When is enough, So Cal Palm Society.

[palmazon]

Kent is toiling away in obscurity (Fallbrook area, I believe)

[Jeff Searle]

One more suggestion regarding content:

There must be more people like Gary that have a ton of knowledge and great camera skills, but feel a little inadequate when it comes to writing skills. I have a feeling more people may be willing to contribute if they felt someone with some skills could spice up their articles a little.

Let Gary submit an article with pics, let someone make him sound like Hemingway, send it back to him for an OK, and you have a great article.

Dean,

You have no idea, (well you probably do). I can assure you this is a huge deciding factor. Because I'm one of them.

Jeff

[Gtlevine]

Some of the things mentioned I would like to comment on.

1) Paperless online journals.

I don't like this, reading online is not entertaining and the photos never look as good as in print. I love grabbing journals of years past

and re-reading them and looking at the old photos. I love my small library of old journals and I don't want it to go away.

2) Publications are not necessary for a society, the other benefits like banquets, garden tours, people, etc.... are why I join.

Someone already mention that the events are on Saturdays and can't attend 80% of them. I have been to only 2% of these events

for the same reason, I am always busy. Without the journal I would cancel my membership because the journal is the only

reason I am a member.

3) Kim, if you can turn me into Hemingway, I will write more articles again. I can make you a trade, you teach me to write and I can

teach you finite element analysis.

4) Journal costs

Most of you in the past said you prefer the journal format as related to size. I actually prefer the smaller journal size the way it use

to be and the current size of the IPS journal. Can we save some money and go back to the smaller size journal? I would love to go back

to the old size format.

Gary

[BS Man about Palms]

Since I've got everyone's attention maybe someone could answer my original post and the follow-up here....what ever happened to Kent Houser? Did he fall off the planet unbeknownst to all?

I have happened upon Kent at Jeff Brusseau's on ocassion also.

[PalmGuyWC]

I'm glad this subject has been broached, as it's been so long since I recieved a S.Cal. journal, I thought maybe my membership had lapsed. The only reason I belong is to recieve the journal, as geography prevents me from attending S. Calif. functions. I always thought the Journal was very professionally done, certainly more casual than PALMS, but still loaded with good information and great pictures. I hope the journal is not allowed to lapse.

There are a lot of people out there that are computer shy, but recieving a journal from time to time is often the glue that holds a society together. It's nice to recieve a journal, news on curent activities, and just to be reminded there is a Palm Society. There is some very good material written on Palm Talk, and I often wondered why some of that material couldn't be used in the Journals?

We also have a lot of "characters" who are palm society members. Why couldn't profiles be written about some of our more interesting palm nuts? There are many new members of the Palm Society, and it's a shame that more or the history of the Society, how it was formed, and struggled in its early years is not discussed. There are many little side storys that could be told, which some might say is nothing but idle gossip, but which would be interesting and put a personality on some of the old names that show up from time to time.

One of the more interesting board meetings was held in San Francisco at an early morning meeting. There was to be a very serious discussion about the publishing of Genera Palmarum and both of the authors were there. One of our board members showed up drunk as a skunk, and almost disrupted the board meeting. I was furious at the time, but looking back on it, it was rather comical. I'm sure many of us have interesting storys to tell, and that are publishable.

Dick

[tropicalb]

Jack...

Why not have two levels of memberships available:

1. Membership only:

this membership allows you to attend all PSSC functions, and does not include a journal. Membership cost would be $10-$20 per year to join.

2. Journal membership:

this membership would allow you to attend all PSSC functions, PLUS receive the journals. Membership cost to be determined by the cost of publishing and delivering a first-class journal.

Comments?

[Kim]

Jack...

Why not have two levels of memberships available:

1. Membership only:

this membership allows you to attend all PSSC functions, and does not include a journal. Membership cost would be $10-$20 per year to join.

2. Journal membership:

this membership would allow you to attend all PSSC functions, PLUS receive the journals. Membership cost to be determined by the cost of publishing and delivering a first-class journal.

Comments?

Burt, I don't think the math adds up. While I am not privy to the budget, the cost to produce the journal in print at all has to be pretty hefty; printing more copies and paying postage is not that much more. In fact you probably get a lower cost per journal with higher volume and bulk mailing rates. Giving up, what? 50% of your income to save 20% in costs (just estimates) isn't a solution. I do think they should offer a choice of printed or online journal, however membership should be the same for everyone. I was surprised to learn recently that many members of the PSSC are scattered around the country and the globe; some are libraries, universities, other plant societies, horticultural institutions, botanical gardens, you name it. I was also surprised at the large number of members, many times the number who attend the meetings. It follows, therefore, that these people and institutions are in it for the Journal; to sustain that level of membership it is critical to continue to produce a first-rate publication.

