Sabal hybridization vs variability

[Phoenikakias]

Has the the community finally reached a consensus  about readiness to and frequency of hybridization between the spp? In the past several biologists and horticulturists (e.g. D Jones) shared the opinion that there are around too many hybrids within the genus. Others however  support rather the notion of polymorphism within the various spp. Which option does modern trend incline to? Can you share here any personal experience?

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Has the the community finally reached a consensus  about readiness to and frequency of hybridization between the spp? In the past several biologists and horticulturists (e.g. D Jones) shared the opinion that there are around too many hybrids within the genus. Others however  support rather the notion of polymorphism within the various spp. Which option does modern trend incline to? Can you share here any personal experience?

Some believe hybridization of some species is possible.  Hybrid ID might need a DNA analysis with the palm of interest palm and potential to be certain.  I have no information on what hybridizers have done.  Not sure why one would hybridize a sabal, they are similar and aside mauritiiformis and yapa they look similar.  Mules were motivated by the search for a cold hardy coconut like palm.  I have read some talk of how blackburniana and riverside may be hybrids.  I grew (3) blackburniana in AZ and saw the mother tree, a robust trunk with longer and ~2x thicker petioles than palmetto, bermudana, mexicana etc but not close to say causiarum.  RIverside is a very interesting sabal of unknown origin as I understand it.  I had a small riverside in AZ, fast growing for a sabal and had a nice glaucous bluish tint. Riverside is said to be a large palm, larger than blackburniana from what Ive seen.  I do note here that my causiarum flowers at a different time seasonally than the local sabal palmettos.  I read somewhere that this flowering time difference is one way that prevents hybridization.

As far as polymorphisms, no idea as there are also epigenetic adaptations to climate and soil.  Just soil and feeding can change a sabal palmetto to the point where you might suggest polymorphisms.  I have seen some really healthy sabal palmetto crowns and some real small thin ones.  Petiole thickness is not notable but width of crown is substantial.  My neighbor had a skinny triple which he changed the fertilizer/watering regimen at my suggestion and it grew a lot more leaves(half again) with longer petioles.  Genetic analysis is the way to go to answer the questions.

[Meangreen94z]

I had heard from a source and later verified through iNaturalist that Sabal uresana and rosei appear to hybridize in Sinaloa. South of where they overlap rosei is solely a green species, but blue ‘hybrids’ can be found in habitat overlap . Not definitive but definitely strong evidence.

[Phoenikakias]

13 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Some believe hybridization of some species is possible.  Hybrid ID might need a DNA analysis with the palm of interest palm and potential to be certain.  I have no information on what hybridizers have done.  Not sure why one would hybridize a sabal, they are similar and aside mauritiiformis and yapa they look similar.  Mules were motivated by the search for a cold hardy coconut like palm.  I have read some talk of how blackburniana and riverside may be hybrids.  I grew (3) blackburniana in AZ and saw the mother tree, a robust trunk with longer and ~2x thicker petioles than palmetto, bermudana, mexicana etc but not close to say causiarum.  RIverside is a very interesting sabal of unknown origin as I understand it.  I had a small riverside in AZ, fast growing for a sabal and had a nice glaucous bluish tint. Riverside is said to be a large palm, larger than blackburniana from what Ive seen.  I do note here that my causiarum flowers at a different time seasonally than the local sabal palmettos.  I read somewhere that this flowering time difference is one way that prevents hybridization.

As far as polymorphisms, no idea as there are also epigenetic adaptations to climate and soil.  Just soil and feeding can change a sabal palmetto to the point where you might suggest polymorphisms.  I have seen some really healthy sabal palmetto crowns and some real small thin ones.  Petiole thickness is not notable but width of crown is substantial.  My neighbor had a skinny triple which he changed the fertilizer/watering regimen at my suggestion and it grew a lot more leaves(half again) with longer petioles.  Genetic analysis is the way to go to answer the questions.

 

8 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I had heard from a source and later verified through iNaturalist that Sabal uresana and rosei appear to hybridize in Sinaloa. South of where they overlap rosei is solely a green species, but blue ‘hybrids’ can be found in habitat overlap . Not definitive but definitely strong evidence.

 

What a coincidence @Meangreen94z

This issue has become again of interest to me, because another grower suspects that seedlings from my bermudana may be hybrids with Sabal rosei, which also exists in my garden, and blooming times overlap. He claims the bermudana seedling from the first seed batch (when I had cut off all flower buds rosei before expanding) is greener and softer, while the seedlings from the second batch (when both palm were left blooming to the end) are bluer with a rougher texture. First picture shows on the left side seedlings from the second batch and on the right one seedling from the first batch.

I have also grown seedlings from the first bermudana batch and kept also a seedling of rosei about one from seed set before blooming of bermudana.  On the left bermudana seedlings and on the right rosei seedling.

And another solitary bermudana seedling on the left compared to same rosei seedling

[sonoranfans]

I find that blue tinted "Rosei appearing" sabal.  Other than color it doesn't look like an uresana with the thinish petioles and more narrow crown.  No reason to think they dont naturally hybridize if they flower at the same time and are nearby in numbers.  Even among Uresanas the color varies quite a bit and it occurs with a regional habitat difference.  Might be some long term natural hybridization led to the more green ones.   

[Meangreen94z]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I find that blue tinted "Rosei appearing" sabal.  Other than color it doesn't look like an uresana with the thinish petioles and more narrow crown.  No reason to think they dont naturally hybridize if they flower at the same time and are nearby in numbers.  Even among Uresanas the color varies quite a bit and it occurs with a regional habitat difference.  Might be some long term natural hybridization led to the more green ones.   

The blue color and the lower section of the leaf segments droop like uresana. I included pictures of pure rosei south of where they overlap to compare.

hybrid appearing specimen:

Pure Sabal rosei south of where they overlap: