Pauleen Sullivan's Kapoho property

[Walter John]

I'm with Kim on the price. I think they have dropped it quite a bit from where they first listed it at. Kapoho is a pretty expensive area with many $1million+ houses and there are two separate/buildable lots here. There are slightly larger homes for sale on 5 acre parcels that are over $1 million, but then there's a lot of stuff listed over there that is just not realisitic in this market. But while I don't think it's too far overpriced, they're going to have to really luck out to find a buyer anyways. The last I had heard, in lava zone 1, banks will not loan more than $300K. So whoever the lazy/or not lazy palm nut that wants to buy this place is, they won't need to worry about a monstrous house payment, they just need about $900K cash lying around. I am not a realtor nor a mortgage broker so any potential buyer should obviously check mortgage possibilities, but I have heard many times there are flat limits on max loans in LZ1.

I've been to the garden, and it really is amazing. It is by far the best garden to go to if you want to decide what palms you like best, what their true form is, how best to use them in a lansdscape etc... You can really see each plant in it's entirety with not distraction of surrounding stuff. My wife really liked it for this reason, and she had a list of the palms she most wanted after visiting (other garden's were just a total blur to her). The garden is a tremendous resource for us palm freaks to say the least, someone should go through there and photograph every palm with the ID for an addendum to Genera palmarum or something.

I'm curious about this general issue of long time palm nuts having to sell their places and hoping/expecting to get lots of money back on their hard work and expense in creating their garden. There is, as most of us know, a similar situation in SoCal where a famous palm garden is for sale at a really astronomical price. I can understand the sentiment of the owners that their places have had so much more work put into them than "comparable" properties in the area. And I personally think what these people have done is amazing and I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to see these places. But like Len said, how many "normal" people really find value in that work, and as Paul said, most palm growers want to do their own gardens. When I started my garden I was not a plant freak, and I expected that the work I was doing was a good investment that would more than pay for itself if we ever sold. But, the moment I went beyond the Home Depot selection and planted enough plants to say I had "canopy" I was fully aware of the fact that all further work on the garden would not be paid back in the event that we ever had to sell...it could even be considered a liability, most people don't want a high maintenance yard. I have no problem with this fact, and I think anyone creating a garden because they love the process and love the planes would feel the same way. I guess it doesn't hurt to try to sell for a extra high price, maybe they'll get lucky and stumble upon a rich palm nut that wants to buy something like this. But is there any precedence for a property like this to fetch well over the standard market value? I'm sure this is not the first time a property with millions of dollars spent and 1000's of hours of work put in towards a singular obsession that has gone for sale.

I do want to repeat...I love Paulene's garden and totally admire what she's done. I hope there is someone with money out there that sees this as a dream opportunity, it would be great for them and great for Paulene. It's just an issue I've thought about and I'm really curious what will happen to both this garden and the SoCal one that is for sale.

Matt

Thanks Matt for this, there's a lot of my own thoughts in there too as I did have my place on the market a couple of years ago but took it back off when a slump hit. Now, there's another opportunity to sell and now my yard is chockers with palms and now some bamboo as well. It will seem attractive to palm lovers but we are a very small minority around here so the price is not governed by the plantings but by the size of land and number of bedrooms in the dwelling. I can guaranttee that the buyer will instantly mow down many of the palms, so to save my pain I will try not to make a return visit once I sell and move out of town.

Wouldn't it be grand if Pauleens property could be acquired by a plant heritage type organisation so all would be maintained for the future and organisations like IPS could be involved. We could turn it into an accommodation/learning/training retreat. IPS needs a very wealthy generous member with foresight and he is needed now. New owners might turn it into a golf course. I suppose you could keep the palms for that, "5 iron over the Carpoxylon, swoosh"

[Gileno Machado]

Hummmm..Dream garden it is...

I have a couple of questions though:

1) Doesn't the lava rock gravel absorb too much heat in full sun so that the warmth of the ground could damage younger seedlings? I know it rains a lot at this place and this could help to cool off a little bit. I ask this because at my place on the beach the only seedling that can stand the heat reverberation of the bare sand is the coconut, and still, it grows better when we mulch the area nearby.

