Call it whatever, this is my #1 seedling killer

[Trópico]

It is morning. I mist my seedlings that are indoors to avoid the cool winter outdoors. Every seedling looks fine.

I go to work.

I come back. One of my Hydriasteles is skinnier than usual, and a dull green. The plant is dead, I know it already. It happened again. This is how I lost the last two Hydriastele seedlings and a K. magnifica. Beyond that countless that I don't remember.

[Trópico]

I remove the plant carefully, knowing that the roots are in perfect condition

[Trópico]

I subject the corpse to an autopsy. The little spear pulls very easily.

[Trópico]

Everything else pulls off way too easily. Not for the faint hearted!

[Trópico]

This is the growing point. Dessicated, I don't know why! The roots are fine, I have five others that have been subjected to the same conditions and diet. I found the top of the soil a little dry due to the indoors-south window (with a veil to prevent direct sun) conditions but the rest of the soil was moist. Is this "bud rot"? Or the effect of some kind of stress? What is this and how can I prevent it from happening? Help!

[Matt in SD]

Hi Frank,

I notice that you'd had some tip dieback as well, based on the cutoff tips.  I would say that 90% of my seedling losses follow this same course.  Last winter I posted on here about a problem in my greenhouse that was very similar and I lost about 30% of my palms.  What is sad is that after you've seen this several times, you get an eye for it, and can tell a palm is dead when most people would think it looks fine.  

I don't know for sure what it is.  But I do know a few things for sure.   The tip browning is the first sign.  If the dead area of the leaf tip shows black spots and/or a swirly pattern, it's definitely bad.  Fungicides can defintely stop it.  Subdue seems the most effective and I use this as a foliar spray as well as a soil drench.  Just to be safe and avoid resistance I apply Daconil and Aliette in sequence over the 2-4 weeks after the Subdue application.  This will pretty much stop it, but I still start to see the tip browning about 3 months after the fungicide treatment and get scared and treat again.  As much as I hate to use chemicals too much, the results from regular fungicide treatments on greenhouse palms are hard to argue with.  My plants are WAY healthier, grow faster, and don't die.  I was fine without fungicides in my greenhouse for about 3 years, but I think at some point bad guys get in there and you're sort of stuck.

I also have been suspicious that mites can spread this problem.  If you have no mites, it seems to affect only seedlings.  You might get some larger palms with tip dieback, but the plants usually don't die.  If you have mites, then all hell can break loose.  I'm not sure if they are actually spreading the pathogen or just weakening the plants, but either way you need to get rid of mites.

I got rid of a very persistent, low level, mite problem last spring,.  It was a bit of work, but has gotten rid of them for a year now.  If you have a mite problem as well I can tell you what I did.

Matt

[cobra2326]

I'm glad you posted this, because I've lost 30-40% of all my seedling this winter to this same problem.  The plant ALWAYS rots at the base where yours did.  One thing that's seem to have helped is having a large fan near my palms to circulate the air.  I have also used some Physan 20 which may or may not have helped.  Can anyone comment on the physan?

Matt, I've had a few mite problems, but the a mixture of Ortho Systemic and Neem generally takes care of them.  I think you may have recommended it?

I would say for sure that the cause is "damping off" which, from what I've heard, is an all-encompassing term for fungal infections which cause a quick death.  I  actually lost a 3g C. samoanse this year to this...

Tropico, do you get a white powdery growth across the top of your soil also?  I've been reading a lot on this stuff lately, and I've also learned that a high soil pH (such as a mulch-based soil) can promote fungal growth.

[MattyB]

Well, first of all, I cannot keep tiny seedlings like that alive through winter unless they are inside of a greenhouse.  They just need heat to continue to grow and not damp off.  Matt even has an aquarium set up with supplimental heat for those super picky ones.  He seems to get stronger plants that way.  Sometimes the greenhouse dosen't even offer enough heat in long cloudy spells in winter, like we're having now.  I can kill more Kentiopsis magnifica......

I too have found that regular applications of Daconil will help to prevent damping off of tiny seedlings.  An extremely light and open mix will help too.

[cobra2326]

Matt, where do you get your fungicides at?  I just did a search and they're very expensive...

[Matt in SD]

Jon,

Subdue is very expensive.  A good friend gave me a couple ounces last winter when I was about to lose my mind over all my palms dying.  I would recommend finding a few other people who want it and splitting a bottle.  It's very concentrated, you only use 5 drops per gallon.

Daconil is easy to find ad HD or Lowe's.  They have Aliette in pretty small containers at Armstrong Nursery (which may be a local chain here).  I'm not too impressed with Aliette though, I think Subdue and Daconil will do just as well as the combination of all three.

