Mexican Fan Palm in zone 7b/8a

[coconut2024]

Hey! I got a mexican fan palm just today, it's around 180cm tall, eith pot around 2m. I'm planning to plant it in ground on south wall in well draining cacti soil mixed with our native soil. 

[Fusca]

Looks like your palm has a nice amount of filifera in it.  😊  There was a member in Montreal who kept one alive for a few years in the ground but of course he had to provide heated protection for it.  What do you expect to do during the winter months?

[coconut2024]

48 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Looks like your palm has a nice amount of filifera in it.  😊  There was a member in Montreal who kept one alive for a few years in the ground but of course he had to provide heated protection for it.  What do you expect to do during the winter months?

Hello there! We are very very different from Montreal ofc, protection here for palms that grow here (sabals, windmills and pindos) is very minimal and on many winters not needed, we often have zone 8a/8b winters, but zone 9a winter happens once every few years, but i plan to tie the leaves, added some heat Christmas lights, burlap and mulch. I also plan to water the palm with a systematic fungicide, so basically fungi-resistant from inside out. We also have very hot, scorching summers which fuel these kind of plants.

[coconut2024]

Wait, so I accidentally bought a hybrid, same as Filibusta. That's a big win for me.

[tarnado]

17 minutes ago, coconut2024 said:

accidentally bought a hybrid

Taxonomists did a genetic study of Washingtonia and found that the differences between what people call 'robusta' and 'filifera' and even 'filibusta' did not really map to species differences... basically, what folks call these different forms are part of the natural variation within the species. 

Good luck with your palm, I hope it thrives!

[coconut2024]

2 minutes ago, tarnado said:

Taxonomists did a genetic study of Washingtonia and found that the differences between what people call 'robusta' and 'filifera' and even 'filibusta' did not really map to species differences... basically, what folks call these different forms are part of the natural variation within the species. 

Good luck with your palm, I hope it thrives!

Thanks for the wishes! I also wish you good luck with your palms!

[ChrisA]

I think it will grow well for you for many years, especially with some winter protection for the cold weather while young.  Make sure to give it plenty of room as a full head of fronds can be 4-5 meters across. Your climate sounds somewhat similar to Albuquerque, New Mexico. They are right on the cusp of 7B/8A and have been having great success especially with Filifera and filibusta. It’s lucky that you have the hybrid, or now I guess intermediate kline, more tolerant of both humidity and cold.  Check out some of the Albuquerque posts if you haven’t already. Sounds like you’re a bit warmer even. Albuquerque’s record low is -17F which would be a zone 5A winter. Happy growing! Look forward to seeing updates!

[coconut2024]

1 hour ago, ChrisA said:

I think it will grow well for you for many years, especially with some winter protection for the cold weather while young.  Make sure to give it plenty of room as a full head of fronds can be 4-5 meters across. Your climate sounds somewhat similar to Albuquerque, New Mexico. They are right on the cusp of 7B/8A and have been having great success especially with Filifera and filibusta. It’s lucky that you have the hybrid, or now I guess intermediate kline, more tolerant of both humidity and cold.  Check out some of the Albuquerque posts if you haven’t already. Sounds like you’re a bit warmer even. Albuquerque’s record low is -17F which would be a zone 5A winter. Happy growing! Look forward to seeing updates!

Thanks! Our record low ever was around -30C, atleast half a century ago. We are pretty much milder than Alberquerque but I do see similarities.

[coconut2024]

Can't believe stores here already sell subtropical species,our area is one of the best in inland Slovenia to grow palms, oleanders, passion fruit vines....just less than 50km more north, they are even more open, so basically they win the most open part of the country but they are open to the Siberian air masses and long fog, we are sheltered by hills, alps so stores actually sell these kind of plants for outdoor planting, not just for pots.

[Las Palmas Norte]

The single most beneficial practice would be to keep with winter weather off your Washingtonia, what ever that eventually is.  It's not singularly a solution, but coupled with your previously mentioned methods will help facilitate success. Good luck with that one!

[Las Palmas Norte]

21 hours ago, tarnado said:

... basically, what folks call these different forms are part of the natural variation within the species. ...

Are there plans to eliminate the species names (robusta & filifera) and utilize a single species name (Washingtonia una)? If so, I suspect eventually that the native W. filifera reserves in CA and AZ be integrated and perhaps lose their significance?

[jwitt]

8 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Are there plans to eliminate the species names (robusta & filifera) and utilize a single species name (Washingtonia una)? If so, I suspect eventually that the native W. filifera reserves in CA and AZ be integrated and perhaps lose their significance?

Except..............

Robusta are not known to "sprout" in 9.2 ph soil like filifera are documented. 

An often overlooked or "ignored"  fact/trait of filifera. 

Pics of native robusta habitat in Mexico look quite different.  My hunch

Filifera grove

 

 

[ZPalms]

I don't like the merger because personally filifera and robusta are distinct. You can't get the specific traits of a pure filifera within a robusta grove at least I don't think you can and I feel like their tolerances to different environmental factors are also different.

what do I know though 😂

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, ZPalms said:

I don't like the merger because personally filifera and robusta are distinct. You can't get the specific traits of a pure filifera within a robusta grove at least I don't think you can and I feel like their tolerances to different environmental factors are also different.

what do I know though 😂

Think of it like Chamaerops.  One species but different varieties.  C. humilis var. humilis (green Med. Fan) is quite different than C. humilis var. argentea (blue Med. Fan - used to be cerifera).  It's just different than what you're used to.  W. filifera var. filifera and W. filifera var. robusta.  The "filifera" refers to the cottony fibers that are more pronounced in filifera but also present in robusta.

