I have been wondering how any Syagrus x Butias have done during the cold weather. I believe a few people bought these two to three years ago now. So I am hoping that there might be some favorable reports from the recent cold.

I'm thinking of trying one or two in my garden here in the UK but I can get temperatures of 20F most Winters so am looking for some advice from others before buying them please. I would also be interested to know how much heat they need to grow during the Summer as the standard Butia x Syagrus is quite slow for me please.

Daniel, not sure about the SxB hybrid but my BxS took 16F without any signs of damage thus far. Jv

I can't comment on SXB, but my SXJ strap leaf seedling did just fine 13nights below freezing low 21F.

I can't comment on SXB, but my SXJ strap leaf seedling did just fine 13nights below freezing low 21F.

Paul,

Thanks for the report. Its the first I've seen on Syagrus X Jubaea. I've seen one that had divided fronds and it's the only cocoid hybrid I've seen that is plumose. Please keep us informed how yours does in N. Florida.

Dick

Roger that Dick, I'll keep you updated. Even @ such an early stage ,this looks like it may end up being one of my favorites. BTW my JXS is continuing growth throughout winter.

Regards,

Paul

I can't comment on SXB, but my SXJ strap leaf seedling did just fine 13nights below freezing low 21F.

If cold hardiness is a trait that is passed by Cytoplasmatic inheritance ,then the Syagrus x Butia are probably less hardy than the more common Butia x Syagrus....

Acid test for cold hardiness was whaty we had in 83, 85, and 89 in North Florida--- the Butia x Syagrus survived but a fellow out in Glen St Mary lost a few large ones ( probably 5 F) Heavy Gail force winds in 83 and 85 not so much in 89 but 4 days of bitter cold in teens . I had one injured I had planted it in 88' as a 3 gallon--- I was afraid that I had lost it but it returned in July(crown collapsed) big ones at FCCj college on Beach Blvd were not hurt . While this cold weather was a wake up call to many of the states new comers --- it is nothing like what indurred in the 80's.

Best regards,

Ed

for the record the "x" in Latin means from - so technically the typical Mule hybrid would be Syagrus x Butia (not sure if the oppo. exists), and of course hardly anyone follows this...

Dave,

Good to hear from you ! Not to be truculent but no matter how I arrange the genuses it --- I get corrected !

http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/horticulture/vpe_horticulture5.htm--

for example. I have heard of the x being equated to by rather than from ---

Best regards

Ed

Hey Ed,

no intention of singling you out, I'm just as guilty of it as anyone - this just a tidbit I've been throwing out on this board since it's inception, I suspect people just say hmmm and rub their chin, then move on with their lives - expect no less a reaction this time 'round.

How'd you make out this Winter, any nice surprises or disappointments? I've a few, planning to post a wrap-up eventually. That Jubaeopsis OK? I worry for it/you every winter.

Also do you have mature Liv. drudei at your place? I wonder if back of petioles are diff. from decora, more colorful perhaps???

duplicate

No problem I didnt quite mean it that way --- just that you have loads of Butiax Syagrus citations in the literature -- the article by Waas initially and Merrill later on. ---thats what I was noting--- Most every thing is burnt but not as bad as in 2001 ----

Chuniophoenix hainensis wasnt really bothered as much as last time --- L. drudei crown burnt up but this happened many times with this species as welll as L.. muelleri --- piles of seeds from the L. drudei dropping and collecting them . The Jubeaopsis and Triangle were covered well. None of the Macrozamias were bothered. Minor damage on E. lehmannii's . I have a large Cycas hainensis as an understory that wasnt bothered

Best regards,

Ed

Tala,

The seed bearing plant is always listed first, such as Butia X Syagrus, (the mule). I generally write both species of a hybrid to prevent confusion. We are getting to many pet names and abbreviations with these hybrids, and yes there is a Syagrus X Butia, but I don't know how much cold they will take or how fast they grow. I saw a mature one in Florida years ago, and it looked like a weird Syagrus.

Dick

for the record the "x" in Latin means from - so technically the typical Mule hybrid would be Syagrus x Butia (not sure if the oppo. exists), and of course hardly anyone follows this...

Syagrus x Butia is how they list in the plant finder. I did not understand it either but they explained the same thing to me about the x in Latin.

The opposite is in other references -- article about hybridization by Merrill uses mother first. other references also...

Best regards,

Ed

The opposite is in other references -- article about hybridization by Merrill uses mother first. other references also...

Best regards,

Ed

The "X" between the two names means "crossed" to me. Latin or not.

Dick

The opposite is in other references -- article about hybridization by Merrill uses mother first. other references also...

Best regards,

Ed

The "X" between the two names means "crossed" to me. Latin or not.