[tropicalb]

I was also surprised at the large number of members, many times the number who attend the meetings. It follows, therefore, that these people and institutions are in it for the Journal; to sustain that level of membership it is critical to continue to produce a first-rate publication.

My point exactly Kim...let those who are in it solely for the journal pay for it.

[madagascarbob]

I dont have cable TV or a cell phone I'm not going to pay $50 bucks for a newsletter that has information that I already know ! Maybe it should be an online newsletter !

[Dypsisdean]

Kim, Jack, (and any others on the editorial staff),

As you two know, I have devised a way to present the Palm Journal in high quality format online, at no cost to the PSSC. I continue to believe that doing this, perhaps 6 months to a year later than the release of the printed version, would do several advantageous things. To name a few:

1) Expose many more outside of SoCal to the PSSC and it's Journal, and give them a reason to become a member. By releasing it later, it would not really compete with the printed version.

2) The extra exposure, and the ability to include direct links to advertiser's (and/or contributor's) web pages, would warrant higher advertising rates. And perhaps encourage more contributors.

3) With the software I am working with, it would be possible to "spice it up" with actual audio interviews, or added pics, that because of space, were not able to be included in the printed version. I am also working with ways to include good quality video.

4) With proper technique it could also be indexed, so a search feature could yield results for an inquiry about a certain species, garden, event, or individual, from years of Journals.

It would be an added benefit for members and not in lieu of a printed version. If desired, it may be possible to limit viewing to paying members, so contributors would have no reason to feel any differently about the use of their work. Or we could only release much older issues for general consumption.

However, I continue to believe any types of contributors' concerns could be worked out, and in fact, this online format could be used to promote, or work in support, of what contributors may wish to accomplish. IMO, the more available the material could be made, and the more who actually see what an excellent publication it is, the more potential members will be exposed.

More members would mean more resources in the form of contributors, volunteers, and revenues to continue and improve the PSSC and it's Journal.

[_Keith]

Kim, Jack, (and any others on the editorial staff),

3) With the software I am working with, it would be possible to "spice it up" with actual audio interviews, or added pics, that because of space, were not able to be included in the printed version. I am also working with ways to include good quality video.

Dean, I think are hitting on it with Item 3. Online multimedia can not only supplement print media, in many ways it can far surpass it, and now with free to nearly free tools on top of that. The combination of the two is the optimum.

[Dypsisdean]

Kim, Jack, (and any others on the editorial staff),

3) With the software I am working with, it would be possible to "spice it up" with actual audio interviews, or added pics, that because of space, were not able to be included in the printed version. I am also working with ways to include good quality video.

Dean, I think are hitting on it with Item 3. Online multimedia can not only supplement print media, in many ways it can far surpass it, and now with free to nearly free tools on top of that. The combination of the two is the optimum.

Keith,

You and I are "computer guys," so we can see that. Unfortunately the vast majority is unaware of the potential the web has to offer. Record me an interview as an MP3, or submit an article with pics as a PDF, or a video as a .MOV or FLV, and I can have it posted and available to the world in less than a minute. In fact, Palmpedia is set up so that an individual can upload and display material themselves as they wish for free.

[RainForestt Robert]

I was previously a member of the PSSC! All the way in Trinidad, the only benefit I had was the journal. It started arriving late, sometimes it never arrived. Emailed the membership chair. Was treated like scale, so I did not renew. When the journal arrived I loved it. I loved the focus on a specific palm family. I read of palms members were growing and researched them. Now I am growing some of those palms. To a large extent palmtalk has replaced the PSSC journal. New info is added daily, I can get it whenever I want, the photos are great and when I go to biennials virtual and real worlds collide. That being said, if the kinks to the journal could be worked out, I would reconsider re-joining.

btw, Dean sounds like the perfect editor!!

Robert

[Dypsisdean]

btw, Dean sounds like the perfect editor!!

Robert

Thanks Robert,

But believe it or not, I am not fishing for the job. The position of editor really needs someone in SoCal.

However, my offer to host and post the PSSC Journal for free is still on the table. In fact, any palm society that would like to have their publication online is welcome. If it is presented in a recent version of a PDF, I can do it easily.

[tropicalb]

Dean....

The PSSC could do all of what you suggested at the drop of a hat, and could easily host it on their own website. I would suggest they hire you to do the work and have their SoCal webmasters load it up on their site.