[Las Palmas Norte]

I think of Washingtonia as two distinct species that hybridized freely, not variants or subspecies. Both robusta and filifera in their pure forms, have unique characteristics. The mixing of species names, eg: filibusta etc., are monikers that evolved from the this mix, and occupy the vast majority of current availability. 

 

[tarnado]

23 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Are there plans to eliminate the species names (robusta & filifera)

The 'filifera' name is "senior," so everything collapses into "Washingtonia filifera" - with var. for various things.

[tarnado]

3 hours ago, ZPalms said:

ct. You can't get the specific traits of a pure filifera within a robusta grove at least I don't think you can

That's the thing - the authors of the paper that collapsed the two species into one found that "morphological differences" (like between var. filifera and var. robusta and var. filibusta, etc) didn't map onto any definable genetic differences in their study. They used a lot of the standard tools taxonomists have to test for genetic distances and time 'distances' between species. I think they even mentioned that seedlings from a stand of trees can show a range of these morphological differences.

And that does bring up a thing that I see *a lot* on this forum, which is people talking about their 'pure filifera' seedlings coming up looking like a robusta or a hybrid. If you have some experience growing out 1000 seeds of a pure stand, or something, or ??? and find something else, I think a lot of people would like to know the results of that!

[jwitt]

6 hours ago, tarnado said:

That's the thing - the authors of the paper that collapsed the two species into one found that "morphological differences" (like between var. filifera and var. robusta and var. filibusta, etc) didn't map onto any definable genetic differences in their study. They used a lot of the standard tools taxonomists have to test for genetic distances and time 'distances' between species. I think they even mentioned that seedlings from a stand of trees can show a range of these morphological differences.

And that does bring up a thing that I see *a lot* on this forum, which is people talking about their 'pure filifera' seedlings coming up looking like a robusta or a hybrid. If you have some experience growing out 1000 seeds of a pure stand, or something, or ??? and find something else, I think a lot of people would like to know the results of that!

I am not in the league of 1000's of seedlings, but up there.  Close.

What I can say is many traits of filifera/robusta can be turned off/on with soil acidity/alkalinity. 

It is readily apparent in Maui where filifera have naturalized in alkaline areas and morphed into something not filifera with known soil differences

I have proven the same thing in my backyard. 

Suffice to say I can turn off/on red petiole streaking on trunking and seedling filifera with the use of highly acidic fish emulsion.  On and off. 

When you realize filifera have been in cultivation for only half of of it's lifespan(250 years), we may not know really much about it's true characteristics.

I believe people confuse wet/dry and overlook soil ph.

Never once "heard" anyone try to grow one with the use of baking soda...........never! But they sure try to grow this swamp and water pumper in "dry"  desert conditions. But they are not found in the open desert. If filifera grew in the open desert,  they would be all over like prickly pear, creosote, mesquite.  

They grow in highly alkaline swamps found in the desert. 

I've reported my findings on this forum before with little interest

Here is a 5 month old seedling grown from seed from a filifera palm preserve.  In acidic soil. Nuttin but red.....

 

Maybe even some "stretching" at the base

[jwitt]

And I would like to add another little tidbit. The use of fertilizer by many. That fertilizer is most often itself buffered. 

Leaning away from alkalinity. 

If you can grow azalea, gardenia, and such in your soil, I do not believe filifera will be happy. 

[jwitt]

I also like the growing of filifera seedlings in a community pot or 4"pot with "cactus" soil.  I am joking......

Maybe  this 5.5 month old pure filifera seedling grown in "neutral soil"  deep liner,  would be "different " in a 4" pot.  

 

 

[tarnado]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

neutral soil

Those are some astounding roots. What was the rooting media, when you say 'neutral soil so you mean a mineral soil with neutral pH or?

Also - as someone with a background in soil science, I really appreciate your interest in how soil interacts with Washingtonia growth. I'm working an an experiment with Trachycarpus (often from limestone-based soil areas) and raising pH and adding Calcium to see what differences might occur.

[jwitt]

19 hours ago, tarnado said:

Those are some astounding roots. What was the rooting media, when you say 'neutral soil so you mean a mineral soil with neutral pH or?

Also - as someone with a background in soil science, I really appreciate your interest in how soil interacts with Washingtonia growth. I'm working an an experiment with Trachycarpus (often from limestone-based soil areas) and raising pH and adding Calcium to see what differences might occur.

The growing medium was/is "mineral soil with neutral pH" and a little organic(a bit of leaf mold).  Please realize those roots are "constrained".  I actually prefer to direct seed my filifera right in the ground. 

As to my full sun trachy, my -10f unprotected  survivor seems to like a touch of coffee grounds percolating into my sandy alkaline soil.  I believe they prefer a neutral to slightly acidic soil, at least in my climate/soil. Someone in acidic conditions, may actually find it beneficial to raise the ph more towards neutral. 

I do have an ongoing discussion/report out concerning my filifera.  A couple years old, real time discussion, concerning filifera. In it are my thoughts, beliefs, and findings related to this species, and how I grow this species in a 7b climate, with nothing other than passive protection. 

 

[coconut2024]

Hello there! I planted the palm in ground as today, march 8th. Since mid february, we only had sun, highs of 15-20C and no frost, this should be going on for another two weeks or maybe its gonna only get warmer, the south wall where i planted it gets above 25C everyday and is pretty warmer than much of the garden during the night.