Why are sabals not popular in California

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

I don’t think I have ever seen a sabal in private or commercial landscaping. I haven’t seen them at ant box stores. Only place Ive ever seen one is at a specialty exotic palm nursery. Why is that? Im sure they grow just fine in California. 

[OutpostPalms]

I think people will say climate as the reason. Most sabals like humidity and ample rainfall with hot summers. They’d need to be irrigated heavily in many areas. Other areas may not give them the summer heat. Also there are other species like Washingtonia that enjoy the climate better, grow faster, and looks similar to sabal. I think uresana would be a good sabal for California but it’s mostly going to be enthusiasts like us that grow them. 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

I don’t think I have ever seen a sabal in private or commercial landscaping. I haven’t seen them at ant box stores. Only place Ive ever seen one is at a specialty exotic palm nursery. Why is that? Im sure they grow just fine in California. 

 

42 minutes ago, OutpostPalms said:

I think people will say climate as the reason. Most sabals like humidity and ample rainfall with hot summers. They’d need to be irrigated heavily in many areas. Other areas may not give them the summer heat. Also there are other species like Washingtonia that enjoy the climate better, grow faster, and looks similar to sabal. I think uresana would be a good sabal for California but it’s mostly going to be enthusiasts like us that grow them. 

Exactly! They are east coast palms supposed to grow in the west coast with all implied complications. Water is one, soil pH is another. Put in to equation also the great variety of other more elegant, feather palms suitable for Califorinia, and there you have the answer.

[sonoranfans]

Most sabals are slow compared to the alternatives for most people.  Washingtonia robusta or filifera are popular widely out west and are fast growers.  Among many palms enthusiasts I think fan palms in general are not what they are looking for.  Feather palms are more popular in general.  There are many choices in california, and some members do have sabals and they look very happy so its not the weather.  I think sabals are most popular in colder zones, 9B and lower.  They do grow a bit faster than CA sabals but "sabal steve" has shown that S causiarum grows fast in california, he has a monster.  If you go to a palm nursery in california you might see 100 species available and the vast number are pinnate palms.  I'd say the choices there are vast and if you are unlimited by weather few will be sabals are hundreds of species are available and pinnate palms look more tropical in general.  Sabal palmettos and some other sabals are slow in florida to so they plant them with 10' of trunk.  I have grown my sabals(uresana, causiarum) from strap leaf seedlings.  But in my yard they represent only 2/65 palms, a small percentage.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, OutpostPalms said:

I think people will say climate as the reason. Most sabals like humidity and ample rainfall with hot summers. They’d need to be irrigated heavily in many areas. Other areas may not give them the summer heat. Also there are other species like Washingtonia that enjoy the climate better, grow faster, and looks similar to sabal. I think uresana would be a good sabal for California but it’s mostly going to be enthusiasts like us that grow them. 

This isn't completely correct..  While not " Humid " when compared to S.E.'rn US standards,  typical, annual humidity levels in much of CA are more than adequate for most  ...if not all... the Sabal sps..   Heat is good enough as well,  except maybe in a few spots like San Francisco < though i'm sure the commonest sps would  do < are doing?? >  fine there > and always chilly areas along the north coast, north of San Fran. 

Even here in  the ...much drier.. / Quite a bit hotter   low desert section of  AZ there are folks growing perfect looking " Eastern " Sabals


..If they will grow well here,  no doubt, they'll do fine in CA.   ...more parts of the state than not at least.  




BIG part of the reason Washingtonia could be considered the most common fan palm in this part of the world, compared to Sabal sps.  comes down to which was introduced here, first..

..To that end, everyone can thank the Spanish explorers for bringing W. robusta w/ them from Mexico  ..On a much more visible - to -all scale than probably had been seen at the time, even if the species / form of Washingtonia itself were already present in specific spots in say AZ or areas of CA closest to the Gulf of CA / Sea of Cortez.. 

Canary Island Palms, and Schinus molle, aka " CA " Pepper Tree  were additional  " Spanish Settler imports "  brought into CA ( and AZ ) when they settled missions and larger homesteads / Ranchos. 

They probably liked W. filifera so much when they saw it that it too became a popular thing to plant on their ranches / within Mission gardens.. 


After that? newer settlers in CA " caught the bug " ..so to say,  and sealed the  " iconic status "  fate of both Washingtonia and Phoenix canariensis..  Pretty sure you can toss in Jubea as well, though i think it was a later import that didn't garner quite the same level of popularity compared to Canaries at that time..   Could be wrong ofcourse..

