tall Acrocomia totai but young

[merrill]

Hi, Krishnara...:

Many years ago I tried to cross Queen and A. totai several times. When you have a near miss in hybridization, you may get fruit w/no endosperm, just an empty shell. No shell, no fruit, nothing in this case. Not any sign of compatibility.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Tala]

This may seem like a strange question but what are the major differences between A. totai and a queen palm other than that running into this one could kill you?

the totai palms are a much tougher plant. The aculeata looks very much like a robust queen palm, they have the longer fronds that arch & bend. The totai fronds are shorter and straight, not much bend. From a distance they can look like a Queen but the closer you get you can easily see they're not. The guys farther north than me can say for sure but I think totai is more cold hardy than typical Syagrus queens, and can grow without much care (water, fert.) at all. For instance you can put Syagrus in a concrete parking lot, in a few yrs they will look horrible; a totai in the same place will just keep on chuggin.

I wish I could put up a pic of mine; I just trimmed all the dead fronds off it, used a double-ladder up against the stem and stood at the top. But the angle was so tight I had to use a belt to wrap around the stem and me so I could lean back and cut. I should have taken a pic of the six inch spikes I had to pull out of the belt when I was finished!

Merrill - I keep waiting for someone to combine all of the Butiinae palms into a single genus (ala Dypsis). Acrocomia are closer to Aiphanes, Bactris & such, they have a diff. chromosome count than Syagrus, Butia, etc.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Tala

[ron@springhammock]

Here are some pictures I snapped a few years back of the Dade City gru-gru.

Not the prettiest, and the whack prunning job didn't help. That's a Sabal to the right.

Eric, I've seen the A. totai in Leu Garden's but I can't spot any in the neighborhood, what streets are they on?

[merrill]

QUOTING Tala:

Merrill - I keep waiting for someone to combine all of the Butiinae palms into a single genus (ala Dypsis). Acrocomia are closer to Aiphanes, Bactris & such, they have a diff. chromosome count than Syagrus, Butia, etc.

END QUOTE

Hi, Tala: As I remember, Jubaea has precedence over any generic name in the Butiinae; wouldn't that be a huge expanson of Jubaea,, to include all Butiinae?

Many TX for your comment on chromosome # of the spiny relatives; I was racking my brain to remember.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Eric in Orlando]

Here are a few others I have photos of;

A. totai downtown orlando, trunk covered in vines

A. totai at Edison Gardens in Ft. Myers

at McKee Gardens in Vero Beach (there are several at the entrance)

[Eric in Orlando]

Eric, I've seen the A. totai in Leu Garden's but I can't spot any in the neighborhood, what streets are they on?

[merrill]

Hi, Eric:

That totai at Edison's is a real Beaut!

merrill

[edbrown_III]

I was just checking out the thread on the Spanish forum, posts 3 and 4 demonstrate the sdlg differences I was referring to earlier.

Ed, I went ahead and emailed you a pic of the totai sdlgs and a pic from 2 yrs ago of my palm. Feel free to post here (or use however you see fit).

D

Tala,

Dave good to hear f rom you... I will resize the photos you sent and post afterthis. Note what the South american is calling A. aculeata is from NE argentina and in the area one would suppose is totai... This is what was bothering me... posts 3 &4 show the bifid leaves .

All of mys plants from Mexic PR and Brsil had bifid leaves. Your post has the single leaves that Bernie wrote about in Palmeteer many years ago.

What we are calling the totai here in Florida is very interesting and pretty unique -- it may not be the same plant that the South americans are callign a totai. It would be interesting to differentiate all these plants.

Best wishes,

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Tala,

Dave heres a copy of the A. totais you poste to me. Note single seedlign leafs these contrast very much with the bifid seedlign leafs fromt the NE Argentine Acrcomia aculeata..

I will post a few of mine next message.