Matt, I've told you before that you can have a bit of Subdue if you need it.  It will fix your K magnifica's right up.  My two are doing fine, even the sickly one you gave me.  

And yes, my fish tank incubator is great for the sensitive guys.  But I have now unequivocably proven that Basselinias other than B gracilis are just impossible to grow.  They die in outside, in my greenhouse, and in my fishtank setup.  

Matt

[Palm Guy]

Same thing happens to me...I lost 3 Mapu and 4 Cyrtostachys like that. Not fun to watch. Those all occured on a peat based medium and for plants stored inside. I have a Cyrtostachys seedling that is outside and is looking much better than some of the ones inside. My theory (possibly wrong) is that if the base of the of the seedling or the top layer is overly wet for too long...fungus would set in. I think the browning of the leaf tips are a water stress signal. Either too much or too little water.  

Is there another equivilent to Daconil? Ive heard of that on the forum quite a bit but it isnt available here...

Thanks,

Mike

[MattyB]

Mike, the active ingredient is actually called Chorothalinil.

[ghar41]

My experiences have been very similar.  Im certainly no expert in this area but Daconil has worked fine for me and I use a "Seed starting" mix for seedlings with Sphagnum and perlite...no potting soil and little or no fertilizer.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi Guys,

Matt in SD, has given lots of great info for you guys,

that will help with regard to #1 seedling killer

(Menitioned by Michael. F. in earlier posting)

Another thing that can also cause such

problems is the Mix (retaining moisture)

A more open mix will get heated far better during the

day, Esp if your using pots and not a lot of light required.

And being inside the warmth is maintained & will stay warmer at night.

But with a mix thats no so open,Well this pot will take

so much more to heat but even by the end of the day

won't be like the latter, and cools down so quick by

say mid- night the second mix is back to cooler temps.

Hence water playing in as a factor there rotting the

above & signs of whats being pictured above.

Then with Matts info you'll have alot less losses.

Hope this helps out.

Regards Mikey.

[cobra2326]

I think it's definitely related to the soil density and wetness, as well as some other factors such as pH.  I've had seedlings die just like this (Pinanga coronata) that had about half an inch of root exposed before the soil line, so I know that the base of the palm was not overly wet.  

Frank, another thing I noticed is that your pots are white.  I've been trying more and more to find black pots, as those heat up much better.  I also have lots of clear pots and I think these cause issues with algae/fungus and others.

[Trópico]

HI all! Thanks for your replies.

Matt: The cutoff tips is a built in feature of the leaves of Hydriastele pinangoides. I have a few other seedlings with tip dieback but the subject palm had none.

Cobra: There is no white powdery substance in the soil. I know what you are referring to and I've had it before but I am being very careful when watering my potted plants. I am using a mister to avoid overwatering. So this is the infamous "damping off". It is the most frustrating thing that can happen as it gives NO warning. The seedling can be nice and shiny in the morning and dead in the afternoon!

Palm Guy: I have lost Cyrtostachys too but not by this problem. In my case they seem to have shed their roots one by one until they fall on their side and die.

I did spray the palms, including the subject, with Garden Safe Fungicide "3-in-1" and I am conclusively discarding it as a mediocre product. It does not work even as an insecticide/miticide.

At my local Lowe's or HD I can only seem to find Spectracide Immunox, Garden Safe, Ortho products, also Liquid Copper Fungicide but I've never heard or seen Daconil (only here in this forum) and I would like to have it. Also, I've heard that hydrogen peroxide works in some situations. Is this the one sold in pharmacies?

My conclusion based on all your comments and my numerous (sadly) experiences is that it is a fungal attack on a stressed palm. Lack of humidity, direct sun, weak palms overall, brown bases, etc. The problem tends to show up in the afternoon only.

Right now I'm trying a method that I kind of discovered (well it definitely is not new) and that I will talk about later. Until I'm sure it works...

[cobra2326]

The garden safe fungicide is really just neem oil.  It works alright for mites, but it's not a long term solution.  Ortho has a daconil-based "disease treatment" product, just look for the active ingredient Chorothalinil.

Do you have any issues with the deeper soil not staying wet while misting?  I noticed that effect, especially when using peat-based media.  I usually drench the soil and allow it to dry for a few days.  I've got a fan pointed directly at the palms, so it tends to dry the soil surfaces pretty quickly.  Kinda kills the humidity though.  A greenhouse would probably be the best solution.

[gsn]

(Trópico @ Jan. 29 2008,13:51)

QUOTE

At my local Lowe's or HD I can only seem to find Spectracide Immunox, Garden Safe, Ortho products, also Liquid Copper Fungicide but I've never heard or seen Daconil (only here in this forum) and I would like to have it. Also, I've heard that hydrogen peroxide works in some situations. Is this the one sold in pharmacies?

