thoughts are that this could be useful for palms where you are interested in keeping the foliage green, thus increasing the length of growing time for the plant, in borderline cold situations. You may also get away with using this instead of covering the palm in certain situations It is not going to keep the inner parts of the palm protected if the temps are lower than the palm can handle. There will be a lot of variation in results depending on the palm, location, degree/type of coldness and length of coldness. I would definitely protect the trunk when its really cold, and not rely on this product.

[Rafael]

Does anyone knows some product frost protector?

[Juni Perez]

Juni: I'm basing my opinion and assumptions on what I read in the article (linked to at the start of this thread), that I feel the product will do little, if anything, to protect the palm's bud and trunk.

Note the emphasis on just leaf and flower. Note the photos only showing foliage types of plants. I saw no mention in the article that the product has systemic properties. Perhaps you have an updated article stating same. Further, topically applied systemics (from what I was told by a manufacturer rep) don't translocate throughgout the plant, only locally inwardly from the plant surface from which it is applied. I think only root drench systemic products will translocate through the entire plant, and then they are limited as to just how far they can translocate upward into the plant, tree, shrub, etc.

The bottom line for me is that I am looking for specific claims that the product, when applied as Dr. Franko directs, the product will give a specific degree of protection to a palm's growth bud and trunk, and not just it's leaves. IMO, Dr. Franko has published far too much information on cold hardy palms and protection of same, not to state more specifically that Freeze-Pruf protects the growth bud, trunk, roots of palms -- but rather uses the generic term "plants."

From two articles I've read thus far on Dr. Franko's Freeze-Pruf, I have not read anything so far that specifically addresses the growth bud and trunk. Until I do I will remain skeptical.

This past winter I lost several Archontophoenix cunninghamina palms (all with about 18 inches of trunk) to a 23.5 degree F freeze. The growth buds were killed, yet many of the fronds still had 10% green foliage left. All of my palms were treated with copper sulfate within a few days of the freezes. So I say again, it will do little good to preserve foliage if the growth bud is severely damaged or killed.

I'm not trying to knock the product. I'm only trying to ascertain more specifically what the product can do, as I'm just not gleaning that from the articles I've read so far. For me, I'm more interested in bud and trunk protection, and only secondarily interested in foliage protection. If the product only protects foliage, that's fine, and it certainly has its place and I would use it as I have many foliage type of plants. But again, I must know if the product will offer the same (or near same) degree of protection to a palm's growth bud.

Walt

Walt,

I know you're not trying to knock the product. I myself had a lot of questions when I first started reading on it... and you're right, not much info was given on the effect on palms - but that's because it was created for plants/trees/shrubs in general. I don't even remember reading any articles on the effect on the bud. My info is based on emails from Dr Francko. I've sent him a few emails, and while I'm sure he must be overwhelmed with all the emails he's getting, not just from myself, but from other users, he has taken the time to answer them for me.

From what I've gotten so far, it does protect the bud. He stated how important it is to let some of the product drip into the crown and bud tissue. It will coat it as well be absorbed into the tissue to help strengthen the cell walls and lower its freezing point. So spray EVERYTHING and let it drip in there.

He did claim it was distributed throughout the cells systemically due to one of the ingredients in there helping the product get absorbed into the cells, and that while no tests had been done on its effect on root hardiness, they are now being conducted (field tests) and he expects to be hearing results soon.

He IS in the process of writing another book because it's been a while and because of all of the new discoveries in cold-hardy specimens and techniques. I expect to hear more on FreezePruf (as well as other products) in there.

As far as chemistry goes, I don't know much about the technical terms, so unless the article is in layman's terms, I won't get much out of it. I guess that is why I had so many questions.

[Zeeth]

I wonder how well this would work with coconuts. Like, could it push the growing zone of them to say... Orlando? Anyone going to try this product out this winter?

[PalmGuyWC]

I'm reading 36F at 6:40 AM, so it's only a matter of days before I get my first freezing temps. of the season. I think it's time to apply Freeze-Pruf to some of my cold sensitive palms, and I will report the results. I can expect off and on frosts for the next 4 months in N. Calif.

Dick

[BeerPlant]

I wonder how well this would work with coconuts. Like, could it push the growing zone of them to say... Orlando? Anyone going to try this product out this winter?