No one ( that we know of )  brought Sabal -anything-  species with them when they headed west from the eastern US,  so...   It is only now that people in the west are being introduced to that Genus of Palms. 

In time, if promoted,  they'll probably take their place in " Palm Star Status " in CA landscapes..



....Reverse is a big reason why Sabal  ..palmetto in particular..  is the eastern / southeastern US  equivalent  " Washingtonia "  ..It is what was around,  well known,  and easy to access.. 

..Folks there didn't know what a " Washingtonia " was until much later in time.. 


As far as Sabal uresana,   carefully study the climate where it grows in Mexico, both forms of it..   ...somewhat Southeastern US -ish, minus the constant Arctic Invasion threats during the winters, esp. along the coastal plain..   Not quite the same as what people associate with California  ..For the moment at least.  

It is however the Saba sp.l i myself would widely promote out there,  before all others except species within " Caribbean " group.   

" Slow " is a word used only by the " i want instant gratification clan "    To the rest of us, Sabal do,  what they do after planting.. 

Treated well, they'll get to where we hope they do,  when they do..  
 

1 hour ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

I don’t think I have ever seen a sabal in private or commercial landscaping. I haven’t seen them at ant box stores. Only place Ive ever seen one is at a specialty exotic palm nursery. Why is that? Im sure they grow just fine in California. 

See the above..

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

I genuinely don’t think it has any thing to do with climate. I have seen Sabals as far as Virginia. A much colder climate than what they’re native to, if water were the issue there would be no palms in San Diego. It’s the most temperate coast, but one of the driest with only 10-12 inches of rain a year on average. Yet, most of the exotic palm nurseries are located in SD. 

I guess we do have the west coast alternative in the Washingtonia, but still it’s weird that no big box stores ever sell a native palm. Sabals like Washingtonias are hardy. I see trachycarpus everywhere, yet no sabals. It’s just odd. 

[SeanK]

I must agree with @sonoranfans; folks want quick results. They want the landscape to look mature in 3 years, if not 3 months. That's why W.robusta is everywhere, moreso than W.filifera.

Rare to see Braheas in Cali landscapes. Money, size, and speed.

[aabell]

Sabal palmetto has always been the go-to landscaping palm in the southeast because we already had millions of them available to dig up and move around. Some people appreciate them as a valuable native species but to most people a palm is a palm and the cheapest, readily available option is the best option.

Even here in Florida, Washingtonia are much faster than Sabal, and I can't imagine they are very profitable for any of the nurseries out there to grow compared to other fan palms.

So yes, California's climate is great for growing Sabal, especially some of the Mexican species, but there isn't much supply or demand.

Same as it is here, there's hundreds of palms that grow well in south Florida but you'll have a hard time finding more than five or six different species at a big box store. Most people are happy with a triple Adonidia in front of their house and hedge of "Areca" palms around the back. Best to fit in with the neighbors, not stand out.

It's very rare to see big Cuban Copernicia around here, as another example. Commercial nurseries would be insane to invest in growing them when Bismarckia are an option.  

[SeanK]

3 minutes ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

I genuinely don’t think it has any thing to do with climate. I have seen Sabals as far as Virginia. A much colder climate than what they’re native to, if water were the issue there would be no palms in San Diego. It’s the most temperate coast, but one of the driest with only 10-12 inches of rain a year on average. Yet, most of the exotic palm nurseries are located in SD. 

I guess we do have the west coast alternative in the Washingtonia, but still it’s weird that no big box stores ever sell a native palm. Sabals like Washingtonias are hardy. I see trachycarpus everywhere, yet no sabals. It’s just odd. 

T.fortunei is much faster from seed than S.palmetto.

[sonoranfans]

Speed of growth is important to those who think they may not be in their permanent home.  Sabals like heat so they will grow fastest in inland CA.  Sabal palmettos are painfully slow even in their native habitat with plenty of fertilizer and water.  Nurseries dont want to keep a palm for 5 years so they can sell it.  5 yrs from seed for some sabals is a 10 gallon size.   5 years of care including fertilization means a higher price, less profit, and less sales throughput for a fixed size nursery.  If I had a nursery I probably wouldnt offer any sabals aside causiarum, which is very fast.  I grew what was called "sabal blackburniana"(bigger than palmetto) in arizona and saw the mother tree, it was not as big as a causiarum but the petioles were 2-3x thicker than palmetto.   With 8" rain a year and super hot temps they did well.   Sabals are a loser for nurseries unless they are selling in zone 8-9b where just 2-3 percent of all palm species can grow.

