To hybridize or not

[Tracy]

My Ravenea glauca has an inflorescence about to open female flowers.   Meanwhile,  I have not found a female companion for my Ravenea julietiae male.  Should I try using the julietiae pollen on the glauca?  What say you?

[happypalms]

Hybrid palms is a good ethical debate.

Myself personally iam against the hybridisation of palms or any other plant. 
It’s a debate that has the for and against it, Mother Nature does create hybrids but that’s for her to do and who are we to muck with Mother Nature. 
We know what happens when we do. 
With land clearing at an alarming rate and forest destruction of native palm habitats we are losing a battle we can all see what’s happening. 
We all know if it’s lost in habitat we can rely on botanical gardens and gardens around the globe to save a species of palm from extinction. 
Humankind has a lot to answer for in the destruction of the planet 300 to 500 years what will we leave. 
This is just my personal view on the subject and I will say iam against hybrids. 
Let others disagree, everyone has a right to be heard and have a say in this world 🌎 

[tim_brissy_13]

I’ve had the same decision to make. 
 

In general my thinking has been that if I only have a male of one species and a female of another, then why not try. Essentially it will be hybrids palms produced or nothing. There’s not really any cost to doing it if it doesn’t replace pure species. 
 

For example, I have a lonely Chamaedorea woodsoniana male. I have a Chamaedorea costaricana, oblongata and hooperiana females but no males of those species. I’ve been hand pollinating just to learn what works with what. I have 3 male Chamaedorea klotzschiana and a female so I don’t include these in any experiments and instead focus on isolating to produce pure seed.
 

Perhaps if any of the species in consideration were critically endangered then maybe there’s a deeper debate, especially if the endangered palm is female and it’s worth trying to source male pollen somehow even internationally to continue the pure genetics. But in this case R glauca Isalo are spread around the globe fairly well and in no immediate danger so I don’t see what harm its doing by trying. Ravenea have been known to hybridise so you might end up with something interesting that inspires new collectors who ultimately contribute to palm conservation. I’m thinking of Tribears, Mules etc being introductory palms for people who then go on to become serious collectors and conservationists. 
 

That’s just my 2 cents on the topic but I’m happy to hear everyone else thought as it is a controversial topic for which I’ve heard arguments on both sides.  

[tim_brissy_13]

Added note to the above - the other negative side of hybridisation is perhaps the case of Chrysalidocarpus. We have a genus with many palms endangered in habitat or even extinct in the wild unable to be found again. Then we have many mystery species and/or hybrids in cultivation. It kind of blurs the lines with some of the hybrids out there and makes everything that bit more confusing. On the flip side, most of the hybrids in that genus are pretty interesting and some, if not most, end up sterile so often the genetic line ends with them (unless cross pollinated with another…and the confusion continues 🤣). 

[Phoenikakias]

@TracyI am waiting for my Livistona glauca to expand three flower stalks for the first time. Interestingly and intriguingly two other specimens in Valencia Spain, which bloom too are both female like yours. So I know three out of three cases of female specimens, which makes me wonder, whether climate influences sex during adulthood of the individuals. Out of curiosity do spadices of Ravenea have a sex dimorphism like those of Phoenix roebelenii? (i.e. female longer and slender, male shorter and wider)

[Tracy]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

@TracyI am waiting for my Livistona glauca to expand three flower stalks for the first time. Interestingly and intriguingly two other specimens in Valencia Spain, which bloom too are both female like yours. So I know three out of three cases of female specimens, which makes me wonder, whether climate influences sex during adulthood of the individuals. Out of curiosity do spadices of Ravenea have a sex dimorphism like those of Phoenix roebelenii? (i.e. female longer and slender, male shorter and wider)

I can't speak to the difference between male and female inflorescence of Ravenea julietiae because I only have a male and have never seen females.   With regards to Ravenea glauca,  I have both sexes.  The female Ravenea glauca inflorescence opens up wider than the more narrow males.

[rizla023]

Life is short. Go for it. 

[TomJ]

Why not do it.

Sounds like a fun experiment and if any seeds are produced please put me in line.

 

[Harry’s Palms]

If that is the only way to get seed from the lonely female , and you are up for it , go for it. I don’t do any of that here in my garden , but it isn’t because of ethics ….I’m lazy!😂. If I get seeds , it is all Mother Nature , let her do the work. Harry

[Tracy]

12 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

If that is the only way to get seed from the lonely female , and you are up for it , go for it. I don’t do any of that here in my garden , but it isn’t because of ethics ….I’m lazy!😂. If I get seeds , it is all Mother Nature , let her do the work. Harry

Just to clarify, the female is the rather commonly grown Ravenea glauca.   The uncommon plants is the male, Ravenea julietiae.   I have seedlings of Ravenea glauca from past years because I have both male and female of that species. 

 

Today I collected a little pollen from the Ravenea julietiae and tried dusting some flowers on the Ravenea glauca female.   It won't develop full fruits with seeds unless the flowers are successfully pollinated in my experience.   So I will collect more pollen and try dusting again over the next few days.  We will see if the glauca develops fruit.

[Phoenikakias]

4 hours ago, Tracy said:

Just to clarify, the female is the rather commonly grown Ravenea glauca.   The uncommon plants is the male, Ravenea julietiae.   I have seedlings of Ravenea glauca from past years because I have both male and female of that species. 

 

Today I collected a little pollen from the Ravenea julietiae and tried dusting some flowers on the Ravenea glauca female.   It won't develop full fruits with seeds unless the flowers are successfully pollinated in my experience.   So I will collect more pollen and try dusting again over the next few days.  We will see if the glauca develops fruit.

This is the largest spadix in my glauca. Is there any chance, that one can predict sex by the its shape?

[Tracy]

9 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

This is the largest spadix in my glauca. Is there any chance, that one can predict sex by the its shape?

I don't know as I haven't examined them closely at that stage to compare.   You will soon discover though when it opens.

[Josue Diaz]

That's awesome you can play matchmaker. Should make some fun plants. Can you share a full pic of that julietiae?

14 hours ago, Tracy said:

Just to clarify, the female is the rather commonly grown Ravenea glauca.   The uncommon plants is the male, Ravenea julietiae.   I have seedlings of Ravenea glauca from past years because I have both male and female of that species. 

 

Today I collected a little pollen from the Ravenea julietiae and tried dusting some flowers on the Ravenea glauca female.   It won't develop full fruits with seeds unless the flowers are successfully pollinated in my experience.   So I will collect more pollen and try dusting again over the next few days.  We will see if the glauca develops fruit.

 

[Tracy]

13 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

This is the largest spadix in my glauca. Is there any chance, that one can predict sex by the its shape?

Here you go, female plant holding multiple spadix at different maturities in photo with white fence background.   Male plant holding multiple spdix at different stages of maturity and final photo is a pair of male inflorescence on the same palm.

[Tracy]

3 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

That's awesome you can play matchmaker. Should make some fun plants. Can you share a full pic of that julietiae?

 

Josue first up is my younger Ravenea julietiae followed by 3 shots of the one in bloom right now.   I have the potted Macrozamia on one side and  Dioon mejiae on the other making it challenging to get the entire palm in one photo. 

[Josue Diaz]

What a beautiful palm! I'd be interested in some seeds if you get any, and decide to sell off any in the future. I'm not sure how well julietiae would do in the Central Valley, but glauca will take our heat and cold with no problems. Sometimes the more tropical species absolutely hate the prolonged cool, wet period between Dec and January, even if we have no frost. A hybrid of the two might prove to be a great grower up here with our long, hot summers.