Livingstonia decora/decipiens

[boko]

Hello

I bought a Livingstonia d at a gardencentre here in holland ,but will it survive a dutch winter, what is the minium zone they will survive??and what is the gerneral care of it?

we are in zone 8a i think, this year -6/-7minium.

thanks peter

[sonoranfans]

(boko @ Apr. 01 2008,01:54)

QUOTE

Hello

I bought a Livingstonia d at a gardencentre here in holland ,but will it survive a dutch winter, what is the minium zone they will survive??and what is the gerneral care of it?

we are in zone 8a i think, this year -6/-7minium.

thanks peter

I have also been looking at these, most refs say 20F is the minimum temp, one of the cold hardiest livistonias.

[boko]

thanks

worth a try then!

[Walter John]

You want to try Livistona australis for best cold resistance.

[boko]

I saw those desipiens neglected at a gardencertre i bought them for a few euro,i dont think you can buy L austalis plants over here. the only livinstonia thats avalibleover here is a chinensis.

just wanted to give it a try.

peter

[PalmGuyWC]

I wish my memory was better, but I only have 2 Livistonas, an australis and a decora. In the big freeze I remember the L. australis was almost completely defoliated and I can't remember the condition of the L. decora, but they both survived 14F (-10) and now they are both 40' high and there was no permanent damage to the trunks.

I remember I thought the L. australis was dead, but as sooon as warm weather arrived it sprang back to life. Both species are amazingly cold hardy, and to me L. decora is one of the nicest of the group. I think the 20F minimum only refers to foliage damage, but they obviously will survive much lower temps. Mine both had several feet of woody trunk when we had the big freeze, so a smaller plant might not have been as hardy.

Dick

[boko]

Dont

hink frost will be a problem then, cant remember the time we had temp below-10.but what about rain we have wet winters over here,do they enjoy rain? better cover them up maybe.

Peter

[PalmGuyWC]

Peter,

I get plenty of winter rain and cool temps in the winter, in fact that's when we get rain in Calif. and then no rain in the summer. Cool and wet has never seemed to bother my Livistonas.

Dick

[Kathryn]

Snow slightly damaged my chinensis a few years ago but the decora were fine. The temperature only got down to 32*F (0*C).

[Alberto]

Livistona !

I think the foliage of Livistona decora is hardier then Livistona decora.

[tank]

(Alberto @ Apr. 01 2008,06:54)

QUOTE

Livistona !

I think the foliage of Livistona decora is hardier then Livistona decora.

Alberto,

I'm confused?

L. decora has survived 17F and probably lower temps here in Gainesville.  I have one that is just starting to trunk and it showed no leaf damage at 21F this year.  It started growing again the next week once it warmed up.  This is also one of the speedier Livistonas.

[Alberto]

(tank @ Apr. 01 2008,09:05)

QUOTE

(Alberto @ Apr. 01 2008,06:54)

QUOTE

Livistona !

I think the foliage of Livistona decora is hardier then Livistona decora.

Alberto,

I'm confused?

L. decora has survived 17F and probably lower temps here in Gainesville.  I have one that is just starting to trunk and it showed no leaf damage at 21F this year.  It started growing again the next week once it warmed up.  This is also one of the speedier Livistonas.

Oooops! ......hardier then L.chinensis!

[_Keith]

(Kathryn @ Apr. 01 2008,05:23)

QUOTE

Snow slightly damaged my chinensis a few years ago but the decora were fine. The temperature only got down to 32*F (0*C).

I thought they were the same, or am I confused.

[PalmatierMeg]

L. chinensis & L. decipiens/decora (ribbon fan palm) are different. L. decipiens is a much prettier & tougher palm. Chinese fans look pale & ratty around here and, besides, are common as dirt. Ribbons have darker green foliage, drooping fronds (i.e., ribbons), robust trunks & dark brown "sharks' teeth" on the petioles. Ours faced down 4 hurricanes with only some fronds in disarray.

[sonoranfans]

(PalmatierMeg @ Apr. 01 2008,13:13)

QUOTE

L. chinensis & L. decipiens/decora (ribbon fan palm) are different. L. decipiens is a much prettier & tougher palm. Chinese fans look pale & ratty around here and, besides, are common as dirt. Ribbons have darker green foliage, drooping fronds (i.e., ribbons), robust trunks & dark brown "sharks' teeth" on the petioles. Ours faced down 4 hurricanes with only some fronds in disarray.