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

6 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I must agree with @sonoranfans; folks want quick results. They want the landscape to look mature in 3 years, if not 3 months. That's why W.robusta is everywhere, moreso than W.filifera.

Rare to see Braheas in Cali landscapes. Money, size, and speed.

If that were true, why is the slow growing Pheonix Canariensis the second most popular palm? @Silas_Sancona makes a point about it being here via the Spanish, so I guess that makes sense. But if people are against slow growing palms you would think it wouldn’t be as popular. I don’t think speed growth has anything to do with it. In many scenarios, slow growing is better. I much prefer a slow growing palms that will be eye view, rather than a Washingtonia which is what I call a “skyline” palm. It brings macro aesthetic, but they don’t do much for your personal garden in my opinion.

[aabell]

16 minutes ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

If that were true, why is the slow growing Pheonix Canariensis the second most popular palm? @Silas_Sancona makes a point about it being here via the Spanish, so I guess that makes sense. But if people are against slow growing palms you would think it wouldn’t be as popular. I don’t think speed growth has anything to do with it. In many scenarios, slow growing is better. I much prefer a slow growing palms that will be eye view, rather than a Washingtonia which is what I call a “skyline” palm. It brings macro aesthetic, but they don’t do much for your personal garden in my opinion.

CIDP is attractive and useful as a landscaping palm before it even starts trunking. I wouldn't say that's true for any Sabal except for S. minor. There's also a logistical problem of not being able to grow Sabal in a field and transplant them up until a certain size without killing them. 

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the thing is, you are a self described "palm enthusiast". Your opinions and mine aren't relevant to how most people think about palms. (Which is to say, they haven't put much thought into them at all and are just doing what's easy and cheap)

[sonoranfans]

2 minutes ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

If that were true, why is the slow growing Pheonix Canariensis the second most popular palm? @Silas_Sancona makes a point about it being here via the Spanish, so I guess that makes sense. But if people are against slow growing palms you would think it wouldn’t be as popular. I don’t think speed growth has anything to do with it. In many scenarios, slow growing is better. I much prefer a slow growing palms that will be eye view, rather than a Washingtonia which is what I call a “skyline” palm. It brings macro aesthetic, but they don’t do much for your personal garden in my opinion.

CIDP is not nearly as slow as sabal palmetto, and they are one of the few choices for a really cold hardy pinnate palm.  ANd people like the pineapple look architecturally.  Most of the CIDP I saw in CA were public plantings and you can grow a phoenix in the heat with much less maintenance than any sabal.  They are tough in the desert too, less needy of water than any sabal.  Water is expensive out west in my recollection.  

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

18 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

CIDP is not nearly as slow as sabal palmetto, and they are one of the few choices for a really cold hardy pinnate palm.  ANd people like the pineapple look architecturally.  Most of the CIDP I saw in CA were public plantings and you can grow a phoenix in the heat with much less maintenance than any sabal.  They are tough in the desert too, less needy of water than any sabal.  Water is expensive out west in my recollection.  

No the canary date is everywhere, one of the most popular landscaping palms in all of California. Commercial landscaping palms tend to use the robusta or the pheonix dactylifera in inland areas, and king and queen palms are used in more coastal areas for commercial landscaping. The only canary dates that are in commercial landscapes are from 60-70 years ago, they’re way too expensive for commercial landscaping. The water honestly is a non-issue. The third most popular palm is a queen palm and it requires more water than a sabal. 

[Silas_Sancona]

11 minutes ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

canary date is everywhere, one of the most popular landscaping palms in all of California.

You better believe it is, lol...   There isn't a neighborhood built in / near San Jose / overall Bay Area where you won't  see a Canary..  UNLESS the home owner had them removed ...which i'd witnessed numerous times before leaving the area.

While not quite as " sprout -y " as Washingtonia,  guaranteed,  you'll find " Feral " Canaries along creeks / other consistently moist areas, esp down in S. Cal. w/out too much effort. 

Those feral specimens were some of the first SAPW  started turning up in down there. 

