People afraid of tall palms

[osideterry]

The neighbor thread has me thinking of another weird bias I've noticed.

I work 1-2 times a month with a local palm nursery (hey Johnny, how's it goin') and I've noticed a lot of folks just don't care for palms that get more than 15 ft tall. You'll be showing them palms, and they ask how tall it gets, and when you say 25-30ft, they make a face like someone nearby has flatulence. It doesn't seem to be related to powerlines or overhead obstacles.

Often, these same people's biggest complaint is that they can't grow a lot of tropical plants because they don't have any shade in their yards.

Anyone else notice this bias?

[deezpalms]

Yeah, I've seen this before. You have to qualify your customer and tell them how fast/slow it grows and how long it can take for the tree to get there. If you're selling queens or robusta's yes they'll get very tall in 10 years or so but if it's a Chambeyronia it will eventually reach a nice height but it will take many more years to get there. I've sold several reclinata's to people who didn't want a palm that would get huge but I told them that it will take many years to reach 20' and when it does you sell it and get another smaller one to replace it!

[_Keith]

It is not just with palms, but trees too.   So many alarmist out there, it'll break your foundation, your side walk, it will fall on your house, it will catch on fire, it attracks bug, or rats, or worse, termites.  You have to wonder how mankind survived if you listen to these folks.  And if you really want to scare them off say the word "maintenance."

Now, I have to confess, I don't like tall palms with skinny trunks and small canopies.  Not sure why, I just don't.  Big heavy trunks, yeah.

Keith

[sonoranfans]

(osideterry @ Jan. 03 2008,15:41)

QUOTE

The neighbor thread has me thinking of another weird bias I've noticed.

I work 1-2 times a month with a local palm nursery (hey Johnny, how's it goin') and I've noticed a lot of folks just don't care for palms that get more than 15 ft tall. You'll be showing them palms, and they ask how tall it gets, and when you say 25-30ft, they make a face like someone nearby has flatulence. It doesn't seem to be related to powerlines or overhead obstacles.

Often, these same people's biggest complaint is that they can't grow a lot of tropical plants because they don't have any shade in their yards.

Anyone else notice this bias?

I suspect the customers want a nice yard but dont want to do any work or pay for landscaping.  Someday, after all the good cheap mexican labor is gone(maybe sooner than you think), those 40+' tall robustas will cost alot to trim.  I've seen alot of 'em here more than 60' tall, you need a firetruck(or a crazy mexican lumberjack) to trim 'em.  I dont see the point of really tall trees in a tiny yard, but I do like them in open spaces for their stature.  Frankly the best shade trees here arent palms, it takes 3-5 palms to throw the shade of 1 good shade tree.  But when I group 3 queens together, they sure look nicer, more graceful than most any shade tree.

[MattyB]

Yeah Terry I've noticed this.  I think it's usually a customer who has a relatively small yard (like most of us in SoCal) and just wants some nice looking, tropical themed plants.  They're not palm crazy like us.  But like Dave said, even though the Chambeyronia may get to be 40 feet overall it's not gonna do that here in SoCal within their lifetime.   ??? I think.  At least there's no shortage of different palms for them to grow so there's always another option.  Plus it's always hard to answer the question of "How tall will it get?" and "In what amount of time?" because there's so many different variables involved.  The greatest of which are usually water and fertilizer applied.  I bet you could get a palm twice as tall over a 20 year period with regular water and fertilizer versus the same species without such care.  So that's a 25 foot teddybear palm or a 12 foot teddybear palm.  What do you tell the customer?  Good question.  If it's a kick a$$ palm like Ravenea glauca or Hedescepy or Rhopalostylis I just say, "Just get it!  Trust me, there's no way you're not gonna fall in love with this palm!"  Which is hard for some people to believe when there's a little doinker with 4 leaves that looks like every other thing they've seen that day sitting in front of them.

[Breadfruit Bill]

I may be the dummie here about washie in the Cali crowd...  but why do we feel the need to trim the dead fronds off the washies?  I like skirts.

[Tyrone]

Yes, It's the same over here. Some complain that palms grow too slowly. Others complain that they grow too fast and all you see is a trunk. Most people don't have shade, and small palms are generally understory and need the canopy to look good or grow at all. So what they really need is a totally sun tolerant, drought tolerant, understory palm that gets to ten ft in 2 months and stops. That aint gonna happen.

Matt, you are right, it all depends on how they water and fertilise it. So if they don't do either, the plant will probably die in a few months and they won't be worried about it getting too big then. Most palms around here are under watered and malnourished.

William, I'm with you. I don't understand why you would trim a 40ft washie either. It's too hard, so why bother anyway. The skirt is miles up the tree so leave it alone.

