On the subject of manure

[_Keith]

A recent thread on Musa talked about using horse manure with good benefits to Musa. Who has experience with horse manure and other manures with palms or other plants as well?

And of course, snark always welcome in my threads. With a topic like that, who could resist.

[amazondk]

Keith,

There is a lot of openings for comment on this subject. I have normally been using chicken manure. It is in good supply here. My mother in law says that cornish hen manure is the best. But, then you have to find it. A favorite snack here are little cornish hen eggs, so it is available. The local Brazilian wisdom is that these little eggs are a great benefit to ones sexual stamina so they are consumed widely across the country. You will always find them available at Steak Houses in particular. Just a note on local culture in Brazil.

dk

[Brian]

Ive had excellent results using cow manure on my faster growing palms. I get it from a corral where they stock free ranging cattle. Its cheap and I can add it to my Coco's, Royals, and P. Pacificas without composting it. Be careful if you use manures, they can burn some palms if its not composted first. Its best to use when its composted to the point of looking like, and smelling like, dirt.

[PalmGuyWC]

Keith,

I wish I could find chicken manure, but the stuff they sell around here is so diluted with wood that there is not much nutrition in it. Horse litter is for free here if you go pick it up at one of the stables. They are happy to get rid of it. I only use the horse litter for mulch and to retain moisture as it too, doesn't have much nutrition and I sprinkle amonimun nitrate on it a couple of times a year to break down the wood shavings. I spread it thick, 6 or 7" and it smothers unwanted grass and it eventually settles to a couple of inches. I use granular slow release fertilizer about 3 times a growing season.

Dick

[Alicehunter2000]

Keith you sure picked a crappy topic to discuss. I've been reading through the posts and most of them are full of.......s.....um.... crap.

I would add my two cents.....but everyone knows I'm full of ......

Snark......you want it.....we got it.

[palmmermaid]

Keith,

Since I have my horses at home, I have a constant supply of good, clean manure. I use it in planting almost everything. I have never had a problem with it burning anything, even if it is only a few days from the source! It is lower in nitrogen than other manures. I use the small chips for bedding. These seem to break down much faster than the larger chips. I mix this in with the soil sometimes and also use it for mulch around acid loving plants - bananas, Cyrtostachis, anything that grows in a humousy soil. I put it on very thick - at least 6 inches.

I have more than I can use and usually have to pay someone to haul it away a couple of times a year. I can't give it away! I even offer to provide bags to put it in and no takers.

I would caution about using it from a large boarding barn, especially one that caters to show horses. You may find needles and all sorts of unsavory things in it. Sometimes the grooms and handlers just throw garbage in the manure pile.

I do give some away to friends who grow orchids and fancy chickens. He just piles it all in the chicken pen and the chickens break it down for him. Then he scrapes the remains up and spreads it on his yard. It is all very green! And he has great eggs!

[Kim]

So, Kitty, gardens in deep doo-doo is a good thing?

[MattyB]

Excellent topic! I just got my first load (get it?) of 10 yards of horse manure w/ stable shavings in it. It looks really good compared to my dry dirt. I'm in the process of moving it down the hill of death right now.....not an easy task. As far as Bananas go Keith, the more manure and organic you got the better. They love compost heaps and lots of water and fertilizer. They'll grow much better in the manure than just in dirt in my experience. I'm glad that Dick is recommeding to sprinkle some Ammonium Nitrate around to help break down the uncomposted wood. I was wondering. I'm a little worried about burning palms even though it's Horse manure which is supposed to be more mild as far as manure goes. So I'm using the expensive compost from the nursery to plant in and surround the palms base, then I'm spreading the manure around the ground outside of that. I'll take some pics after this weekend you guys won't believe what a difference it's making on the dry hillside. Great topic Keith!!!!!