 

[Jim in Los Altos]

6 hours ago, OutpostPalms said:

I think people will say climate as the reason. Most sabals like humidity and ample rainfall with hot summers. They’d need to be irrigated heavily in many areas. Other areas may not give them the summer heat. Also there are other species like Washingtonia that enjoy the climate better, grow faster, and looks similar to sabal. I think uresana would be a good sabal for California but it’s mostly going to be enthusiasts like us that grow them. 

Lots of commonly planted palms in CA need extra water to survive. Syagrus, Archontophoenix, Howea, etc. They all need more water than most Sabal species. By the way, I have a humongous Sabal bermudana on my side yard.  

[mnorell]

My own experience with Sabal when living in southwestern Mississippi was that S. palmetto and S. causiarum are quite fast-growing providing they are grown from a roughly one-gallon size placed into their permanent spot in the ground in an amenable position. I planted a half-dozen Sabal palmetto of that size around our house there ca. 2005. By 2014 they were about 10' O.A. and a 2024 Google Streetview shows them at about 25-27' (height of the house). Meanwhile around 2006 a friend there bought about a dozen good-sized field-dug (about 12') specimens from a contractor in Baton Rouge and had them craned in and planted in her courtyard. They grew very slowly and today are probably only a few feet higher than they were at planting, which I attribute to issues with transplantation in this genus. Caveat here being that I planted those small palms that grew so well in full sun with southwestern exposure. Others I planted in a north-facing courtyard position were only six feet tall when we sold the house in 2019! So position, sun, heat makes all the difference in the world.

And S. causiarum purchased in one-gallon size from YuccaDo Nursery around the same time grew like rocketships, even in semi-shade. They were also as tall as the house within about 12 years. Meanwhile S. mexicana grew significantly slower (but still nicely) in our courtyard and I believe I had either a small S. uresana or S. rosei and a S. maritima in a good amount of shade that barely grew in about a dozen years.

As far as California goes, there are Sabal species planted around here and there...the L.A. County Arboretum has quite a number that were planted I think in the '50s. They look fine in general after all these years but S. bermudana has always seemed to me to have a very nice and unique appearance in the cooler California climate areas, and seems to be the best adapted for those areas judging by its somewhat cool native locality (and per Jim's comment above, thriving in Los Altos Hills); with S. 'Riverside' doing very well also in the inland areas in particular. But it's understandable that they would never gain popularity in coastal areas where nights are perpetually cool and there are so many other choices that grow faster. There are quite a number of what I think are S. 'Riverside' here in the Palm Springs area...at the Indio Polo Grounds there is a large planting of very nice specimens I believe to be of the 'Riverside' ilk. Another one that I think is a 'Riverside' is planted in front of a house a couple of blocks from our house here in Rancho Mirage. I'm sure there are plenty more if you look carefully around the Coachella Valley.

It's a fallacy that Sabal species need humidity. The only thing that humidity really gives them is a climate with automatic warm nights during the warm season. Since palms grow at night, and most Sabal really need heat, it follows logic that they are a perfect fit for humid areas with warm nights for maximum growth. But we also have warm nights here in the desert for much of the year, and many people in desert areas (quite a few documented in Arizona) around this forum have had good success I believe. I'm growing quite a few species but they're all small at present but seem perfectly happy from the low 30s to the mid-120s F. But again I think it's those warm nights  that make the difference in reasonable vs. unreasonable growth rates.

Here's the most recent (2024) Google streetview image showing two of those S. palmetto I planted back in 2005 in Natchez, Mississippi, 19 years from a one-gallon mail-order:

[sonoranfans]

Water needs in the desert are more revealing than a Mediterranean climate.  CIDP thrive in the desert in a way no sabal ever did for me( I had uresana(1), blackburniana(3), bermudana(1), and riverside.(1).  Of these sabals only uresana (blue) was good in late day arizona sun in the heat, others would get desiccated and burn even when I was watering 3x a week for 4 hours.  No better place to learn water needs than the desert.  #1 palm in dry tolerance was washingtonia filifera, number 2 was phoenix dactylifera.  CIDP was less water needy than any of my sabals, and only S uresana was close in dry tolerance.  Arizona was all about washies and phoenix, not sabals.  I grew some nice sabals by giving them late day and partial mid shade.  CIDP do not like too much water, they ar enot nearly as needy as sabals in the desert.  

AI Overview

 

Canary Island date palm root rot, often caused by waterlogged soil and Phytophthora fungi, presents as yellowing/browning fronds, stunted growth, and mushy, dark roots. It is commonly caused by overwatering. Treatment involves reducing water, improving soil drainage, pruning infected roots, and applying fungicides like Subdue MAXX. 