2) What incredibly beautiful palm is this one? Marojejya?

[Gileno Machado]

Oops, it didn't work. I couldn't attach the picture copied from the slideshow, but anyway, it is a beautiful solitary palm with almost entire and ascending leaves, resembling a Rhopalostylis...

[bgl]

Kim,

You wrote: "Lazy? Are you kidding? I look at that property and see WORK written all over it."

Wow, you're challenging my entire life philosophy! Here I'm thinking that if I enjoy doing something, then it can't possibly be work! And based on that definition I havn't worked a day in my life since I gradated from school at the age of 16 (48 years ago!). And now you're telling me that I've been wrong all these years? I'm devastated and traumatized. Well, at least for the rest of the day!

Often when we have visitors here, and we walk around the garden, I get the comment "and all the work that has gone into this". And I guess I can't deny that I get a certain amount of satisfaction by responding "that's the amazing thing - there's absolutely no work involved!". And now you're saying I have to reconsider this clever reply?

Bo-Göran

PS - Gileno - if you're referring to the first photo in the 15th row from the top, that is indeed a Marojejya darianii. The next photo is a Pelagodoxa.

And BTW, the palms seem to do just fine in the black cinder. I have been amazed at how well some rainforest palms will grow at Pauleen's place, despite the fact that they are out in full blazing sun and planted in the black cinder.

[Kim]

Kim,

You wrote: "Lazy? Are you kidding? I look at that property and see WORK written all over it."

Wow, you're challenging my entire life philosophy! Here I'm thinking that if I enjoy doing something, then it can't possibly be work! And based on that definition I havn't worked a day in my life since I gradated from school at the age of 16 (48 years ago!). And now you're telling me that I've been wrong all these years? I'm devastated and traumatized. Well, at least for the rest of the day!

Often when we have visitors here, and we walk around the garden, I get the comment "and all the work that has gone into this". And I guess I can't deny that I get a certain amount of satisfaction by responding "that's the amazing thing - there's absolutely no work involved!". And now you're saying I have to reconsider this clever reply?

Bo-Göran

So said the Bionic Swede. We've all read about how you made your paths. I would classify that as physical labor, love it or not! Sorry Bo, an eleven-acre farm, whether palms or garbanzo beans, it's still a farm, and farming is hard work. (Go ahead, ask me how I know.) Now one or two acres, that's a garden, and gardening isn't really work. Sorry to have traumatized you, please don't let my point of view change your self-delusions. But really, I'm surprised at you, fibbing to your visitors like that.

[bgl]

Kim,

Well, life is full of surprises! And I think I'll go back to being self-delusional. Much more fun than facing the harsh reality of actual work!

BUT, I maintain it's all in your outlook. The irony of my life is this: BEFORE I graduated from school all those years ago I actually worked at various nurseries during the summer (to get money for a camera, vacation spending etc.), and that was definitely very hard labor. From 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. Pulling weeds out in a vast open field was definitely not fun, and with a supervisor who watched us like a hawk I felt like I was in the gulag. And from the age of 9... (had to tell them I was 12, since that was the minimum working age at the time!). After doing that every summer for many years I KNEW what hard work was like and I had no desire to EVER see any weeds again. And now after all these years, I'm happily pulling weeds left and right, and actually find it satisfying. Don't get me wrong - if given a choice, I'd rather not do it because I could be doing other, more constructive, things!

Bo-Göran

Anyway - I think I've veered enough off topic here, so back on track again: Paul brought up an excellent point: that one of the most enjoyable aspects of landscaping is the actual planning and creation. BUT, whoever ends up buying Pauleen's 11 acres will have the best of both worlds. They will both have a beautiful, established, garden, which can still be "tweaked" quite a bit, depending on what preferences the new owner may have, AND four acres just waiting to be landscaped and planted. How many here happens to have an extra four acres just lying around??

[_Keith]

How many here happens to have an extra four acres just lying around??