Dick

That's the way I've always interpreted it. I sometimes even say it Butia "times" Sygrus, it's simple mathematics really, Butia X Syagrus = Butyagrus . Whether it's right or not, it's easy for a simple guy like myself

I currently have Syagrus X Butia ripening on a tree, so I will be testing the hardiness of this hybrid in the future, that is if I get germination.

Matt

Edited February 3, 201016 yr by freakypalmguy

why do we use Latin instead of common names - I read Matt's post above as he has a Cocosoid hybrid with Butia as the mother, nothing unusual about that - but if he has one with Syagrus as the seed holder now we have something a bit different. This is why its important to use the X correctly. Have no idea if there are hard & fast rules for "naming" palms, Butyagrus certainly rolls off the tongue much easier than Syagrutia. Every correct direction has a first step ...

why do we use Latin instead of common names - I read Matt's post above as he has a Cocosoid hybrid with Butia as the mother, nothing unusual about that - but if he has one with Syagrus as the seed holder now we have something a bit different. This is why its important to use the X correctly. Have no idea if there are hard & fast rules for "naming" palms, Butyagrus certainly rolls off the tongue much easier than Syagrutia. Every correct direction has a first step ...

Tala (Dave)

I had to laugh at your suggestion of "Syagrutia" for the name of Syagrus X Butia, and I tried several pronunciations. After awhile it does sort of roll off your tounge. Phonetically, I would call it sigh-A-grut-eaa. How would you pronounce it? Actually that name sounds like a disease, but shouldn't it be called Syabutia?

Dick

why do we use Latin instead of common names - I read Matt's post above as he has a Cocosoid hybrid with Butia as the mother, nothing unusual about that - but if he has one with Syagrus as the seed holder now we have something a bit different. This is why its important to use the X correctly. Have no idea if there are hard & fast rules for "naming" palms, Butyagrus certainly rolls off the tongue much easier than Syagrutia. Every correct direction has a first step ...

Tala (Dave)

I had to laugh at your suggestion of "Syagrutia" for the name of Syagrus X Butia, and I tried several pronunciations. After awhile it does sort of roll off your tounge. Phonetically, I would call it sigh-A-grut-eaa. How would you pronounce it? Actually that name sounds like a disease, but shouldn't it be called Syabutia?

Dick

In Portuguese (´´littlte´´closer to Latin...) I read it: See-A-GROO-chea-a,but in Latin it probably is See-a-GROO-tsee-a

why do we use Latin instead of common names - I read Matt's post above as he has a Cocosoid hybrid with Butia as the mother, nothing unusual about that - but if he has one with Syagrus as the seed holder now we have something a bit different. This is why its important to use the X correctly. Have no idea if there are hard & fast rules for "naming" palms, Butyagrus certainly rolls off the tongue much easier than Syagrutia. Every correct direction has a first step ...

Tala (Dave)

I had to laugh at your suggestion of "Syagrutia" for the name of Syagrus X Butia, and I tried several pronunciations. After awhile it does sort of roll off your tounge. Phonetically, I would call it sigh-A-grut-eaa. How would you pronounce it? Actually that name sounds like a disease, but shouldn't it be called Syabutia?

Dick

In Portuguese (´´littlte´´closer to Latin...) I read it: See-A-GROO-chea-a,but in Latin it probably is See-a-GROO-tsee-a

Thanks for your input Alberto. I'm sure your closer to latin than most of us. I'm curious, has anyone actually seen a mature Syagrus X Butia?

Getting back to Daniel's original question: Daniel, have you considered a Butia X Parajubaea? They have proven to be very cold hardy, and mine even grows (slowly) in the winter time. My winters are something like an English winter, very foggy, cool, wet, and on occasion my temps. can dip down into the 20's. In the warmer months my B X P is the fastest growing palm I have.

Dick

Thanks for your input Alberto. I'm sure your closer to latin than most of us. I'm curious, has anyone actually seen a mature Syagrus X Butia?

Dick

Mark do you have a picture?

I am collecting photos of most hybrids for identification and my education.

Best regards,

Ed

Edited February 4, 201016 yr by Daniel

Dan,

I'm surprised to hear your B X P has been damaged, the first I have heard. I know you have had two wicked winters in the UK. How cold did you get? My B X P took 23.5 F in 2007 and many nights of hard frost with no damage. It is out in the open with no protection. I've heard they will take it down to the teens with no damage.

Dick

Dick, actually I told you mine was damaged by snow several weeks ago. Dry cold doesn't seem to bother them, but frost or snow seems to be a problem for them even in the low 20's.

Syagrus x Butia...

Scott,

That's a beautiful palm. I see it has wine colored flowers like a couple of my Butia X Syagrus. I have another mule that has cream colored flowers.