I still see nothing wrong with a "tiered" membership; many successful businesses operate that way.

[DoomsDave]

This is certainly an interesting topic.

I share Gary's frustration regarding the lack of a journal.

On the other hand, putting one out is a lot of work, I know from first-hand experience.

It seems that there's a fundamental difference between the IPS and our local society. I would expect the IPS to have the more professional journal. They have a worldwide membership that includes palm scientists, and they can probably afford to contract out some of the work. They probably have a stockpile of articles to draw from.

We here at PSSC don't have as large a pool, though we certainly have some distinguished members of it. Were I retired, I'd edit the Palm Journal. But I'm not, and I don't harbor any illusions about the work involved. That said, I'll be writing articles.

It seems that the primary focus of our local journal is the local palm experience. It's nice to have an article or two from the big guns at the IPS, but I'm personally much more interested in what our members have to say about themselves and their gardens. And I don't care if they don't write like Hemingway (I hate Hemingway anyway . . . ) -- just write like you.

So, Gary, while it's good to be candid about perceived shortcomings, your lack of palm-related knowledge and experience to share with the rest of us fellow palm-sufferers is certainly not one of them. Okay, I'm not much for ID-ing obscure Dypsis varieties and sub-varieties. I suspect you aren't either, and if that's true, I don't care. I've learned other valuable things from you, such as that Hedyscepe will thrive in an inland valley like yours (and mine!) and that Ravenea xerophylla (sp?) will grow here if given enough heat. And, that you CAN survive a wildfire! Your capital of knowledge is much more than you appear to give yourself credit for. (If you feel you need editing help, I'm an e-mail or PM away. Seriously.)

Like you, I want a print journal. When Jeff and Ken from Florida came to visit they read through my old (ancient!) palm journals from the 1990s, when I was still new at all this and wrote articles when Gary Wood ran things. Very capably, I might add. It's nice to go back through the old ones and reread things. If we want to have it online, too, great, but not all of us are web-savvy.

Okay, I'd like to have compelling content, and socko! pictures, but our humble journal isn't Esquire, or Vanity Fair. And it needn't be. Just git 'er done.

I'll be writing articles in the meantime.

dave

[Jim in Los Altos]

Living up here in the Bay Area, the main reason I joined the Southern CA Society was for the journal since going to meetings 400+ miles away isn't practical, as much as I'd like to. I have enjoyed the articles very much and I like the fact that most are written by hobbiests and aren't overly technical. I read the IPS journal for that type of journalism.

I'm really looking forward to the journal resuming publication so that I have something to justify my three year subscription.

[Matt in SD]

This is an interesting thread, and I hope it is productive. I've been wondering where my PSSC journal was, was wondering if my membership had been messed up or something.

One thing that I do disagree with Gary about is the lack of content. While the IPS journal is more technical and scientific, I've found the PSSC journal to have more articles that I actually find interesting and/or informative, and the photos tend to be better. I don't really care if the articles are written well or not. I'm not reading the journal for the quality of the writing, but for the content and shared knowledge. I guess if people are embarrassed about their writing skills, that's an issue that can be addressed by having someone edit their contributions. But overall, I prefer to read the articles in each person's own style, even it's it's not Hemingway-esque.

Because the writing in the journal seemed pretty, uh shall I say "raw" at times, I felt perfectly comfortable writing an article when asked...about 18 months ago. I was pretty excited about it, and had plans to write several more articles (one on organic gardening information and practices, one on orchid species that do well outside and methods for mounting on palms). I was told the article would be published, as far as I know it wasn't rejected, they always say they need more people to write articles. But since the article I wrote has still not been published, and I haven't even gotten the journal for, well I can't even remember when I got the last one...it seems like a waste of time honestly.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I doubt I'm the only one out there who would be eager to contribute if I felt that the time I spent writing an article or getting photos would actually go towards something. So if getting people to contribute is a problem, that should not be the end of the journal. Just put something out with great photos and a few articles that take minimal time to put together and can be done mostly by the people who are actually putting the journal together. Kim's interviewing method sounds great for some real solid content that might be lost otherwise from old time members unwilling or unable to write articles themselves. I know that Phil has written articles summarizing what was contained in a previous issue covering the same species, I liked these articles and they could be expanded (hell, I'd even write these if it would get me a free backissue). Put together a list of what species people are actually growing here, along with photos of people's plants (you know that Bill would do drive-by's to get these for free). This stuff could take up lots of pages with photos and barely any text (species and location)...and I'd find it valuable and enjoyable to look through. How about a "featured garden" article for those issues covering species where you don't get many articles. Just photos and an interview. I bet even some people who say they have no time to help might go to a great garden with a digital recorder, do a tour and record a question-answer session, then someone just needs to transcribe it. Just get the journal back out there and I think a new crop of people will get inspired to actually contribute.