I am guessing about the same number of people that have $1.2M lying around for a new palm garden in Hawaii.

[rozpalm]

Well I showed my wife the pictures of the property and let her know it was for sale. She is a realtor and her only comment was, the house is so small. My wife is not into palms like I am and to her all the trees just mean massive amounts of work. I told her she should look at this as an investment in both land and palm trees and with that she shook her head and left the room. Of course I didn't tell her it costs $1.2m either.

[redant]

What would an 11 acre spread in coastal south fl cost. Jupiter Farms (much less desirable then HI) is about $250k for 1.25 acres, with no house in the better areas. Of course we only have to worry about wild fires, hurricanes and tornadoes, no boiling hot rock flowing through the living room.

[Pivi]

now, commercials!

we'll be wright back.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Pivi

[Gtlevine]

I actually have a similar view to what was brought up, the joy for me is planning the garden and planting it myself. My garden is by no means the greatest garden out there, but I would not trade it for any of them. I have sweat blood for a long time creating my garden and that is where the real joy lies. If I had Pauleens, I would have to dig out palms and move many more. Then I would have to plant tropical trees and other plants I like. I would prefer to buy a property with nothing on it for a cheaper price and start from scratch.

I take it all back, I can move Bo's furniture out and mine in. Would not need to touch the garden.

Gary

[bgl]

What's wrong with my furniture?

[BS Man about Palms]

Wait Gary, you would move a palm?.......

Oh My mistake, I thought you were saying you would "only move one palm"... THATS why I was confused....

[BS Man about Palms]

Bo, do you think any D. "white stem" ended up at Pauleens?

I know she had one .

Bo- did you miss this question earlier?

(Thanks Bob, for your input)

[bgl]

No, I didn't miss the question. Unfortunately, I just don't know the answer. And there are other people here on the Forum who probably know Pauleen's garden better than me (Jerry, you've got to come out of hiding! )

[Palm Guy]

OK I'm now accepting donations for the Michael Ferreira Acquiring Pauleen's Property Fund (MFAPP). I accept cheques, credit cards and palm seeds.

Wow...Whoever bags that property will be a happy camper and hopefully he/she is a palm lover.

[Mark@PalmBeach]

Matt

Thanks Matt for this, there's a lot of my own thoughts in there too as I did have my place on the market a couple of years ago but took it back off when a slump hit. Now, there's another opportunity to sell and now my yard is chockers with palms and now some bamboo as well. It will seem attractive to palm lovers but we are a very small minority around here so the price is not governed by the plantings but by the size of land and number of bedrooms in the dwelling. I can guaranttee that the buyer will instantly mow down many of the palms, so to save my pain I will try not to make a return visit once I sell and move out of town.

Wouldn't it be grand if Pauleens property could be acquired by a plant heritage type organisation so all would be maintained for the future and organisations like IPS could be involved. We could turn it into an accommodation/learning/training retreat. IPS needs a very wealthy generous member with foresight and he is needed now. New owners might turn it into a golf course. I suppose you could keep the palms for that, "5 iron over the Carpoxylon, swoosh"

There is an organization called the Garden Conservancy whose mission is to preserve significant heritage gardens for the public to enjoy. The Ruth Bancroft Estate in Walnut creek California was one of the first projects. I believe it is close to be self-supporting. I am not sure if this property fits their profile, or where funds would come from to buy it, but it would be amazing for it to be under control of some preservation group like the Garden Conservancy.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

As many have mentioned , the love of creating a palm based gardens has been a joy to many of us and as we are aware in most cases, it does not add value to a property. However it does something more important, it gives us all an oportunity to keep these species going as they disappear in habitat. Sharing seed with as many as possible is a great way of achieving this, The best of growers in the most suitable place for each species, they would be the most successful carers of the genetec bio diversity. some share as much as possible, unfortunaely many do not make the effort, please encourage those who have rare species to pick the seed and send it on for the next generations to enjoy. The real value of the collections are for the species to survive. So ask yourself "who have i sent seed to" If the answer is "no one" Take a moment to reflect about the difference you can make.

regards

colin

[jdapalms]

Bo, I'm peeking in here once in a while. Bill, the answer to your question is there is no Dypsis sp white stem at the Sullivan garden, this would be a great place to plant one.