Frank,

You should be able to buy the Daconil at any WalMart!

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Frank...I think a big problem could be that they look way overpotted. At the most, those seedlings should be in 3x9 liners. I would start there. Not claiming to be an expert, but it seems small plants are happier when they're a bit root bound.

[Pivi]

Can you tell me those yellow "marbles"...is it a fertilizer?

What kind?

Thanks

[MattyB]

Daconil can be found at Walmart labled as Daconil.

Home Depot carries the Ortho Brand which calls it "Garden Disease Control".  The active ingredient is Chlorothalonil and should be about 27%.

They are the same thing.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

(Trópico @ Jan. 28 2008,15:25)

QUOTE

It is morning. I mist my seedlings that are indoors to avoid the cool winter outdoors. Every seedling looks fine.

I go to work.

I come back. One of my Hydriasteles is skinnier than usual, and a dull green. The plant is dead, I know it already. It happened again. This is how I lost the last two Hydriastele seedlings and a K. magnifica. Beyond that countless that I don't remember.

Hi Guys,

           One very Important thing, (In this picture,)

If you are growing Any palms from Borneo and have

applied Ferts, You'll find that their going to die a slow

death for sure, A rich organic mix is all thats required.

Not only that, No fungicides or insecticides, this will see

them die for sure, And don't over pot them.

This is a must not, for such palms.

Cheers All.

Mikey.  

[Trópico]

(Pivi @ Jan. 29 2008,16:23)

QUOTE

Can you tell me those yellow "marbles"...is it a fertilizer?

What kind?

Thanks

Those are Osmocote pellets. A slow release fertilizer 19-6-12. These will inflate in time and become watery transparent, then disintegrate, leaving no spent residues. Available at your local HD or Lowe's.

[ghar41]

(Trópico @ Jan. 30 2008,15:56)

QUOTE

(Pivi @ Jan. 29 2008,16:23)

QUOTE

Can you tell me those yellow "marbles"...is it a fertilizer?

What kind?

Thanks

Those are Osmocote pellets. A slow release fertilizer 19-6-12. These will inflate in time and become watery transparent, then disintegrate, leaving no spent residues. Available at your local HD or Lowe's.

Just my opinion..... but I would be hesitant to fertilize such young and tender palms.

Also...I have become a follower of the smallest pots for seedlings...I have had much better success compared to the plastic cups.  Keep an eye on them tho as they can dry out quickly.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

(ghar41 @ Jan. 30 2008,17:09)

QUOTE

(Trópico @ Jan. 30 2008,15:56)

QUOTE

(Pivi @ Jan. 29 2008,16:23)

QUOTE

Can you tell me those yellow "marbles"...is it a fertilizer?

What kind?

Thanks

Those are Osmocote pellets. A slow release fertilizer 19-6-12. These will inflate in time and become watery transparent, then disintegrate, leaving no spent residues. Available at your local HD or Lowe's.

Just my opinion..... but I would be hesitant to fertilize such young and tender palms.

Also...I have become a follower of the smallest pots for seedlings...I have had much better success compared to the plastic cups.  Keep an eye on them tho as they can dry out quickly.

Hi Glenn,

Well spotted, And with over potting and so much fert,

Certain 'sp's  and Genera, Are'nt happy,

Another thing With appling slow release fert's

they need to be covered by a little soil.

Only 1 third of Fert will be used , What is exposed will just go up in the air,(Residues)

Once again good to see someone listening,( Only trying

to Help)

Cheers Glenn, Mikey

[Logolight]

From what I can see in those pots, there's alot of peat in the mix.  My experience with peat is it can easily be too wet or too dry.  It also has the tendancy to compact over a longer period of time inhibiting it's drainability.  

Also, like ghar41 said, hold off on the fertilizer for a few months after germination as the seed will provide the nutrience to the seedling for about that long.

Dave

[ghar41]

I really like these small pots (2 1/4" tall x 2 3/4" across the top) to start seedlings.  I also use a slightly larger one for larger palms.  I have overpotted so many seedlings in the past, and although these are more maintenance (repotting more often) they are giving me better rates of success on plants i dont want to risk losing.

Lepidorrachis mooreana

[feef706]

I lost a licaula mapu to this same sort of problem except it wasnt in the winter It was in the summer I had been keeping the plant under a L. chinesis to keep the sun off of it and then I tried moving it out for a little more light and a few days later i noticed the newest leaf was skinny and pale and it pulled right out.. I think I shocked it.. my plant was small it only had one opened leaf and one almost all of the way emerged when it happened..

[tropicalb]

I have killed an ARMY of dypsis by over-potting and overwatering them.