Martin, I remember you said the snow seemed to have bronzed your B X P, but some of the temps you have experienced this winter would test any palm. I think this is a winter we all will remember. Kind of hard to support global warming, isn't it?

Dick

Dick, actually I told you mine was damaged by snow several weeks ago. Dry cold doesn't seem to bother them, but frost or snow seems to be a problem for them even in the low 20's.

Dick mine got down to about 20F, but as said by mjff, it seems to be a combination of cold combined with very high humidity that causes bronzing to the leaves.

My BXP was not damaged w/ 22f for several hours and heavy frost. I guess it depends on which parent it leans to.

But on the other hand, age/size makes a difference as well.

Ed,

I should've taken a pic of Merrills' Syagrus X Butia, but i did'nt bring a camera w/ me when i visited him.

Scott,

That's a beautiful palm. I see it has wine colored flowers like a couple of my Butia X Syagrus. I have another mule that has cream colored flowers.

Martin, I remember you said the snow seemed to have bronzed your B X P, but some of the temps you have experienced this winter would test any palm. I think this is a winter we all will remember. Kind of hard to support global warming, isn't it?

Dick

Dick, The palm produces wine and cream colored flowers.

Alberto brought my attention to this topic. I am not much into hybrids other than wild Phoenix but I love to see how hybrids are developed in cultivation.

There is an ongoing controversy about naming hybrids. If you plan on starting a serious program, any system of short names will lead to confusion. My suggestion is to write down all the needed names. So, a Jubaea chilensis x (J. chilensis x(Butia eryospatha x Syagrus romanzoffiana)) is nothing but a Jubaea chilensis x (J. chilensis x(Butia eryospatha x Syagrus romanzoffiana)).

The mother always goes first. "X" is the symbol meaning cross, it is not a Latin word.

Carlo

Hey Scott, did that beauty get hurt with the cold winter this year??? What was the coldest temps that the palm experienced? Thanks, beautiful palm! Jv

Dick, when mine got burnt it was snow and 23F. I covered it when we got to 12F with frost, and it doesn't appear there is any additional damage from the extreme cold, since the frost couldn't get to it.

Hey Scott, did that beauty get hurt with the cold winter this year??? What was the coldest temps that the palm experienced? Thanks, beautiful palm! Jv

Jv, The lowest temp this palm has seen in its life is 27f, this year and a past winter with no damage. A Livistona chinensis (mature) growing about 7' away, shows damage this year from 9 hrs below freezing and heavy frost. I have seen lots of damaged S. roms (some about 60%) in my neighborhood this year.

Thanks for the info Scott. Good to hear that it came out of this winter without any damage where other palms sustained some. I imagine this palm could survive lower temps if need be. A fabulous looking palm. Jv

Interesting Scott, is that your tree? Can you show a picture of the whole tree? It looks pretty interesting, large leaf bases, fat trunk, upright fronds.

Matt

actually found an on-line version of botanical code, 12 sections on hybrids and absolutely nothing to back up my orig. assertion - now racking me brain to figure out where I "learned" that from ... animal hybrids are named sire first e.g. ligers, tigons, etc. Figures that plants would be opposite.

heres an applicable portion for naming - the bottom recommendation looks like what should be used, hopefully I can avoid confusing myself or anyone else from now on...

APPENDIX I

NAMES OF HYBRIDS

Article H.2

H.2.1. A hybrid between named taxa may be indicated by placing the multiplication sign between the names of the taxa; the whole expression is then called a hybrid formula.

Ex. 1. Agrostis L. . × Polypogon Desf.; Agrostis stolonifera L. × Polypogon monspeliensis (L.) Desf.; Salix aurita L. × S. caprea L.; Mentha aquatica L. × M. arvensis L. × M. spicata L.; Polypodium vulgare subsp. prionodes (Asch.) Rothm. × subsp. vulgare; Tilletia caries (Bjerk.) Tul. × T. foetida (Wallr.) Liro.

Recommendation H.2A

H.2A.1. It is usually preferable to place the names or epithets in a formula in alphabetical order. The direction of a cross may be indicated by including the sexual symbols (C: female;X: male) in the formula, or by placing the female parent first. If a non-alphabetical sequence is used, its basis should be clearly indicated.

Interesting Scott, is that your tree? Can you show a picture of the whole tree? It looks pretty interesting, large leaf bases, fat trunk, upright fronds.

Matt

Matt, Yes it is my tree and here are more pictures... Dont look at the frozen plants around it.

Edited February 6, 201016 yr by Tampa Scott

Thank you Scott, it's really hard to see what the head of this one looks like, but the trunk and leaf bases are really nice. Is it still as plumose as a queen?