Jerry

[Terry Sullivan]

Ok, that was a beautiful slidehow of the property...

One question... Why aren't there any weeds?

That would be because of ... Loyld Foster ...

An 85 year old man who showed me ' The Way " in 1991 ...

Aloha ... Terry

[Terry Sullivan]

Hummmm..Dream garden it is...

I have a couple of questions though:

1) Doesn't the lava rock gravel absorb too much heat in full sun so that the warmth of the ground could damage younger seedlings? I know it rains a lot at this place and this could help to cool off a little bit. I ask this because at my place on the beach the only seedling that can stand the heat reverberation of the bare sand is the coconut, and still, it grows better when we mulch the area nearby.

2) What incredibly beautiful palm is this one? Marojejya?

No Problem with the heat and seedlings ... Most of the palms ... germinate and grow under the parent ...

if the seeds are covered with a little cinder ... Aloha ... Terry

[Terry Sullivan]

Aloha All ...

If you have any questions on the palms or property situation ...

Please ask me ...

I'll try to answer all about the palms or the property itself ...

Kapoho is a Wonderful Area and the place is a very good beginning ...

a place like this is never done ... yes it's work ... yet the hardest is done ...

One can play Musical palms with any palm under 15 foot talk with just our tractor scoop ...

We have brought in over 2000 dump trucks of cinder ... which makes it a unique place ...

for many reasons ... in it's area ... and also adds to the cost ...

Probably No one will ever do this again ... Cinder has become over 3 times the cost ...

no one is selling the quality black cinder ... if you can get it ... for under $ 350 a truck load ...

Nursery People drool when seeing the quality and amount of our cinder ...

One can add and change this place easier than any other place in this area ...

because of this cinder base ...

i know ... I've done it ...

Other tropicals can be added between what exist ...

A sealing wax nursery would be what i would be focusing on ...

if i was staying ...

i have already started about 30,000 seedlings ...

About 1000 are already in 3 gal. containers ...

Kapoho is a warmer area and they repond to the heat ...

Most all the palms go to seed quicker because of the heat ...

and in general grow faster ... given the same other factors [ my opinion ]

All the palms are on a drip system for drier periods ...

Some need it ... most don't ... after getting established

All the comments i read ... Positive and negative have validity ... but also some assumptions

are being made ...

Please if you questions ask me ...

Either on this forum or at monkibus@pacbell.net or 805-642-0756

I'm sorry for the comercial side of this ...

but any of you who have been in the I.P.S. very long ...

would know my mom deserves some considerations beyond the normal ...

Aloha ... Terry

P.S.

i leave on a 2 week vacation on 6-27 ...

[Terry Sullivan]

Bo, I'm peeking in here once in a while. Bill, the answer to your question is there is no Dypsis sp white stem at the Sullivan garden, this would be a great place to plant one.

Jerry

Hey Jerry is this white stem Dysis ...

what we have been calling Dysis ' Bef ' ...

the one you have been getting seeds off of ???

Aloha Terry

[bgl]

Terry,

Thanks for joining us here! I know your input will be greatly appreciated. And the Dypsis sp. bef is a different palm.

Bo-Göran

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Ok, that was a beautiful slidehow of the property...

One question... Why aren't there any weeds?

That would be because of ... Loyld Foster ...

An 85 year old man who showed me ' The Way " in 1991 ...

Aloha ... Terry

I want to be schooled in "The Way"

(Something is telling me I just asked for a BIG lesson in diligence! )

Terry it sure does look fantastic there. Thanks for getting on palmtalk and sharing with us. Welcome.

[RainForestt Robert]

Terry, you have a really fantastic garden there. Good luck with it. I hope that the new owner appreciates it and does not "destroy" it.

Robert

[jdapalms]

Terry, I bet you have been lurking around on this group for a while sucking up all of this palm info. How's your mom doing?