 

CIDP is less dependent on water once established

AI Overview

 

Canary Island Date Palms (Phoenix canariensis) need regular water when young but become drought-tolerant once established. Young or newly planted trees require deep, consistent watering 1-2 times weekly for the first 12–18 months. Mature palms prefer deep soaking during dry, hot weather, but can survive on minimal supplemental water due to their deep roots and water-storing trunks. 

[sonoranfans]

The canary islands get 6-7" rainfall a year and sabal habitat(most are in the Carribean) get 40-55" rainfall a year.  THe CIDP are far better in the arizona desert as they are less water needy.  I was there 10 years growing sabals and phoenix sp, phoenix come from dry or seasonally dry areas, so they are genetically adapted to that drier climate.  Arguing the reverse makes no sense genetically and my experiences in the desert validate that.  CIDP are going to be less water needy and if I have to guarantee thesurvigval of a palm for even one year, I'm selling that CIDP, not a sabal.  Same thing for washie filifera, easy care if you have the heat and don't overwater.  Filiferas hate cold damp roots in winter and are even more susceptible to root rot than CIDP.  

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

12 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

The canary islands get 6-7" rainfall a year and sabal habitat(most are in the Carribean) get 40-55" rainfall a year.  THe CIDP are far better in the arizona desert as they are less water needy.  I was there 10 years growing sabals and phoenix sp, phoenix come from dry or seasonally dry areas, so they are genetically adapted to that drier climate.  Arguing the reverse makes no sense genetically and my experiences in the desert validate that.  CIDP are going to be less water needy and if I have to guarantee thesurvigval of a palm for even one year, I'm selling that CIDP, not a sabal.  Same thing for washie filifera, easy care if you have the heat and don't overwater.  Filiferas hate cold damp roots in winter and are even more susceptible to root rot than CIDP.  

This thread is about California not Arizona, they’re two different climates. Are you saying that sabals are too difficult to grow in California? I highly doubt that, the water bill being too expensive I don’t think is a reason either many people plant queens, kings and kentias that are thirstier. I do not think climate or water is the issue. Most of California is a temperate climate that can grow a lot of things with irrigation, Central Valley has some of the best spoil in the country and its where a lot of fruits and vegetables are produced for the entire country. 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Canary Island date palm root rot, often caused by waterlogged soil and Phytophthora fungi, presents as yellowing/browning fronds, stunted growth, and mushy, dark roots. It is commonly caused by overwatering

So much for A.I. based    ".... information " 

 


https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/165816098

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/343398642

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/201601423

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/91731347

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/253343323

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/35392458

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/111262649

 

[mnorell]

Sabals have long been established in California, Franceschi (and probably a number of other pioneering horticultural pioneers and nurserymen in the burgeoning region) was working with them in the late 19th century and there are today specimens of many species scattered around the entire region, in botanical gardens or other landscapes. In Santa Clarita you have a rather hot inland climate and you can probably grow all the species (maybe depending on your microclimate with rare damage to S. mauritiiformis or S. yapa). They are not harmed by low humidity, at least I've never noticed this on specimens I've seen over the years in SoCal, and barring any extreme drought/water-restriction issues that may crop up in future, they're probably not going to die from lack of water, certainly not after establishment and if there's a water-table available (and note that the L.A. County Arboretum's collection of Sabal species enjoys a notably high natural water-table). But certainly there are species better adapted than others. Tom's notes on S. uresana are indicative of how well adapted some species may be to the hotter interior areas where resources may be harder to provide, whether that may be Arizona or California, and I agree with him that something from Sonora is likely going to be better adapted to the rigors that may face a palm in the dry interior of California. Along those lines, I plant S. mauritiiformis in protected, shadier areas here at my landscape in the desert but I'm not worrying about S. yapa, since the latter is a heliophyte growing in open savannas, whereas S. mauritiiformis is a denizen mostly of Central American jungles and would likely resent an open exposure here. Researching these details can be revealing and informative, at least as a starting point in selecting species for your area. In the coastal belt S. bermudana and S. mauritiiformis, with 'Riverside' coming up behind them, seem to be the most discussed species by growers on this forum, and that, too, can be used as a clue.