Best regards,

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Note full size A. totai of Talas

[Paul S]

I looked into the possibility of getting some of the cold hardy strain of Grugru palm into England a few years ago - Doug Keene (the last custodian of said palms, it seems) managed to get them to another nursery in Florida that exported to a UK nursery. To comply with our soil pest restrictions they had top be re-potted into a soil-less mix and, I imagine as a result of that disturbance, were were sadly stone dead by the time they got here. I say 'sadly' but suspect they were never going to be a starter - just not warm enough for long enough for them to grow over here - so maybe it was a good thing.

Anyway, I still have Doug's contact details and have just sent him an email to see if he is ok about my passing it on, if he still has totai etc.

[Tala]

Ed - thanx for posting the pics, maybe someday i will learn to. Yes this part. Acrocomia does seem to be unique, I would love to know what part of sou. Amer. they truly originate from. Any ideas?

Eric - can you get a pic of any newly germinated sdlgs palms? I would like to see if those are bifid or simple leafed. Also the totai on Washington Ave. (just west of OBT) is still going strong. A portion of the stem is vine covered but someone is at least keeping it off the canopy. I am often tempted to jump that fence and go look at it close up.

Ron - those Dade City palms look like mine. They really haven't been over-trimmed, as soon as the fronds droop below horizontal they turn brown. One way to culturally ID the cold hardy strain???

Paul - I can't help you w/ plants just yet but perhaps with seeds. My palm originated from Doug's, I have a buttload of seeds just sitting here in on the ground. I just potted up 17 sdlgs, they finally germinated after 3 yrs of waiting. Eventually I will have a lot of plants but this is a project just at it's beginning.

[ron@springhammock]

Eric, thanks for the detailed instructions. I was easily able to find the one in Leu Gardens, but still can't spot the ones in the neighborhood. I cruised around the streets looking up for them, but everything looks like queens to me. Clearly, you have an eye for spotting them and I do need to get a new prescription for glasses.

The Dade City Acrocomia had a couple of strap leafed seedlings below it, not bifid, so I guess it's what's expected. They also had a slightly greyish tint to them.

[Paul S]

Dave - you have mail!

[Eric in Orlando]

Eric - can you get a pic of any newly germinated sdlgs palms? I would like to see if those are bifid or simple leafed. Also the totai on Washington Ave. (just west of OBT) is still going strong. A portion of the stem is vine covered but someone is at least keeping it off the canopy. I am often tempted to jump that fence and go look at it close up.

[b]

I haven't seen any more seedlings come up and don't remember what the leaves looked like.

I know the one off Washington. There used to be an older one there that died after the '89 freeze from ganoderma. That one sproted in the early mid 90s. That one in the photo I posted with the vines on the trunk is gone now. The lot was bulldozed. It was on Hillcrest St. a block south of Colonial and in between Hampton and Bumby Ave, next to where the Kobes was that burnt down. The was a tall old one there that survived '89 and it died from ganoderma. Seedlings kept sprouting but they came up in a ligustrum hedge and here alsways sheared or cu out. That one survived being sheared for years then someone decided to let it grow on thru. There is another a few blocks away behind some townhome, I will have to find it and photo it.

There is also another over at the Orlando Garden club, near the Science Center, between the Orl Museum of art and FL Hospital. It is along Rollins St. and is about 5ft tall. It is in shade and I think it has hindered it as it has been there for years. It was also a seedling from an old palm that survived '89 but not ganoderma.

[Eric in Orlando]

Eric, thanks for the detailed instructions. I was easily able to find the one in Leu Gardens, but still can't spot the ones in the neighborhood. I cruised around the streets looking up for them, but everything looks like queens to me. Clearly, you have an eye for spotting them and I do need to get a new prescription for glasses.

The Dade City Acrocomia had a couple of strap leafed seedlings below it, not bifid, so I guess it's what's expected. They also had a slightly greyish tint to them.