[_Keith]

Cool replies. Keep it coming. I posted because I have an unlimited (from my standpoint) supply of cow manure at all stages of decomposition, from fresh out the cow to the barn floor, which is like dirt. I hear it is a little hotter than horse, but not nearly as hot as chicken.

I could probably find a source of horse manure, if there was a strong reason to use it over cow, but it would not be nearly as convenient as my father-in-law's small farm just down the road where the cows poop is.

More please, give me more cr@p responses, please.

[MattyB]

I've planted bananas straight in Steer manure that you buy at Home Depot. It's hot. It's actually better to mix in some dirt (clay) if it's hot and dry because it can dry out easily due to good drainage. Bananas love it.

[PalmGuyWC]

I should have mentioned......The horse litter is usually saturated with urea or urine and it's moist when I get it and it smells bad. It also attracts flys for about 3 or 4 days. After it's spread, I let it dry out for a couple of days, then I water it down for several hours to dilute the amonia, etc. I've never had anything burn. It is generally about 80% thin wood shavings and the rest manure. After all the manure has broken down, it is important to sprinkle it with Amonium nitrate or sulphate to break down the wood shavings. I don't expect much nutrition from it, but it does cut down on watering and smother the weeds, and it sort of defines a bed.

Another bonus........I never had toads here until the horse litter was hauled in. I'm sure the toads, or their eggs, came in with the litter. They are nice to have around because they eat bugs.

Dick

[TikiRick]

Here's yet another spin on the crap. I have a koi pond with a filter that I change weekly. I rinse off all of the koi muck right into the mulch as I am hosing it off. Afterwards, I then water in all of the fish waste further into the mulch. The palms immediately around the area appear to be healthier.....although it may be that they are just getting more water in general as well.

Anyone have any luck with Milorganite....(crap from the residents of Milwaukee)? Why Milwaukee? Does their sewage smell better?

[DoomsDave]

The great thing about manure is that it's full of bacteria, which means, with a little help from moisture, you can rot down lots of other [stuff] fast, like palm leaves, etc, that normally don't rot fast.

It also adds bacteria to the soil.

Like some bugs, some germs are good. A sterile world isn't livable for long.

It is best to compost it, though you can also dig new [fecal material] into the soil and let it fester a bit, then mix it up. Really helps to open up nasty clay.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I don't use mega-fauna doo doo, but I do use rabbit bedding. The Warden (I must try to refrain from that expression.).... My wife has a rabbit that uses a cubic foot or so of pine bedding a week. Not much by comparison, but it is what I use. The manure, or pellets, are mixed with the urine soaked pine chips and whatever food the rabbit knocked out of its dish. It is more like mulch with manure than manure with mulch. I have seen no ill effects and can only believe I am adding to the bio mass of the soil.

One added benefit is that I am getting all sorts of volunteer squashes, pumpkins and other UFO veggies, plus lots of sunflowers.

Jerry

[MattyB]

I should have mentioned......The horse litter is usually saturated with urea or urine and it's moist when I get it and it smells bad. It also attracts flys for about 3 or 4 days. After it's spread, I let it dry out for a couple of days, then I water it down for several hours to dilute the amonia, etc. I've never had anything burn. It is generally about 80% thin wood shavings and the rest manure. After all the manure has broken down, it is important to sprinkle it with Amonium nitrate or sulphate to break down the wood shavings. I don't expect much nutrition from it, but it does cut down on watering and smother the weeds, and it sort of defines a bed.

Another bonus........I never had toads here until the horse litter was hauled in. I'm sure the toads, or their eggs, came in with the litter. They are nice to have around because they eat bugs.

Dick

Thanks Dick. The stuff I got was moist and smelled of ammonia too. Moist is great for me. I've gone out and bagged up manure from people giving it away and it's usually just dried up manure sitting in a pile on dirt. When I've tried to spread it the round ball manure just rolls down the hill. This stuff is moist and broken down a bit. I'd estimate that it's about 10% manure solid briquettes, 70% broken down manure, and 20% wood shavings.

