Cordia sebestena in Sarasota

[epicure3]

Hi! Can anyone tell me if an Orange Geiger tree would grow in Sarasota? Thanks. 

[mnorell]

Not that this is a great answer...it would, until a good frost/freeze hits there. This one is very sensitive, but as one grower just demonstrated, it can come back from the roots if the freeze isn't too long/bad. But really it is one of the most sensitive Florida natives (note that it's a Caribbean native that extends on its margins really only to the Keys, which would put freezes basically out of the picture).

[epicure3]

Ok. Sounds very marginal. Thank you. 

[Silas_Sancona]

They grow just fine in Sarasota, though are less subject to being damaged closer to the coast. 

Have to fine them again < If they're still where i'd see them > but, there were a few growing near downtown Bradenton, and in a couple yards near where i used to work in Sarasota. 

If still there also, there were a couple growing next to the swim club,  across the parking lot from Kopsick up in St. Pete.

[epicure3]

That's good news! Thanks. 

[bubba]

I think they grow perfectly fine in Sarasota. The closer towards the coast the better.

[Than]

From @pietropuccio 's website: "Very ornamental plant with cultivation limited to the tropical and subtropical zones, as it stands only for a very short time, and with loss of the foliage, temperatures around or just below 0 °C (32F)".

[bubba]

Although native to the Florida Keys, this specimen has proliferated throughout South Florida.

[Silas_Sancona]

33 minutes ago, epicure3 said:

That's good news! Thanks. 

@epicure3

Here are a couple maps via iNat w/ all observed specimens < on their site > for the Sarasota / Bradenton area..





  100% sure there are more.   Circled are specimens located in Twin Lakes Park, just east of the 75,  off Clark Rd. / 72,  and specimens located at Ringling College,  Bayfront Park <  ..near Selby Botanical,  > ...and others planted on St Armands / Lido key..  Can't remember if there were any planted on Bird Key at the park there. 

Couldn't find the exact specimens i mentioned i'd observed at the Aquatic Center nextdoor to  Kopsick, but appears there are some others nearby. One might be inside Kopsick itself,  based on zooning in on that observation, using Satellite data.






On a side note,  Noting the obvious  differences in flowers on flowering specimens, compared to C. dodecandra,   ...A common sp. in W. Mex.,   appears C. sebestena  in much more common on this side of the U.S.  than i'd have thought..  

[mnorell]

4 minutes ago, bubba said:

Although native to the Florida Keys, this specimen has proliferated throughout South Florida.

Between freezes, that is. It is really one of the most sensitive Florida-native dicots (or just of commonly cultivated dicots) to freezes. The reason they're common is because they're easily propagated and replaced, particularly in commercial landscapes, where the landscaping crews just tear out the dead/damaged stuff and quickly put in new nursery stock. But southwest Florida is far more susceptible to freezes than is southeast Florida, and Sarasota is pushing it since it is significantly north of, say, Naples. A zone 10a designation does not mean you will be 10a every winter...not by a longshot.

And a big issue is the leaf-skeletonizers, which don't harm the plant, but which many people are not aware of, and then when they see the plant looking like crap for a certain period of the year, decide they suddenly hate the thing that used to be the "pretty little tree with those beautiful orange flowers."

[bubba]

I have no photos but recall numerous large specimens that survived the 1989 freeze. For reasons unknown, they are not as prominent. This may have something to do with developers, who seem determined to utilize plain specimens.

[mnorell]

I think the best way to think of Cordia sebestena is just one of those beautiful-but-marginal plants that will likely have to be replaced at some time in the future everywhere but in 10b or warmer areas. Of course most of us know that we regularly install sensitive plants that are not long-term, even if they are widely planted. We have seen quite a few on this forum that were decimated by this year's freeze, which was far from being a record freeze. A stretch of warm years gives people undue confidence. And whether people replant them or choose a hardier alternative is just a personal decision dictated by garden attitudes, patience to see if the plant can return, or the strength of the wallet when a replacement is contemplated.