I have a map below and marked where the palms areFor the neighbor hood go thru the curve where Forest turns into Corrine and make the first immediate left which is Meritt Park. Go to the next street which is Leu rd., go left,this curves into Forest, houses will be on left, Leu Gardens on right, the street goes to a cul-de-sac. The tall palm in the photo is growing between the 2nd and 3rd house from the cul-de-sac, right next to a laurel oak but has pushed up thru. Alo, same spot, look over into the back yards and you will see others coming up. I put red marks showing where these are. Several other houses had them but I noticed they have been removed. Also on the map is a red mark over at the Orlando Garden Club (by the Science Center) where that other one is.

[Eric in Orlando]

I saw this A. totai at Disney's Animal Kingdom yesterday. Sorry it is dark, it was getting ready to storm.

[edbrown_III]

Heres a clear shot of the PR A. aculeata very stout trunk. This tree saw 21F about 8 years ago so is reasonalbley cold hardy.

[edbrown_III]

Heres a view of the trunk ... I was shooting into sun on last post so the colors arent so good.

[edbrown_III]

Heres a post of the Brasilian A . aculeata south part of range where the Brasil books show A. totai occuring.

[edbrown_III]

heres a view of trunk its a little bit slimer than the A media

[edbrown_III]

Heres a few seeds that the tree has dropped recently

[Eric in Orlando]

Here are a couple of the seedling A. totai coming up in the neighbor's yards

[Eric in Orlando]

Also the totai on Washington Ave. (just west of OBT) is still going strong. A portion of the stem is vine covered but someone is at least keeping it off the canopy. I am often tempted to jump that fence and go look at it close up.

Dave, got a photo of this specimen today.

[SubTropicRay]

Great specimen Eric. It's arguably the fastest growing palm for our area.

[Tala]

yep Eric that is the one. Somebody is watching out for it because those vines never get up into the canopy. I like how you call those volunteer palms in the other pics "seedlings", as big as they already are. But I guess its true, they are young - like Ray mentions these are extraordinarily quick.

Are those eggs behind the seeds in that one pic? The seeds from my totai are small, almost completely round. Will get a pic later...

Edited July 10, 2008 by Tala

[Tampa Scott]

Has anyone noticed that the roots of A. aculeata also have thorns ? I found out the hard way when pulling weeds yesterday. At first I thought the thorns had fallen from the trunk, but the thorns are attached to the roots exposed to the air. It seems the only part of this palm that does not have thorns are its flowers and seed.

[Eric in Orlando]

Hi, Krishnara...:

Many years ago I tried to cross Queen and A. totai several times. When you have a near miss in hybridization, you may get fruit w/no endosperm, just an empty shell. No shell, no fruit, nothing in this case. Not any sign of compatibility.

Best Wishes, merrill

I was wondering about that. The A. totai in the photo below is growing right with 2 Syagrus romanzoffiana and one of the Syagrus and the Acrocomia are both flowering right now. I could smell the Acrocomia when I went by it. Wonder how much different a hybrid would look since both palms look very similar. The A. totai is on the left, the Syagrus on the right and there is another Syagrus behind that one.

[edbrown_III]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...mp;#entry253947

Dave and Eric ,

Check out this link, one of the rspondents shows some pictures of seedling Acrcomia totai with simple leaves.

Best regards,

Ed

[kelen]

I think there are four Acrocomia's species (or just varieties) in Brazil. I'm not expert but I like study and plant palms.

Acrocomia aculeata occurs in center and southeast of Brazil, this species have a big fruit and seeds, grow faster than A. totai, the seedlings leaves are always bifid and its trunk is covered for leaf base, in old palms too.

Acrocomia intumescens occurs in northeast of Brazil, this palm lose its leaf base like the other Acrocomias (except A. aculeata). The large trunk have a belly, sometimes there aren't spiny when old.

Acrocomia (media?? mexicana??? sclerocarpa??) is like A. intumescens without belly, the leaflet may be larger becouse the frond seems to be more full, the leave are more hooped. Occurs in the Amazon region.

Acrocomia totai occurs in southwest of Brasil (Mato Grosso do Sul), Argentina, and the palm has been introduced in Rio Grande do Sul (south of Brasil) and Goiás (throughout the roads). The fruits and seeds are smallest and the seedlings can born with bifid or single left. The leaftbases fall off tree when the leaves die. Is hardiest Acrocomias, seedlings take some grades of frost without damage.