Zeeth,

Just picked up a couple of bottles (east of Tampa by Ray) so will let you know my progress. Hoping it will possibly help out with marginal plumeria as well.

Bill

[John Case]

I'm reading 36F at 6:40 AM, so it's only a matter of days before I get my first freezing temps. of the season. I think it's time to apply Freeze-Pruf to some of my cold sensitive palms, and I will report the results. I can expect off and on frosts for the next 4 months in N. Calif.

Dick

Dick,

How many times will you have to apply it over the winter?

[PalmGuyWC]

John,

I think it would depend on the trend of the weather. Seems like our night temps. in Nov. have been cooler than normal with clear skys. The long range forcast for Dec. is wet, so that should mean cloud cover and warmer. Sometimes in Feb. or March we get two or there weeks of unusually warm weather, but you never know what to expect. I would imagine 3 applications during our cold weather should do the trick. If I expected really cold, then I would probably put on another application. I just hope I can get off my lazy duff and do it.

Dick

[John Case]

John,

I think it would depend on the trend of the weather. Seems like our night temps. in Nov. have been cooler than normal with clear skys. The long range forcast for Dec. is wet, so that should mean cloud cover and warmer. Sometimes in Feb. or March we get two or there weeks of unusually warm weather, but you never know what to expect. I would imagine 3 applications during our cold weather should do the trick. If I expected really cold, then I would probably put on another application. I just hope I can get off my lazy duff and do it.

Dick

Fortify wth a toddy!

[GREENHAND]

I dont know if i would be spraying it on your prize palms just yet, i think i would experement around on other less valuable plants first, what if it helped the palm in the winter, then the Texas sun hits it and its 105 deg, and it still has a jacket on. I wonder if that has been considered. Does it just wash off, if so do you have to apply after each rain. that could get costly. in Texas it can be freezing one day and 85 deg the next. Using at first on bananas at first is would be a good test plant. Just a thought !.

[_Keith]

I ordered a couple of gallons last week. I plan on giving it a try this winter and will let you know what differences I see. I still plan on normal protection for my tender palms even though this year they are almost too big to do much.

Looks like you'll need it this weekend.

From the Houston Chron

The high temperature Friday will struggle to reach the low 40s and the low will be in the upper 20s. The record low for the date is 27, set in 1897.

Normal temperatures in Houston for this time of year range between the upper 60s to mid-40s.

As much as about two inches of snow could accumulate in some spots, but it will be a brief snowfall if it comes down at all.

[PalmGuyWC]

I talked to a friend of mine in Dallas this morning and he said it was snowing, but melting as soon as it hit the ground.

Dick

[Moose]

B.S. - has anyone on his forum had success with this product?

I told you so............

[Moose]

B.S. - has anyone on his forum had success with this product?

I told you so............

You would think that since it appears that this product may not be what it was cracked up to be. Do you think the company sould refund the money, it definitely was not cheap? Something tells me that this product will not be around much longer. Has anyone had success with this product? It appears that cold damage retarding claims are being tested this winter?

[falcon1988]

I tried it out on my hurricane palm when we had these cold nights and so far freeze pruf is just dead in the

water the whole palm is burned up I will be getting my money back i applied this when the air temp was in the 70's and

this does not work at all.

[CoconutFreak]

What the f**k is this shit? Never heard of it and will never try it. I agree with falcon1988, it would/does not work. You cannot change plant hardiness!

[Collectorpalms]

In February I used a "multipot" Pygmy Date Palm for a FreezePruf experiment. I sprayed one of the plants with Freezepruf, one with Anti-desicant, and then left the rest alone. I put a thermometer in the clump to get the actual low (28) 6 days before this picture was taken. It only got down to 33 during the snow, but as you can tell the damage was showing up already from the 78 the day before the snow. With a low of only 28, a sheet would have easily been the cheaper and easier option and would have stayed green.

[Walt]

IMO, there's been enough negative anecdotal experience (failures and disappointing results with respect to Freeze-Pruf) posted here to convince me this product is a complete dud -- at least with respect to protecting palm foliage. I was skeptical from the start concerning the claims of this product, based on what the advertisment of this product said/implied -- but mostly what it didn't say.

I think it can now be safely said that Freeze-Pruf proves the time honored maxim: If something sounds too good to be true -- it usually is!

[Mark_NoVA]

A positive result is reported here.