The Dypsis bef is different than the white stem as Bo mentioned. Have fun on your vacation and we will see you some time in August.

Jerry

[TikiRick]

Welcome Terry.....the legacy continues!

What an incredible piece of paradise. I wish I have the $$ to make that move and I would...in a South Florida minute.

[Terry Sullivan]

Welcome Terry.....the legacy continues!

What an incredible piece of paradise. I wish I have the $$ to make that move and I would...in a South Florida minute.

Thanks TikiRick ...

Not so sure about the legacy ...

more like the reluctant son ... going along with mom's dreams ...

and of course dad's also ... He was a TotalPalmNut ...

Marty Darin said when dad passed on in 1975 ...

He was the best grower in the society ...

I would say probably was one of the best ...

i saw all the things he tried back in the early days ... 60's

in his green houses and germinating rooms ...

He was a LaymanPalmGrowingScientist ...

They started a nursery in 1954 called Topical Gardens ... In Ventura CA.

By 1957 we had a 15 acre growing ground of palms ...

mostly Queens and Wasingtonias ... guest who was one of the child laborers ???

Aloha ... Terry

[LJG]

Terry, what was the reasoning behind the cinder concept? I have an idea but am just curious as it fascinates me to the level this work was done. Anytime I see photos online of palms, you can not miss they are your Moms. They always stand out in the cinder in that gallery style set up.

[TikiRick]

Terry,

You may remember Paul Drummond, a close friend of mine and your mother's as well. He passed on last year, but always spoke favorably of all of the trips taken all over the globe with your mother. I loved to hear the stories (some of which were certainly exaggerated!) of all of the past Biennials and trips to Southern CA to see your mom.

I hope things work out well for you, your mom, and the Kapoho farm.

Whatever happened to the place that was once your parent's growing fields of 15 acres in SoCal? Let me guess....a strip mall and endless homes.

[Terry Sullivan]

Terry,

You may remember Paul Drummond, a close friend of mine and your mother's as well. He passed on last year, but always spoke favorably of all of the trips taken all over the globe with your mother. I loved to hear the stories (some of which were certainly exaggerated!) of all of the past Biennials and trips to Southern CA to see your mom.

I hope things work out well for you, your mom, and the Kapoho farm.

Whatever happened to the place that was once your parent's growing fields of 15 acres in SoCal? Let me guess....a strip mall and endless homes.

Yes ... mom has some stories ... like being out in her wheel chair ... at the end of a road ... in the jungle alone ... with 20 natives circling around her ... type stories ... [ she had the presents of mind to take a picture ] One native actually came up and pushed the chair up yhe road and then back ...

My dad and the other two guys ... were out in the jungle hunting for a certain palm seed ... some how mom got the natives to understand enough ... that they brought her seeds of the palm ... while the 3 guys came back empty handed

As far as the growing grounds ... Houses on that property ...

Thanks for your good wishes ...

Aloha ... Terry

[Terry Sullivan]

Terry, what was the reasoning behind the cinder concept? I have an idea but am just curious as it fascinates me to the level this work was done. Anytime I see photos online of palms, you can not miss they are your Moms. They always stand out in the cinder in that gallery style set up.

Aloha Len ...

The property was basically hard lava ...

so we needed something for the palm roots to grow well ...

faster than a more natural route ... mom was 70 years old when we started this project ...

i was doing everything i could ... to grow fast beautiful palms for her to see ... experience ...

i had seen a old man do the cinder trip ...

at 85 years old he kept 5 acres weedless himself ...

It was amazing given all the other properties around him ...

My parents did landscaping during the nursery business years ...

Using black shale mounded in island shapes ...

so the black cinder was a no brainer ... mom loved it ... and of course paid for it ...

If you have ever tried planting in hard lava vs. cinder

you would choose cinder if you could ... i'm skinny, weak and lazy ...

One of the best features about the cinder concept ...

it lessens the mosquitoes by 90 % or more ...

The less clothes the better for me ...

Well ... these were the basic thoughts behind the cinder ...