Perhaps the smartest advice if you like Cordia in a marginal area is to plant either the Yellow Geiger (Cordia lutea), which is a bit hardier and probably sensible long-term in zone 10a; or the White Geiger (Cordia boisseri), which is a solid 9b or even 9a...being extremely hardy (to 20F) and makes a gorgeous tree, even though it lacks the orange color. It is nevertheless quite showy. There are beautiful trees in the Key West cemetery and around town there. It's native from the Rio Grande Valley southward and thus very used to "Blue Northers." It's also grown all over the low desert, and even does well at the cool California coast (I noticed a beautiful blooming specimen in Balboa Park, San Diego), so a very adaptable tree. I also agree with Nathan (and he has noted this in other posts on Cordia) that the Mexican orange Cordia (C. dodecandra) is very much worth trialing for cold-hardiness, as it has been overshadowed by C. sebestena in the trade, even in Mexico...but getting plants or seeds from Mexico is not necessarily easy under current USDA regulations.

[kinzyjr]

A while back, there was some consideration among a few growers in Orlando to try growing these.  Not sure if anyone actually planted one outdoors, or if it managed to come back from the ground after most of the city saw 24F-25F this winter.

[Silas_Sancona]

55 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

A while back, there was some consideration among a few growers in Orlando to try growing these.  Not sure if anyone actually planted one outdoors, or if it managed to come back from the ground after most of the city saw 24F-25F this winter.

Maybe not something commercial landscapes might do,  but,

I wonder if folks there / in similar, extremely marginal areas treated it like something you might cut back to near the ground right before a significant cold spell,  then cover w/ heavy leaves ..couple layers of Palmetto fronds perhaps?  thru those episodes  if that would be enough to get the roots / any section of remaining trunk thru sub - 30F cold spells. 

Seems it grows fast enough, especially there,   that it would be flowering not too long again after pushing new growth, esp.  if sited in an ideal spot. 

Yea, it's St Armands  and " cold " really isn't an issue there, but,  specimen there has been planted since... ..at least..  2013,  perhaps a year or two earlier?   ( 1st shot )






..Bad quality street view shot,   but still there in '19.





iNat Obvs. from 2020 < Blue >

and again last fall < Purple >




..That's over a decade of surviving a few chilly winter evenings.   Not bad, imo.. 

[kinzyjr]

@Silas_Sancona Pretty neat!  I've driven that roundabout, but didn't notice it at the time.  Thanks for pointing it out!

[Silas_Sancona]

23 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@Silas_Sancona Pretty neat!  I've driven that roundabout, but didn't notice it at the time.  Thanks for pointing it out!

You might look over street view shots over at Bayfront Park..  Aside from Geiger trees there, from 2019,  but,  some interesting palms that may still be there ( Were as of an overhead view in 24. )


Be interesting to see how much a particular sp., planted near the entry arch,  have grown since '19. 

[mnorell]

Maybe it's time to do a "northernmost Geiger Tree" topic...

[Silas_Sancona]

8 hours ago, mnorell said:

Maybe it's time to do a "northernmost Geiger Tree" topic...

Naah,  save the measuring contest  for when we start seeing Cordia subcordata, rickseckeri,  and morelosana specimens 

[RainforestCafe]

@epicure3 there's a really nice one over at Palma sola botanical Park if you drive over there. One of the nicest and biggest orange geigers I've seen in the area. It's flowering really well right now too.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

30 minutes ago, RainforestCafe said:

@epicure3 there's a really nice one over at Palma sola botanical Park if you drive over there

 

The garden has a pretty impressive rare fruit collection as well. 

[RainforestCafe]

 

12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

The garden has a pretty impressive rare fruit collection as well. 

Yeah they've got some fun stuff over there. That area is such a great microclimate. There are some MASSIVE mango trees over there in NW Bradenton too, especially along the river. Like big grandfather live oak size, but in mangos. 

Sorry it's "somewhat" off topic, but a cool picture I took a few days ago over there at Palma sola botanical park.. royal poincianas going off!

 

[Silas_Sancona]

30 minutes ago, RainforestCafe said:

 

Yeah they've got some fun stuff over there. That area is such a great microclimate. There are some MASSIVE mango trees over there in NW Bradenton too, especially along the river. Like big grandfather live oak size, but in mangos. 

Sorry it's "somewhat" off topic, but a cool picture I took a few days ago over there at Palma sola botanical park.. royal poincianas going off!

 

 

Yep, passed plenty of the big Mangoes growing on that side of town pretty often..

If they're still there,  were some chunky Guamuchil in the same area too.