[Collectorpalms]

TRUST ME, I sell palm trees, If it worked I, and every other grower would give it away Free just to sell more palms!

After my experiment, I feel confident that is hokus pokus. These other reports had no control group as far as I could tell. I did... Three pygmys side by side. Not based on what the pygmy looked like after last winter, or what the Foxtails in the neighborhood looked like. I sprayed it on other things too, BOP and Bougan. etc.. same results

Ryan

Edited April 3, 2010 by Collectorpalms

[Moose]

The only post found on the hardy palm website that was convinced that the product was effective had 42 inches of snow covering his palms. This effectively acted as an insulating factor and probably kept the palms and soil right around the freezing temperature. Another poster who lives 10 miles away, stated that although February saw record snow fall, December and January were realitively warm this winter.

If you feel that this product is beneficial, here are some more products you may be interested in:

[Walt]

There's been more than one post here on the subject of Freeze-Pruf, and I've expressed my skepticism on each of them.

I first became skeptical when I read the advertisment (to include a couple of photos showing broad leaved tropical plants) that were sprayed with Freeze-Pruf, vis-a-vis the same plants unsprayed.

I read all the claims, touting big increases in one's USDA cold hardiness zone, etc.

But the red flag that initially sparked my skepticism was that there was no photos and test results showing how Freeze-Pruf could protect palm foliage. I found this puzzling since Dr. David A. Francko published the book "Palms Won't Grow Here and Other Myths: Warm-Climate Plants for Cooler Areas."

So the above being said, logic would dictate that Dr. Francko would have promoted the use of Freeze-Pruf on palms, which could only bolster his findings and opinions as to how far north and/or outside USDA cold hardiness zones the nature range various palms could be grown.

Although I was skeptical, I was hoping others here had reasonable success using Freeze-Pruf on their palm foliage. Because had it worked, I surely would have purchased Freeze-Pruf to protect my palms' foliage on the couple of frosty nights I get each winter. Through other's unfortunate experiences with this product, I now see I saved my self some time and money -- and big disappointment.

[kahili]

Concerning the link to the hardy palm forum: it doesn't sway me in favor of its effectiveness. He only showed two of the most hardiest palms that will handle a tough winter. My needles and minors have experienced everything when it comes to winter-covered with ice for days, 20" of snow for a few weeks, 8 degrees for a few days etc., and they have always come through with no problems-without using any sort of protection. If the palms were more marginal, than I would be more interested in the results. This doesn't do it for me.

[Nigel]

It would be better to give the plant superthrive in summer.

I sold a product here in the UK which contained the same active ingredients as superthrive, ie NAA and Vitamin B1 and did some experiments.

I was not looking for cold hardiness, but for faster transplantation and growth.

What surprised me was that the treated plants held up to winter far better than the untreated plants. It was quite stunning.

Therefore in my opinion giving a root hormone that builds a massive root system and thus a much more robust and strong plant actually will increase resistance to cold.

[TheChemist]

I never tried FreezePruf (it is'nt available in Germany), but I tried a self-made mixture with similar ingredients (as my nickname says, I'm a chemist!). Dr. Francko gave enough hints in several internet-statements/interviews, main (but not sole) ingredient is a PEG.

I tested my own mix on several plants (in a temperature regulated freezer). Results:

For some plants (for example roses with leaves and flowers), that normaly have nearly no frost resistence, it worked (around 2 °C - 3 °C better resistance against frost). But with the frost resistant Trachycarpus fortunei (young plants with first divided leaves), I didn't see any effect.

I think, the "original" FreezePruf has a similar effect ...

Edited April 3, 2010 by TheChemist

[Moose]

[Walt]

I understand your point, about the value of Freeze-pruf -- and concur.

On the positive side, dried dung could be burned next to cold tender palms, thereby giving off needed heat so as to prevent frost/cold damage!

[Moose]

Curious if anyone has ordered this product with winter less than 88 days away?

[Jimhardy]

I tried some on a few things last year but it arrived frozen and was to late

Just kidding about it being frozen on arrival,

I did not feel it made any difference in my trials and I did get my money back but.......

I still have almost a gallon left and there is a possible frost coming here this weekend.

I plan to try it first on some plants that are very frost tender(like Castor bean leaves)

and see if there is any difference and then on some other plants,Bananas and such that I will

let get burned anyway before I dig them up.

We'll see................

Edited October 1, 2010 by Jimhardy