Matt

Edited July 8, 2008 by Matt in SD

[elHoagie]

Matt,

Since I'm the one who solicited an article from you, I probably should have given you an explanation a long time ago. Sorry about that. Anyway, your article is great, and it will definitely be published. The problem is that we weren't able to get enough Licuala/Pinanga/Kerriodoxa articles to publish a journal, so that issue has been moved back. I think it's currently third or fourth in line.

I have been terrible in keeping people updated who have given me articles, and I'm extremely sorry to all of you. I barely have enough free time to perform the job I've been doing with the journal for about three years now, and I just don't seem to have the time to keep up with all the other things I've helped out with on a limited basis (like article solicitation and follow-up). Like a couple of you have mentioned, producing a journal is a job for someone who is retired (or a machine like Bo), because I can only help on a limited basis thanks to my full time+ job. Not to stereotype, but the problem is that most of our society members who are retired have ZERO computer skills, and so the job ends up being done by younger people who don't have much free time.

I know it's frustrating to write an article and then wait a REALLY long time to see it in print. I don't blame you for giving up on writing anything else. I play a small part in producing the journal, and even with my considerable clout and influence some of the things I wrote two years ago still aren't published. This is one of the problems with having a feature topic for each issue, you want to save each article for the topic it fits with. But, by doing this the authors tend to get discouraged and pissed off (deservedly so). I'm not sure what the best answer is. Probably better communication between us and the authors, which I hope will happen.

Also, I've seen a couple posts where people are talking about their article being accepted or rejected for publication. As far as I know, we never reject anything, as long as it has some relevance to palms. We may edit it, but we won't reject an article. Unless we start receiving hundreds of articles all of a sudden. That said, it may take a while to publish because we're trying to fit it into the appropriate journal.

One last thing. Like Kim mentioned, I don't think it's possible to have two membership tiers (with journal and without). The cost to print 2000 journals is not much different than the cost to print 20 journals, so the society would not save money by having "non-journal" members.

One more last thing, which I have to laugh about to stop from crying. We sent the latest issue to the printer last week, only to find out that they went out of business (probably because they haven't made money on the PSSC journal for almost a year...). Anyway, Chris Stevens has been busting her ass for the past week to fix this mess and find a new printer, and I think the issue will be printed this week thanks to her efforts. Sorry again to all our members for yet another delay, it's been long enough already.

[bgl]

Jack,

This response is probably completely redundant, since I'm sure you already know this, but the number one priority - BY FAR - is communication. Whether you have bad news or good news, anyone who has written an article should be kept informed of what's going on and when they can expect their article to be published. You're going to lose all credibility if deadlines are constantly being pushed back AND you're not keeping the contributors informed of what's going on. People can deal with bad news if they're informed of what's happening. That being said, when I approached Chris in Costa Rica and asked her about the status, guess what? She asked me if I could rewrite the Pinanga/Kerriodoxa article and split it in two. I was NOT impressed! Nor am I interested in doing this. If after a full year of hearing absolutely nothing I'm asked to rewrite something because you guys can't get your act together, well, NOT GOOD! I'm not taking this out on you, since you're the messenger, but trust me - this kind of arrangement is definitely a two way street. The contributor lives up to his or her part by writing an article & maybe taking photos. You (=the PSSC) must live up to your part by doing what you said you would in the first place. That means sticking to deadlines, no matter what. Ignoring your contributors is NOT a good way of running things and it WILL backfire. The PSSC needs to get its priorities in order if you want to see the Palm Journal flourish again. And I'd love to see that happen.

Bo-Göran

[RainForestt Robert]

Jack, I think the PSSC needs to do away with focusing on one group of palms. When there are not enough articles on that particular subject then there is a mad scramble to find enough content to justify a particular issue. Interesting content, regardless, will always be welcome.

How about focusing on new gardens like yours and MattyB's? Check back over time. Photo op on P. Sullivan's place. We don't know what will happen over there in a few years. Biennial news. Exodus of PSSC members to Hawaii. Importing palms from FL. News from Australia. Right there you have the bones for a journal without having a ton of people giving Licuala articles, which you can still include in a section called Focus On. Oh yeah, get Ryan to be a regular contributor, busy as he is, and kudos, rather than bricks will come your way.