Here it is in a pile at the top of the hill.

[MattyB]

And here it is spread around as mulch. You can see the property line here. This is basically a before and after idea of what my property looked like. This is before I've watered it down at all. It gets darker when wet. It looks nice.

[Bennz]

I am trialing using differing percentages of cow manure both as fertiliser growing media, and so far have found that even 100% manure aged for a month or so is performing very well. Most of the expected problems of root burning and soil collapse are not occurring. I have also experimented with potting a seedling into cow manure less than 1 week old, without killing the palm (Archontophoenix).

My experiments are now moving towards avocados, cherimoyas, Acacia and Eucalyptus. My feelings are that any tree that will be repotted or planted within 6 month or so should be ok in a pure manure media. I am also experimenting with charcoal as the main buffer to keep the mix open.

I am in process of converting my beef operation to organic certification, and this is essential research for me, as I need a certified organic growing media for every tree I plant. The organic standards prevent uncomposted manure being placed around crop plants (anything for harvesting food), but I have also noticed manure being exceptionally good with bananas, even in my cool climate.

[palmmermaid]

So, Kitty, gardens in deep doo-doo is a good thing?

Absolutely!

[palmmermaid]

I should have mentioned......The horse litter is usually saturated with urea or urine and it's moist when I get it and it smells bad. It also attracts flys for about 3 or 4 days. After it's spread, I let it dry out for a couple of days, then I water it down for several hours to dilute the amonia, etc. I've never had anything burn. It is generally about 80% thin wood shavings and the rest manure. After all the manure has broken down, it is important to sprinkle it with Amonium nitrate or sulphate to break down the wood shavings. I don't expect much nutrition from it, but it does cut down on watering and smother the weeds, and it sort of defines a bed.

Another bonus........I never had toads here until the horse litter was hauled in. I'm sure the toads, or their eggs, came in with the litter. They are nice to have around because they eat bugs.

Dick

Dick,

My stable litter is probably 80% manure and 20% shavings because I use the small pieces and a special basket fork that leaves mostly manure on the fork. I do pick up the wet shavings with the urine (the urine is what draws the flies more than the manure). I sprinkle them with water to dilute the ammonia and help with the flies and smell. I've found that this helps a lot. I also put a product on the stall mats that reduces the ammonia odor and absorbs some of the urine. I have to replace it a couple of times a week. Garden lime works just as well. Sprinkling that on the pile also helps.

[gsn]

Anyone have any luck with Milorganite....(crap from the residents of Milwaukee)? Why Milwaukee? Does their sewage smell better?

Rick,

I have heard that Milorganite is not good for palms.I was told to stay away from it on palms by several people. It seems to tie up the soil,so that certain nutrients, especially some miconutrients can not be absorbed( taken up) by the palms roots.

[MattyB]

I have a dog that likes to lay big ones right on top of small palms. Does that help 'em grow?

[_Keith]

I have a dog that likes to lay big ones right on top of small palms. Does that help 'em grow?

You bet cha! But they may have hairy trunks.

[MattyB]

I don't even know what that means but I'm sure it's gross. I'm guilty too.

[merrill]

Every time this subject comes up, it is necessary to remind growers that when steers are fattened, they often are given extra salt so they bulk up. There have been reports of excessive salts damaging plants when fertilized w/ this "feeder" manure. Caution is indicated re' salty manure.

merrill

[Walter John]

I have a dog that likes to lay big ones right on top of small palms. Does that help 'em grow?

male or female ?

[Tyrone]

I get my horse manure for free already bagged by the local racetrack stable area. They don't use woodchip over here, just sand. Sometimes you may get a bag that's mostly sand, but it will have something in it. I've found that all the palms love it, and by the end of the growing season, the worms and palms have almost gobbled the lot up and I have to reapply the next Spring. I put it heavily around my Chambeyronia's, Roystoneas, Raphia, Hyophorbes, Pritchardia's, and bamboos. I think someone hit the nail on the head. It doesn't just add nutrient to the soil, it adds microbes, and beneficial bacterias.