Myself, I love tall palms. I'm in the flight path to Perth airport and the planes at times land right across my property about 200 or so feet up. I can see the rivets and details in the undercarriage. My garden is reaching for the sky, and I've planted a Caryota gigas in there. One day my garden maybe on a flight simulator program somewhere.

regards

Tyrone

[Kim]

I think it's about proportion.  A 50ft. washie in a small garden is out of proportion.  Look out your window, all you see is a 'telephone pole' because the crown is way up out of view.  A long, wide boulevard lined with tall washies or queens is classic Calilfornia scene, as is a beachfront boardwalk, but the proportions of palm height to open land work better.  

When I first started planting palms, I didn't want anything tall either, because I wouldn't get much shade or privacy screening, plus I'm in the "no telelphone poles" camp.  So most of my palms either stay small or grow slowly.  But I love seeing large stands of giant palms in habitat!

[deezpalms]

(PiousPalms @ Jan. 03 2008,13:47)

QUOTE

I may be the dummie here about washie in the Cali crowd...  but why do we feel the need to trim the dead fronds off the washies?  I like skirts.

Mostly it's a personal preference but it is a fire hazard. (Especially when you have arsonist kids running around town!)

There have been several Washingtonia's around San Diego that weren't trimmed and have been set afire. The trees have survived but they don't look so nice when the trunks are all burnt up  

[Breadfruit Bill]

Come to think of it I have heard of arson commited against the washies... maybe even seen a shot or two of it on the news...  And after this years events I can see the concern for a fire hazard...  

Even still, I think I'd leave mine be...  I'm sure I'm the minority...  this calls for a poll!

[Patrick]

Maybe I'm being a bit of an elitist here (or not) but I figure that's exactly why you do the research to figure out WHAT fits in the parameters you have. Of course (!) you wouldn't plant some Sabals in a place that's only a few feet wide. It's just a matter of knowing what's out there for planting- but then I guess I'm not every homeowner. At the base of things most people are pretty lazy and don't give a second thought as to what they have or will get as long as it "fits".

Most customers don't understand the tiered effect in a yard. If they just had the vision to see that once those "tall" palms get tall, you just simply plant something under it to acommadate your middle tier requirements. The planting fun never stops!!!  But  that's more of a landscape design concept. I guess a lot of people figure that you can plant a yard once, walk away & that's it

I guess I'll have to recommend Chamaedorea radicalis, and if they don't like that then I'll be forced to call the waaaaaaaambulance! :laugh:

[Mike Evans]

osideterry, your comment is soooo true.  How many times have I heard "I want a palm that is fast growing, but stays small".  Most of these types of palms are shade lovers & these people do not have any type of canopy to grow them.  So, just sell them the larger palms & tell them "you will be dead, before it gets too large".

[bgl]

Mike,

That would seem to be the "good news - bad news" approach!

Bo-Göran

And actually I havn't heard this particular concern, but one VERY common comment from visitors here when I mention that Caryotas (and some other palms, like Metroxylon) will die after flowering is "how sad, why would I want to buy a palm that will die!". And my response (because the majority of these people do have pets) is "well, that doesn't seem to deter people from getting a dog or a cat. I don't understand the difference?" (Which I truly don't).

[osideterry]

I guess I can't relate because I love the bigger palms, and have room to plant them. I also enjoy trimming palms, even if it means climbing a ladder.

It's true, the shorter palms tend to want shade or are fan palms. The same palm newbies also hate fan palms.

At Tropical Vibe I've steered people to Chamaedorea plumosa and Ravenea glauca, the latter as an alternative to Phoenix roebelini. The Chambeyronia is an easy sell if it's throwing a red leaf.

[Tad]

(sonoranfans @ Jan. 03 2008,16:10)

QUOTE

Anyone else notice this bias?

 Someday, after all the good cheap mexican labor is gone(maybe sooner than you think),   you need a firetruck(or a crazy mexican lumberjack) to trim 'em.

 thats all I am going to say!          

[Dave-Vero]

Florida has lots of people who fear trees, thinking they'll crush the house during the next hurricane.  Actually, a live oak canopy provides significant protection.

I'm in a climate where life span for many palms depends on the next severe freeze and possibly the next hurricane.  So it pays to have a number of securely hardy palms, other palms known to do well in wind, to plant small, cheap specimens, and plan your yard in the expectation that it will change as plants grow or die.  Georgia Tasker of the Miami Herald expressed this approach very clearly.

[Walter John]

Same here. I actually have an old work mate who was asking me about planting something nice near his house that would not get too tall. I suggested one of the loveliest palms I know, growable, not tall, the Dypsis baronii, even that was too tall for him. It's one of the toughest things about this passion, breaking someone else in.