But there are a couple of factors that influence the usage of certain palms, one of those being how unique in appearance the palm is, and how quickly it satisfies the needs of the landscape designer/owner. Human patience and plant patience are two different things, and the growth-rate of most of these species in the cooler coastal zones is what makes them less attractive to homeowners and designers/landscape architects, and in particular nurserymen are not going to be jumping at any of these species because they're not going to be making money when they have to hold stock for many years before it's saleable. So larger specimens have to be imported from hotter areas, whether that be desert or the southeast/Florida. Which is expensive. And when you can buy a Brahea or a Washingtonia for a fraction of the price and get a nice specimen sooner, the dust settles and you're left with a genus that gets overlooked by most.

And as I noted above from my experiences with S. palmetto in Mississippi (of course a very different climate) there was a huge difference in growth in sun-soaked, really hot-hot areas where they raced skyward vs. the north side of that two-story house in a very leafy courtyard, where they hardly budged over more than a decade, only 30 feet away. So your positioning of them is very important. If you really want a Sabal, go ahead and plant it. But research can be valuable. Drive over to the Huntington, and also to the L.A. County Arboretum, and look at their collections and see which appeal to you, look at the tags to get a clue how many years it has taken for them to reach their current size. Take into consideration your own climate and microclimate, heat-units, night temperatures, etc., and your possible needs for quick growth. That should guide you toward finding the species that will work at your location.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Filiferas hate cold damp roots in winter and are even more susceptible to root rot than CIDP.  

Not true of either Washingtonia sp.   ...locally at least.    Pretty sure there are plenty of " water side  " W. filifera growing around both natural and man made Oasis in CA < and Baja > as well. 



...More examples....

Tempe...














Tucson...

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

This thread is about California not Arizona, they’re two different climates. Are you saying that sabals are too difficult to grow in California? I highly doubt that, the water bill being too expensive I don’t think is a reason either many people plant queens, kings and kentias that are thirstier. I do not think climate or water is the issue. Most of California is a temperate climate that can grow a lot of things with irrigation, Central Valley has some of the best spoil in the country and its where a lot of fruits and vegetables are produced for the entire country. 

Don Hodel in his three articles had highlighted several times the frequent potassium deficiency of Sabal specimens growing in CA. 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not true of either Washingtonia sp.   ...locally at least.    Pretty sure there are plenty of " water side  " W. filifera growing around both natural and man made Oasis in CA < and Baja > as well. 



...More examples....

Tempe...














Tucson...







 

I guess all depends on how intense is the cold and damp situation. 

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

I guess all depends on how intense is the cold and damp situation. 

While anything " cold " is rare up here, specimens growing at the pictured Oasis in Tucson ( Agua Caliente Park, Tanque Verde area well east of downtown Tucson )  can see winter time lows in the lower 20s / high teens F,  ..and anywhere from a dusting to a couple inches of snow once or twice during one of our  ..increasingly rarer..  colder winters.  

While true that those conditions don't occur every year  ...or for an entire winter season,    both factors don't seem to bother even the specimens whose trunks are dunked in water at that time. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

Just one Sabal (burmudana) in my garden of well over 100 different palm species but I love it. The photo doesn’t show how massive it actually is very well. 
 

[Hu Palmeras]

Everyone should understand that Spanish colonists also brought date palms to America. Spanish culture received them from the Phoenicians (Canaanites) in antiquity, and later from the Arabs and Jews. The date palm itself was already depicted in the great Temple of King Solomon when European civilization did not yet exist. 

Later, these Spaniards, dominating the West and discovering America, also discovered a paradise full of palm trees that you marvel at and which you also managed to conquer.

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

Im tempted to buy a sabal just to prove naysayers wrong. The sabal is a tough palm like the washingtonia. If we can grow Howeas, Archontophoenix, and syagrus the sabal should be no issue at all. 

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

8 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not true of either Washingtonia sp.   ...locally at least.    Pretty sure there are plenty of " water side  " W. filifera growing around both natural and man made Oasis in CA < and Baja > as well. 



...More examples....

Tempe...














Tucson...

Yes they’re always in or near water in natural habitat.

[Hu Palmeras]

Sabal plants are beautiful and very tropical, some more so than others. I have Sabal Riverside plants, which are more resistant to Chile's freezing climate.

[sonoranfans]

22 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not true of either Washingtonia sp.   ...locally at least.    Pretty sure there are plenty of " water side  " W. filifera growing around both natural and man made Oasis in CA < and Baja > as well. 



...More examples....

Tempe...














Tucson...