Cow manure would still be good, and if I had a ready supply of cow manure, I'd use that too. In our sandy soils, anything organic put back in the mix is an improvement.

Best regards

Tyrone

[ariscott]

Never have any problem putting horse manure on the palms. Bananas absolutely love it, even fresh ones!! I usually piled them up and let them decomposted a little bit for everything else... Now, if only I can get Scott to collect some more .

Regards, Ari

[Edrow]

Hey Keith

Goat manure is the best, you can even put in into vegetable gardens with out burning anything. Planning on hitting the guy up the road for a load shortly,

Edrow

[DoomsDave]

I don't even know what that means but I'm sure it's gross. I'm guilty too.

You poop on your palms? Ewww . . . .

[PalmGuyWC]

Foster Farms use to sell bagged, processed chicken manure. It had very little oder, and was hot, so it had to be used spairingly. I would scratch it into the soil around the palms and got excellent results. They quit selling it some years ago, and now it can only be gotten from the chicken farms in blulk, like a huge truck load. I think they give it away now if you go pick it up, but the farms are to far away for me to drive that far.

The so called chicken manure available now in my location is diluted with sawdust and is almost useless and pricey too, so I don't use it anymore. I've heard that elephant manure is excellent, but we are shy on Elephants in Walnut Creek.

Dick

[_Keith]

I've heard that elephant manure is excellent, but we are shy on Elephants in Walnut Creek.

Dick

LOL, but in seriousness, someone told me last week that zoo's are happy to give the stuff away, Elephant or anything else.

[PalmGuyWC]

Oh Boy!!

I can see a rush on zoos now, and who uses the most exotic manure. Actually, I think it's pileing up pretty deep on this thread. About college degrees: Our former board of director, exective secetary of the IPS, and Rhapis Queen from Texas, Lynn McKamey, said....a B.S. is Bull S..., a MS is More S...., and a Phd is Piled Higher and Deeper.

PS.....I think all of her kids went to Cornell and have Phd's.

Dick

[MattyB]

I have a friend who bought a house from a guy who used to work at the zoo. I guess the guy brought home elephant manure for years and the soil over there was just super rich and the worms were like humongous!!!

[Kris]

Here is Kris Soil Mix And their is not a tint of any manure in it.the composition is washed river sand,red sand,lots & lots of dried leaves(humas grade) & fish meal or dried fish in powdered form.once the palm,cycas or cactus is placed in this soil..i feed the plant with mild dosage of Di-Amonium-Phosphate every 2 weeks when the climate is not too hot !

Though iam not a fan of the organic form of cultivation but the store that sells me regular fertz also give me introductory packs of items that arrive new to the market,for me to try...here is a still of it.

love,

Kris

[ariscott]

Any manure you use... even chicken manure, just don't forget to compost them a little. You don't want to burn your sensitive stuff. Horse manure is a little kinder, but anything that has 4 stomach - like cow manure... just a little strong, if used fresh.

I never buy manure in bags.... if you can get them fresh and compost them, it is much better.

Regards, Ari

Edited May 23, 2008 by ariscott

[amazondk]

Speaking of manure I need to get some this weekend. Here the easiest to find is chicken manure in 50 kilo bags. It cost 7 reais, or about 5 USD. I made some chicken manure tea which is still in a barrel in my back yard. I soaked a bag of chicken manure in iwater for a few weeks. The stuff does not smell too good though. But, it works. Just dilute it and pour it on the plants.

dk

[joe_OC]

Been busy planting out all of my palms...

Got 10 cubic yard of organic horse manure compost to blanket (mulch) all the planters. The stuff is fully cooked and will not burn anything. Just about done spreading it all around at 4-5" thick. I love the clean look. Will post pics later today when I have some time.

Joe

Edited June 2, 2008 by joe_OC