[sonoranfans]

(osideterry @ Jan. 03 2008,20:23)

QUOTE

I guess I can't relate because I love the bigger palms, and have room to plant them. I also enjoy trimming palms, even if it means climbing a ladder.

It's true, the shorter palms tend to want shade or are fan palms. The same palm newbies also hate fan palms.

At Tropical Vibe I've steered people to Chamaedorea plumosa and Ravenea glauca, the latter as an alternative to Phoenix roebelini. The Chambeyronia is an easy sell if it's throwing a red leaf.

I'm sure I can set you up with some "60' above the ground trimming enjoyment" Terry.  Landscaping companies have a lot of business trimming those 40-60 foot robustas in public places.  I'll bet the city will let you do it for free!  Im sure the ladder will be pretty stable if there is not too much wind.

I'll trim my queens, but thats as far as I will go.  No robustas for me.  I would prefer to trim my Bizzies, Braheas and sabals from the ground with a polesaw.

[madagascarbob]

Our very tall Archontophoenix maxima just dropped a leaf on my wifes friends new car and dented it ,

[Walter John]

(madagascarbob @ Jan. 05 2008,09:47)

QUOTE

Our very tall Archontophoenix maxima just dropped a leaf on my wifes friends new car and dented it ,

That's what palm trees do.......DUH !!

Anyway.................then what happened ?

[madagascarbob]

(Wal @ Jan. 04 2008,20:23)

QUOTE

(madagascarbob @ Jan. 05 2008,09:47)

QUOTE

Our very tall Archontophoenix maxima just dropped a leaf on my wifes friends new car and dented it ,

That's what palm trees do.......DUH !!

Anyway.................then what happened ?

I'm waiting for the bill !

[Kris]

Dear Terry  

Nice topic and if people want shade from palms then they must grow the talipot palms...  the entire family can stand below it and get shade...from sunlight & also from sudden rains..

But i do not understand why people grow coconuts & royal palms in cramped up real estates where their dried fronds keep falling and breaking things that belong to thy neighbour..

i feel these palms should be banned from growing inside cities for safety reasons..

love,

Kris  

[osideterry]

Kris - I'm afraid my Bismarckia and Sabals are as close to Talipot shade as I can get. If I could grow one, I would put it right in the middle of my yard.

madagascarbob - My kings are only 13-15 ft to top leaf, so I haven't had an entire leaf and crownshaft fall off on their own yet. I had no idea they would weigh enough to dent a car. A new car.

[Walter John]

i feel these palms should be banned from growing inside cities for safety reasons.

Disagree Kris. If you're stupid enough to park under a palm tree, then accept the natural occurence.

As for safety reasons in cities, Mmmm......... I'll stop here.

[ariscott]

I have to add something here... a relative of my other half (not my relative - ok, have to make the distiction clear here... ) just bought a place, which is full of mature palms. They are carpies (of course), golden canes, hydrastele, cuban royal & macathurii. They are common, but they actually look good. And they are not gardeners, so those palms probably low maintenance enough...

So, what are they planning to do?? Rip them all out and replace them with.... wait for it... wait for it, crushed granite!! They reckoned they bring termites and also they will fall over on the roof during cyclones. Man, I was too shocked to say anything. Scott (my other half) is trying to tell him that termites is there anyway regardless, and at least they will be munching on the palms rather than his house!!! But, he thinks he knows it all, so we gave up.

Another thing too, their neighbour has a mature eucalyptus, and he was going to have a word to him to cut it down, otherwise he would poison it!!! What could you do with a relative like that???? And to think that we are MAD gardeners!!

Regards, Ari

[Walter John]

(ariscott @ Jan. 06 2008,09:10)

QUOTE

I have to add something here... a relative of my other half (not my relative - ok, have to make the distiction clear here... ) just bought a place, which is full of mature palms. They are carpies (of course), golden canes, hydrastele, cuban royal & macathurii. They are common, but they actually look good. And they are not gardeners, so those palms probably low maintenance enough...

So, what are they planning to do?? Rip them all out and replace them with.... wait for it... wait for it, crushed granite!! They reckoned they bring termites and also they will fall over on the roof during cyclones. Man, I was too shocked to say anything. Scott (my other half) is trying to tell him that termites is there anyway regardless, and at least they will be munching on the palms rather than his house!!! But, he thinks he knows it all, so we gave up.

Another thing too, their neighbour has a mature eucalyptus, and he was going to have a word to him to cut it down, otherwise he would poison it!!! What could you do with a relative like that???? And to think that we are MAD gardeners!!

Regards, Ari

:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  Ari I love you and here's you trying to get your palms established, crushed granite, now there's a natural look