In arizona where pale and ratty happens to alot of palms, the sun/wind exposure is often a bigger factor than cold.  The hort. dept at Univ. of Arizona says the chinesis should be spared late day sun to look its best.  The decora is rated as more sun tolerant than chinesis.  I have a very nice, deep green chinesis, not ratty at all, but it is on the east side of my house(no late day sun), and has 3 queens overhead.  I would love to get a decora or two, and am trying to get them shipped in from florida.  I think its safe to say that if you can grow a nice chinesis in the arizona desert, you can also grow a nice one in florida.

[PalmGuyWC]

While we are on the subject......Since I only grow the two, L. australis and L. decora.....I've found both to be pretty darn cold hardy, but I think decora might be just a little tougher and take wind better, and it's certainly a prettier palm.  Mine glistens in the sun like silver and there is always some movement in the fronds.

Outside of the two mentioned, what do you think the next closest contenders are for cold hardiness, and for the blazing sun? I've seen beautiful L. chinensis growing in S. Fla. but they never look as good growing in Calif. They always look a little stunted and pale in Calif.

I hear L. nitida is quite cold hardy and also L. saribus, but saribus is to spiney for me. Any others out there that have been cold tested?

L. rotundifolia and robinsoniana are two of the prettist, but they are strictly tropical. The smaller growing L. muelleri is attractive too, but it's also tropical.

Dick

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

My specimens of Livistona showed L. chinensis to be coldhardier than L. australis; there are a lot of different experiences on this.  In my hands, only L. mariae has survived in Gainesville, Florida.  Livistona chinensis, L. australis, L. merrilli, L. saribus, L. rotundifolia, L. muelleri, and L. fulva have succumbed to low temperatures here.

I’d be very grateful for any responses as to relative coldhardiness of L. mariae and L decora [i. e. L. decipiens] There hasn’t been a direct comparison of L. mariae and L. decora but my results suggest they are similar in coldhardiness.  L. decora may have coldhardier foliage and L. mariae may have better total plant survival.  Thanks, merrill

[_Keith]

(PalmatierMeg @ Apr. 01 2008,12:13)

QUOTE

L. chinensis & L. decipiens/decora (ribbon fan palm) are different. L. decipiens is a much prettier & tougher palm. Chinese fans look pale & ratty around here and, besides, are common as dirt. Ribbons have darker green foliage, drooping fronds (i.e., ribbons), robust trunks & dark brown "sharks' teeth" on the petioles. Ours faced down 4 hurricanes with only some fronds in disarray.

Sorry.  Geez, I need new glasses.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

I just looked at the Livistona collection located at the Bamboo Farm in Savannah, GA.  Early Jan saw two very cold nights around 20 F (-6 to -7C) with the intervening daytime high of 35-38F (2-3C).  For comparison purposes, Washingtonia robusta and Queen palms were nearly defoliated, P. canariensis had foliage damage but damage varied by specimen and site.  Phoenix dactylifera, sylvestris, and theophrastii had little or no damage.  This freeze event was accompanied by extremely low dewpoints/frostpoints, and very strong winds so it was frost free.   Livistona chinensis had substantial cosmetic injury, Livistona nitida and decora both had lost most of the older fronds, but the younger fronds had little or no damage.  However, I couldn't tell how many fronds had emerged since the freeze.  Livistona saribus and Livistona drudei appeared uninjured, but both plants were small (less than 1.5 meters overall) and had overhead protection.  I have some photos I'll try to post in the future.  I'm working on a 9+ year old Dell but I've purchased an IMAC which should make the photo management much better.  It may be a week before I'm able to post those photos.  By the way, I do not believe any Livistona will grow in the Netherlands without some environmental modification.  Winter nights are frosty and IMHO, 20 frosty nights a month for 3 months will result in lethal damage.

[Kathryn]

Here are some pictures showing the difference between Livistona chinensis and Livistona decora.

First a picture of them side by side. The Livistona chinensis plants on the right were planted from a five-gallon triple sometime in 2001. The Livistona decora on the left was planted from a three gallon during the summer of 2004. I guess the growth rate of the decora is about twice that of the chinensis.

[Kathryn]

Livistona decora on the right and Livistona chinensis on the left

[Kathryn]

Here is a bed of three Livistona decora planted from three-gallon plants during the summer of 2005.