The place would have never really got going without it ...

and that they put the county waterline 10 ft from our front gate ... in 1994

That extra water helps in Kapoho when the palms are getting established ...

At first it was a black desert with little stick plants ... with the 20 - 22 ft spacing between palms ...

I was trying to get a high\low ... spaced a certain way ... look ...

first planting taller palms ... then coming back in between with the medium size and then small palms ...

It's not easy when ... the info on the palms is weak on diameter of head size ... growth rate ... etc.

given how variable palms are in different conditions ...

Now it's filling in the way it is ...

It has an atmospheric FEEL you can't get from the pictures ...

After 4:30 pm ... no other place i would like to be except walking that property ...

Full Moon shining on Black Cinder with Palm Silhouette ... WOW !!!

The place is still immature ... also

If i was staying i would now start adding color plants and some islands of ground cover ...

The conditions are there to support that now ...

i was basically going over there 4 times a year to work the place ...

Low maintenance on a big place isn't easy ... the look of the place had something to do with ...

keeping the maintenance lower ... also

Aloha ... Terry

[spockvr6]

Terry-

All I say say about the work youve done is....FANTASTIC.

The "look" of that black cinder is absolutely perfect. In fact, I am trying to duplicate that here. Obviously, finding that type of stone here is somewhat of a challenge. The closest I have found so far is a lava rock and it looks like that will also be nearly impossible to get in anything but a maroonish red color. I am told that black used to be available, but not so much anymore. Black is the look I want though as it will contrast stunningly with the white shell walkways I have.

[spockvr6]

One of the best features about the cinder concept ...

it lessens the mosquitoes by 90 % or more ...

This is something I have wondered about Hawaii (especially the wetter areas).

Are the mosquitos really bad? Is it impossible to go outside without getting mauled by them?

And, what is the general climate in Kapoho? Is it about like Hilo? Is it warm enough for air conditioning?

[redant]

"If i was staying i would now start adding color plants and some islands of ground cover ...

The conditions are there to support that now ..."

Unless it's to personal, why are you not staying, I'd never leave other then to gather food and supplies.

[bgl]

I'll take the liberty of addressing the mosquito issue, since we certainly are more affected by them here. We're about 5-6 miles inland from Kapoho and at the 880 ft elevation. We're in the middle of a rainforest, and because of the elevation we probably have cloud cover 75% of the time. Kapoho may only have cloud cover 25-30% of the time (Terry, feel free to correct me, I'm just making an educated guess!). The difference in environment in itself will mean more mosquitoes here. However, this is something that's very individual. Some people are much more sensitive. The mosquitoes don't really bother me, and I never use "Off" or any other anti-mosquito product and I can be deep in the underbrush for hours on end without any problems. BUT, we've had visitors here who got badly bitten in just a short walk. Comparing the mosquito issue with other places I can say with certainty that they are no worse here than, for instance, Florida, where we lived for 7 years. And, after experiencing clouds of 10,000 mosquitoes or more in northern Scandinavia during the summer anything here is like comparing a head-on collision with an elephant versus one with a mouse....

About the weather - Hilo airport gets an average of 129 inches of rain per year. I believe Kapoho is right around 80-85, so it's a sunnier area. Both are at sea level.

[LJG]

Bo, I think the reason is your visitors shower. Soap attracts mosquito's.

[LJG]

Terry, pretty incredible if you ask me.

When you say it is right for understory stuff, is that because the cinder breaks doing over time to form somewhat like a soil? Sorry for the questions, just curious on how the cinder works over time.

[BS Man about Palms]

Bo, I'm peeking in here once in a while. Bill, the answer to your question is there is no Dypsis sp white stem at the Sullivan garden, this would be a great place to plant one.

Jerry

Hey Jerry is this white stem Dysis ...

what we have been calling Dysis ' Bef ' ...

the one you have been getting seeds off of ???

Aloha Terry

Thanks for checking Jerry.

Terry fine work. I have only met you briefly at some So Cal Palm tour/meetings. If you are curious about the D."White Stem", look here: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12239

Bill