[Trópico]

Thanks for your input all! You write, I learn!

Those are the smallest pots I currently have. These were donated to me by the English Garden lady two houses next to me. She buys plants all the time and brings me pots. The seedlings themselves are very small.

I applied the Osmocote due to something interesting I noticed: a very deep green seedling compared to the rest of the batch which were a pale green. That green seedling happened to have a few Osmocote pellets because it was reused soil whereas the others had new soil without fertilizer. More on that on a different thread.

I will bury the pellets and I should not go overboard with the smaller seedlings.

As small as those seedlings are, their seed is already spent.

That mix is Jungle Growth potting mix. It's the best one I have come across. If I use what I was using before, all my seedlings would be dead by now. Still, it is always a challenge to try to maintain the right balance of water between the top and bottom of the soil.

[tropicalb]

Frank....

have you thought about adding perlite to the mix to open it up a little more? There are folks here i know that grow palm seedlings in nothing more than (believe it or not...) three parts #3 perlite to one part sunshine mix #2 (which is basically peat moss for the most part), and do very well with that mix.

[Trópico]

I took note I should. I haven't been adding perlite because there is a small percentage already in the mix and I'm almost out of my perlite bag, so I was just experimenting to see if the perlite already included was sufficient. But I will add more.

I have seen the mix that HD (Morningstar?) uses and it has the consistency of tiny wood chips. Does anybody know anything about that or have noticed it? Please share! Thanks.

[gsn]

Perlite does open the mix alot Frank,if you mix it in with the jungle growth you already have. It will give you a much airery(sp) mix for gallon or less containers,small seedlings!

Speaking of tiny wood chips,does anyone know where one can by pine bark chips that are small,say 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch,to add to the mix?

All I have seen is pine bark mulch,which is way to big to add to a potting mix.

thanks

[Logolight]

(gsn @ Feb. 01 2008,15:04)

QUOTE

Perlite does open the mix alot Frank,if you mix it in with the jungle growth you already have. It will give you a much airery(sp) mix for gallon or less containers,small seedlings!

Speaking of tiny wood chips,does anyone know where one can by pine bark chips that are small,say 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch,to add to the mix?

All I have seen is pine bark mulch,which is way to big to add to a potting mix.

thanks

Scott, on your question of bark chips, I started a thread a few days back on the use of "Orchid Mix".  I haven't tried it yet and was asking if anyone else had used it.  It has a lot of smalll sized chips in it and I'm going to try it the next time I repot my seedlings.

Dave

[cobra2326]

Would anyone local (tropico, spock, ray, bren, etc.) be willing to split an order of subdue?  It's quite expensive but split 5-10 ways it would be $25-50, respectively, and still make 600-300 gallons worth of treatment.

[soro]

Hi Frank,

I dont think that your seedlings are succumbing to over potting or over fertilizing. They would show completely different symptoms. It is bud rot, damping off. The fact that roots are perfectly healthy indicate that palms are actually quite happy but... you have your potting mix infected with Phytophtora spores. I had exactly the same problems with completely all species I grow (about 70). I used to lose almost 90% of Washies, Trachies ,Phoenix, Dypsis, Ravenea... you name it... regardless of the season and regardless how well drained the mix was. Bigger palms can sometimes outgrow the disease but small seedlings are quite vulerable. Yes, Aliette, Banrot, or Ridomil (systemic fungicides with metalaxyl or phosetyl aluminium) are the way to go. Cheers.

[Trópico]

The hooded palm reaper paid me another visit two nights ago, this time taking away a Kentiopsis magnifica. Now I'm down to one. I noticed the newest leaf had shrunk in volume but did not pull. But I knew it was dead so I pulled even stronger and there it was, the bud was watery brown. Only the bud (growing point). Nothing else.

Oh well. I will have to live with this problem as a game of chance. This can happen without warning and over a period of hours. Well I did notice that this newest leaf stopped growing sometime ago.

Also I discovered the uselessness of Copper fungicide. I drenched several palms on a solution of this only to find mold growing all over the drenched area the next day!  

[cobra2326]

It's definitely damping off, and it's most likely caused by Phytophtora.  UFL has some great info on their site.  The #1 recommendation seems to be subdue, and it's labeled for Pythium and Phytophtora.

[Nigel]

A common killer is pinkrot and symptoms are the same. Its definitely fungal, your misting is probably doing more harm than good.

Try to water from beneath and keep the surface dry.

If you have the small black sciarid flies in your greenhouse and soil they are probably carrying the infection from one plant to another.

[Trópico]

The last watering this palm received was rain water. It was outside for the warmer nights. The other palm that I keep NEXT to it at ALL times is happily alive (or so I hope!).

Subdue.. hmmm...