Cold is key to fungal infection, arizona soils are generally not very cold in winter since even when temps dropped to 21F in 2007 it was 60F by 2PM.   Longer cold spells with too much irrigation can be an issue.  Northern CA and coastal soils are much cooler in winters than inland Cal where everything dries out faster.  Also there is Plenty of dry ground around those AZ washies to grow roots.   If I grow one next to a slab, half the roots will see cont8inual moisture and half will not.   Habitat for W filifera in AZ is at 4500 feet elevation NW of phoenix with steep slopes where water is very temporary from rainfall.  No fossils were ever discovered int he sonoran desert where tempe is.

ufl.edu

https://ask.ifas.ufl.edu › publication › pdf

Filiferas get root rot in Florida due to overwatering.  

[sonoranfans]

I think the fact that there are a low number of sabals in CA has many reasons.  There is no one reason, things are not that simple.

If you really want to know, ask a nurseryman in california why they don't offer many sabals, seed is super cheap.  You cant buy what they dont carry and give me a reason why choose a sabal over prichardia or bismarckia if you want a less common fan palm(dont want a washie).   Conduct a poll here among californians and see who wants to grow a yard with multiple sabals.  Then look where they live coastal or inland.  Or ask if a sabal is a top 5 palm for them.  

Sabals can be grown in california, the one that inspired me to buy a causiarum was from between LA and san diego on elevated ground(above sea level) and inland a bit but with lots of trees/vegetation on the lot(none overhead).  But perhaps 80% of growers know nothing about palm choices.  The grower of the saba Causiarum I was inspired by was a knowledgeable, grower and yes it was rare in CA 15 years ago and still is.  It was a monster similar to mine these days.  But if you want an idiot proof palm to sell with a warranty, I don't think nurseries want a sabal.  

"Hard to grow" depends on how much effort you want to put in.  For palm aficionados its different than most people who want something that will look nice with low effort.  I see all kinds of palm abuse around me in florida from low effort.  One guy ripped out a bismarckia with 6' clear trunk that had lost half the crown in hurricane milton.  I still maintain that californians have many choices, hundreds even, and they are not particularly inspired by sabals.  I am willing to bet that 75% of all palm talkers would choose a feather palm over a fan palm.  The market is the market and what is not offered will limit what is grown.  Ask Phil at Jungle Music why he doesnt sell many sabals.

[sonoranfans]

14 hours ago, SCVpalmenthusiast said:

Im tempted to buy a sabal just to prove naysayers wrong. The sabal is a tough palm like the washingtonia. If we can grow Howeas, Archontophoenix, and syagrus the sabal should be no issue at all. 

this is silly, I have grown them in AZ, what will you prove in santa clarita?  I said they are not as easy as CIDP, you mad ehta tcomparison, not me.  I also said they were slow in CA, particularly coastal california where most of the people live and winters are long and cool.  Most palms grow faster than sabal in california, except the hotter inland areas where sabals like that heat.  You can "prove " it again but it was proven long ago that they grow inland.  But what you actually asked is why they are not more common.  Visit a nursery and ask them, they talk to their customers directly.  You cant prove why californians aren't growing more sabals by growing one.  California weather is highly variable so the key should be where do they grow them?  

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

32 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I think the fact that there are a low number of sabals in CA has many reasons.  There is no one reason, things are not that simple.

If you really want to know, ask a nurseryman in california why they don't offer many sabals, seed is super cheap.  You cant buy what they dont carry and give me a reason why choose a sabal over prichardia or bismarckia if you want a less common fan palm(dont want a washie).   Conduct a poll here among californians and see who wants to grow a yard with multiple sabals.  Then look where they live coastal or inland.  Or ask if a sabal is a top 5 palm for them.  

Sabals can be grown in california, the one that inspired me to buy a causiarum was from between LA and san diego on elevated ground(above sea level) and inland a bit but with lots of trees/vegetation on the lot(none overhead).  But perhaps 80% of growers know nothing about palm choices.  The grower of the saba Causiarum I was inspired by was a knowledgeable, grower and yes it was rare in CA 15 years ago and still is.  It was a monster similar to mine these days.  But if you want an idiot proof palm to sell with a warranty, I don't think nurseries want a sabal.  

"Hard to grow" depends on how much effort you want to put in.  For palm aficionados its different than most people who want something that will look nice with low effort.  I see all kinds of palm abuse around me in florida from low effort.  One guy ripped out a bismarckia with 6' clear trunk that had lost half the crown in hurricane milton.  I still maintain that californians have many choices, hundreds even, and they are not particularly inspired by sabals.  I am willing to bet that 75% of all palm talkers would choose a feather palm over a fan palm.  The market is the market and what is not offered will limit what is grown.  Ask Phil at Jungle Music why he doesnt sell many sabals.