[Kathryn]

Livistona decora trunk

[Kathryn]

Livistona decora leaf (upper side)

[Kathryn]

Livistona decora leaf (underside)

[Kathryn]

Livistona chinensis leaf (upper side)

[Kathryn]

Livistona chinensis leaf (underside)

[Kathryn]

Peter - Below is a picture of the three Livistona decora shown in post 22. I mistakenly stated that they were planted during the summer of 2005, when actually it was during the summer of 2004. It snowed on Christmas day 2004 and the picture below was taken the following day. The temperature didn’t get below 32ºF (0ºC) so this probably isn’t a good indicator for you.

[Kathryn]

Here is the Livistona chinensis the day after it snowed. I didn’t knock off the snow because I wanted to see the effect.

[Kathryn]

The following spring, some of the chinensis leaves showed the damage below. I’m not sure if this was a result of the cold because the leaf tips showed damage, but not the centers were the snow accumulated. Again, the temperature didn’t get below 32ºF.

[_Keith]

All of the L. chinensis around here, mine included, are showing minor leaf damage from our low of 26.  Nothing threatening at all, but a little unsightly.  I doubt it will be noticeable by mid summer.

[Kathryn]

I’ve seen many Livistona chinensis with damage in areas north of New Orleans and Mobile, Alabama after experiencing temperatures in the upper teens (-8ºC) but they survive just fine. A big difference between here and Holland is that our low temperatures only last one or two nights in a row and we often warm up to the mid 70’s (24ºC) during the winter months. Snow is a rarity, occurring once every ten or more years.

Unfortunately Livistona decora haven’t been around here long enough to see what effect low temperatures might have. The last time my temperature got below 25ºF (-4ºC) was in January 2002.

You may as well give it a try and protect it for the first year or two. It will be interesting to see the difference in growth rate between here and Holland.

[FRITO]

(Kathryn @ Apr. 02 2008,19:44)

QUOTE

Livistona decora on the right and Livistona chinensis on the left

looks like decora on the left, chinesis on the right. I think you have it backwards.

there is variability in each species, I have one chineses thats been in the ground 2 years and get bud rot spear pull every year (twice) it is a sick palm that just cant get going it seems.

I have a 7 gallon or so clump that gets afternoon sun which was stated that isnt good and burned alot of the foilage from sun last summer.

chineses is definently a shade loving palm here in north florida.

heres a triple chinesis in a shadier area.

[osideterry]

Kathryn - Your L. decoras have that signature ribbony droop even as seedlings. Here's a picture of mine from a year ago. It's taller than the fence now, but shows no sign of droopiness. The fence protects it from wind, so it's not getting beaten up.

[Kris]

Dear Kate  

thanks for those step by step illustrations of those fan palms..

great stills and those stills with snow & its burn on the leaf,those stills were great...since here in our tropical hot climate we do not see anthing like that...

love,

Kris  

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

For the other Livistona lovers out there, here is a link to my album depicting other Livistonas at the Bamboo Farm in Savannah, GA, USA.  The coldest night in winter '07-08 was about 20F, maybe 22F.  It was a windy, dry cold and damage was probably reduced because there wasn't any frost. Mar 29, 2008

[Cycadcenter]

Here are some decipiens/decora in their natural habitat near Woodgate Beach  Qld which is about 10km from one of our farms there.

Bruce

[freakypalmguy]

Thanks Bruce, droopy palms are cool. I'm thinking a grouping with B. clara and L. decipiens/decora woul be a sight.

Matt

[ruskinPalms]

Well, I'll go against the crowd.. I like the look of L. chinensis better. Maybe decipiens looks better in person than in the photos though. Still, I love chinensis when grown in shadier areas. Mine get too much sun right now and are a bit compact in their growth. Slow too, which is good for the way I am using them in my landscape. They may have actually taken a little dessication damage (very minimal at that) from the early Jan freeze mentioned - I really don't think the damage was from cold since the low was only about 29F, but those winds were strong and dry. Go ahead and try the decipiens in Holland. They might work, trying the improbable is what makes this hobby fun. But, my suspicion is that they are cold hardy, but maybe not for prolonged periods. I think they appreciate winter warmups between the freezes.

[Brad-Tampa]

This L. decora has survived in Tampa for almost 43 years, after several hard freezes and an episode of drooping crown which straightened back out, it is still going strong. Brad