Sorry for my bad english

[kelen]

Acroromia totai in Rio Grande do Sul - south of Brazil.

[kelen]

Acrocomia aculeata (Minas Gerais e São Paulo).

[edbrown_III]

Kelen,

Good to hear from you... You are postioned to make sense of the species . It looks like the bifid leaves in Central Florida you can relate to populations further south ( in South America). There are some A. aculeatas in the south of the range as

I have one from Pocone (near Cuiaba) and the fellow from Argentina ( Pindo) has some A. aculeata as well.

Much obliged for your posts.

Ed Brown

[Tala]

thanks Ed, and yes indeed thanks Kelen for your insights; I have wondered about the original origins of the Fla. totai palm, it would appear you have set us on the right path. The locales you noted would correspond to how cold hardy they are here. If you have any habitat pictures I would love to see them for comparison. The ones you posted above very much resemble my totai palm.

also some side notes on sdlgs - if the 1st leaf is damaged a 2nd leaf often appears bifid or about to split. Also when I dug up my sldgs from the ground several of them immediately sprouted a 2nd palm from the seed. With 3 pores there should be 3 embryos in each seed.

I made some notes for that post where the old monograph was posted but I can't find that thread. The descriptions in there are fascinating, neat how the crispa species has come full circle. Also his descriptions of totai were again a match for what I have growing here. So no reason at all that the totai surname cannot become a valid species to it's own. Paging your local botanist ...

Edited November 14, 2008 by Tala

[edbrown_III]

Kelen,

you and Dave really ought to organize these thoughts in an article for Principes--- I would if I had access to the data, mine is just some random information on A. aculeata in different parts of the range. The single leaves may make a good case for differentiating this as species. Kelen has sufficient locality data to relate this plant to A. totai range.

A. aculeata must over lap as the one I got from Pocone and the ones reported by Monica Moraes , Pindo and others fall in this A. aculeata like palm in the range of A. totai

Best regards,

Ed

[Alberto]

Some years ago I got seeds from what Loenzi call a.aculeata. some fruits from palms growing at high altitude in Minas gerais, also in north Paraná and from a palm that lorenzi call a.totai. they were all sown separately (in gound)and tagged. After a few years they finally germinated (tags were lost! ) and I couldn´t identify them. I planted the seedlings in plastic pots. after a few years now I noticed that 2 of my 8 pots felt down because the pots were round on the bottom......omething was pushing the bottom....

[Alberto]

First dry ´´not bifid´´strap leaves.

[Alberto]

When I opened the bag/pot I saw that acrocomia is a tillering palm and could also find a little ´´heel´´.

[Alberto]

Today I planted it in place of an ´´aroeira´´ (brazilian pepper) that was cut yesterday. It was like letting a bird escape from a cage....

[Tala]

Alberto, the bulb-like structure continues to grow, I have watched them bust open plastic pots and grow into the ground. Unfortunately this makes them about impossible to remove without killing the plant. This is why I grow all of my "tillering heel" palms (Sabal & Acrocomia especially) on concrete blocks

Do the areas Kelen mentioned - Mato Grosso do Sul, Argentina, introduced in Rio Grande do Sul (south of Brasil) and Goiás, do they form a close or similar pattern with areas Alberto has seen totai growing (high altitude in Minas gerais, also in north Paraná)? Are these areas the same - campo rupestre vs pantanal, or maybe chaco, pampas, caatinga, cerrado??? Do they exp. freezes/frost?

Has anyone else germinated any Acrocomia that has simple leaves instead of bifid? So far the totai palm appears to be the only one doing this. I have seen the other Acrocomia (the large aculeata) as well as the (formerly) Gastrococos crispa all come out bifid. Subsequently it would seem that these simple leaves that appear initially on totai seem to be a sure way to differentiate it from aculeata/others.