I think I will start asking nurseries. I think the truth is people don’t know about them, only palm aficionados know about the differences between a sabal and a washingtonia. Most people would assume they’re the same. I think if there were sabals at at box store. I bet plenty of people would buy them. The issue is that they’re not readily available. I can only find them at specialty nurseries that sell varieties of dypsis and other palms that require mor water and care. It’s crazy to me that the king and kentia both more popular and easier to find, both native to Australia the opposite side of the world. Sabals are hardy, tough and native to the country. Its truly bizarre.

[Hu Palmeras]

My lord, the whole truth. Here in Chile, it's the Jubaea chilensis palm. Some people like it, while others look for different types of palm trees. And they don't know that it's the most expensive palm tree in the world, selling for a very high price when mature. My Belgian friend Michel Lancel explained it to me. So sometimes people confuse exotic or tropical palm trees with majestic (elegant) palm trees. There are exotic palm trees, and there are others that are tropical in appearance. And then there are the palm trees that are adorned (majestic).

[DoomsDave]

Hmm, interesting topic @SCVpalmenthusiast! 

Sabals as a group grow great in non-desert California and have a lot to recommend them. They’re tough and take the cold and they’re not fussy about soil. Heat is no problem outside the desert. They’re not spiny and won’t get that shaggy appearance that Washies often do,  if you clean them once in a while.

The trouble with them is they’re slow, and can take decades to form a trunk. Bismarckias are pretty too and a lot faster growing, which I think explains their much greater popularity.

[LJG]

Sabal’s are all over California. But certainly more in niche palm gardens. Many people don’t grow them here because of speed of growth (compared to other Palmate palms like Pritchardia), eventual size, they suffer K deficiency with the lower leaves unsightly yellow and brown, but also, a prevalent attitude toward them in Cali. To coin the palm legend Bob De Jong, they are “Sablah”.

There will be another reason they won’t be seen more in Cali, the SPW loves them  

Also, both Washingtonias excel in high water areas. The issue with Florida comes from water-logged alkaline soil. 

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

1 hour ago, LJG said:

Sabal’s are all over California. But certainly more in niche palm gardens. Many people don’t grow them here because of speed of growth (compared to other Palmate palms like Pritchardia), eventual size, they suffer K deficiency with the lower leaves unsightly yellow and brown, but also, a prevalent attitude toward them in Cali. To coin the palm legend Bob De Jong, they are “Sablah”.

There will be another reason they won’t be seen more in Cali, the SPW loves them  

Also, both Washingtonias excel in high water areas. The issue with Florida comes from water-logged alkaline soil. 

But I am thinking not like a palm enthusiast, and more like a general person. How would the public know they’re slow growing. The Filifera is slow growing as well. I genuinely think people would be okay if it were actually available in nurseries. I have only found them in specialty nurseries that cater to palm aficionados. 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, LJG said:

but also, a prevalent attitude toward them in Cali. To coin the palm legend Bob De Jong, they are “Sablah”.

" Sablah..  "  ..That is kind of funny,    ...and kind of sad too since  ..i myself at least.  would rather deal with maintenance on these,  rather than the " tell everyone i fought off a pack of Bobcats ..or Reef Sharks..  "  instead of "  Gashes, galore = " trimming my Saw - bladed Washingtonia.. "   ...That is if trimming them doesn't end up killing you   ..Another Washingtonia - trimming death happened ..about a week..  ago  locally btw.. 

W. filifera  aside,  Sabal  have a more appealing look,  imo, of course..  compared to Mex. Fans and some other " Fan -ys ". 

Would take a yard full of the bluest Brahea and Sabal uresana  specimens possible,  over Bizzies any day,  too.  Great palm,  ..if you have the space.  A little too much,  if you don't. 

The " but, their slow "  thoughts?   Who gives a S-----  how  " slow " or " fast "  they  ..or any of the others that take their time,  like Brahea  might grow..   

Plant,  Kick back,  and enjoy the " watch - em' - grow "  show,   ..While you can.  

Want " Fast " ?  Throw on some Leather -y,   Adult -themed clothing  ..and plant some Bougainvillea.. 🤷🏽‍♂️