One more brick. When last I was a member, I was told that membership was for a calendar year. If you joined in May you had to pay a premium to get the back issues, otherwise you only received future issues. For me this was a non starter. Penalizing members like myself to receive the journal, the only reason to join, is like a slap to the face. Makes you feel like a second class citizen.

Robert

[palmazon]

I agree with elHoagie/RainForestt Robt - focusing on a particular genus tends to be a limiting factor; even the IPS journal 'mixes it up' with general interest articles, horticultural practices, etc.

I guess it isn't surprising, nearly everyone posting in this thread has contributed an article/articles to the Journal - I hope it lives up to the mounting suspense we've created.

[Phil]

Group,

This is a very important issue to those of us on the Board of the PSSC. Gary and Len's complaints are valid and we realize that a shortage of journals does not encourage Members to rejoin. The Editorial staff is working hard to attempt to rectify the problem. Gone are the days of an unusual Editor like Bo or Kent who just cranked it out on a long weekend. Now we have a complicated system where many people are involved: scientific editing, proofing, color work, photographic layout, etc. etc. And, the final product is much "better". We've talked as a Board about going back to the old days with less size, precision and beauty. For now, we're trying to uphold the quality of the Journal as you've recently seen it. We appreciate the gracious tolerance of people like Bill and the acceptance of those who would join just for the meetings. But, there are many members for whom the Journal is the valuable product of joining. And, we desperately want to satisfy them as well. I'm not on the Editorial staff, but there are people volunteering a lot of time to keep everyone happy and get out the journal. Time will tell which direction the Journal will go. But, it's not that the Board hasn't been listening to members like Gary.

Phil Bergman

[Gtlevine]

Thank you Phil, I hope you and the rest of the board get this fixed. A fellow palm society member was at my house a couple weeks ago and was asking if I got the last journal. I had to think, then we went through all my journals and I thought I lost the last three because I realized I could not find a last journal. I'm kind of like Bo in that if I give a deadline or if I say I will show up at a certain time, I will be there to the minute come hell or high water, so I just began to stew thinking about how this thing could have gone down hill over the past couple of years and no one seemed to care. I just want to go to my mailbox when the journal is suppose to be there and see it actually there for a change. And as it turns out, I found out through this thread that many of our best and brightest are writing articles but they are not getting published. I kept hearing last year that the journal was not coming because the editors could not solicit articles, that is apparently not the case, so it is obviously an internal problem. The last suggestion may be valid, don't have a Genus specific edition, just mix it up and use the articles at hand and get the journal done.

Thanks

Gary

[Matt in SD]

Thanks Jack,

I was told once or twice, by you and Chris I think, that the issue was pushed back because there wasn't enough content. That was part of my point in the last paragraph above and Robert was also suggesting a similar concept. If you don't have enough specific content for a particular journal, just fill it with extra photos of the relevent plants especially if they are growing in SoCal, garden tours, interviews, summary of previous journals covering the same plants...just put palm related stuff in there (photos!) and people I think will be happy with the issue.

I know the plant group themed issues is limiting, but I think at least when possible this format should be kept up. I really like having "Dypsis issue" that I can go back to as a reference for example. But maybe one issue will have to have "tropical/marginal palms" which would include pinanga, kerriodoxa, licuala, johannesteijmannia, areca etc... Honestly, it seems odd to me that there as an issue with the broad theme "palms for the desert areas" which covered a LOT of palm territory, and all of SoCal is a desert this seems like a huge topic. And then there is an issue on only Pinanga/Kerriodoxa/Licuala, which I think predictably not a lot of people are growing here succcessfully.

The quality and content of the journal will go up and down over time. I think everyone knows this, and most people will deal with a few issues that are photo heavy and weak on articles for a while. Don't let the past quality of the journal paralyze the people involved into not publishing or delaying publication because it's not "good enough". A couple relevent cliche's: "The perfect is the enemy of the good" and "something is better than nothing".

Matt

[Phil]

Matt,

I love your quote at the end. I sort of ally myself with the "something is better than nothing" camp, but one way or another, we'll make it through this.

Phil

[DoomsDave]

Phil, et al:

I agree that some of the past Palm Journals have been socko. When they've been.

Now, they're not being at all.

I urge again, to git 'r done. This isn't Vanity Fair, or Scientific American (or even, heaven forbid, the law review).

Focus on personal experiences, etc., and a lot of problems with science will disappear.

My ten cents.

[palmazon]

Excellent feedback; everyone attending the next PSSC meeting should arrive early and acquaint themselves with the director's board - if nothing else, it may provide better insight, understanding, or appreciation. I'm sure I'll get pilloried for the ensuing free-for-all...