How come coconuts in Southern California don’t grow as well as south Florida?

[Maddox Gardening-youtube]

I’ve always wondered this since they both have sandy soil and are both 10a or 10b. I know there are some successful coconuts in Southern California, but not to the extent as Florida. Any explanations? 

[tim_brissy_13]

Climate zone is a human made concept that really only looks at average yearly minimum temperature. I’m apparently a 10a but we don’t really use them in Australia. Cocos won’t grow until about 1000km north of me in the subtropics where average temperatures can sustain their growth. It’s the same problem for So Cal. Outside of a few known examples, the average temperatures in winter are the limiting factor regardless of how often it gets down near freezing.

[Jim in Los Altos]

San Francisco has 10b zones but is a mild to chilly climate. The zone designation only applies to average minimum winter temperature. It has nothing to do with the amount of daily heat. No freezing temperatures but nowhere near the necessary heat needed to support the growth of a coconut palm. Southern CA has a few areas (Santa Ana, La Quinta, Coronata for example) where coconuts will grow but likely never fruit. 

[Stevetoad]

The guys above explained it very well.  If or when you go to both places you can feel the difference in the air. A winter day of 80f in south Florida isn't the same as 80f in San Diego. Here in San Diego we are way drier and our night drastically swing. When we do get cold in winter (upper 50s and lower 60s during g the day and 30s to 40s at night) it's common for it to stick around for weeks if not well over a month. In Florida when they dip into those temps it might only be for a day or two and there quickly warms back up. My biggest heart breaker is Areca vestiaria, they never die from one cold event but rather the long cool winter slowly kills them right before it starts to warm back up.  

[Harry’s Palms]

I also think the intensity of the sun. Some of it due to latitudes or humidity or both. When I am in Hawaii or tropical areas I can feel the difference. So can the palms. Harry

[SouthernCATropicals]

California’s weather is really different from Florida’s. The temperatures have a very tiny range of fluctuation. The coldest night of the year for me would typically only be a couple degrees lower than what would normally be a typical winter night. If you look at the averages for the city of San Diego, for example I would say that’s pretty accurate. When it’s sunny it’ll be low 70s during the day and low 50’s at night when it’s stormy it’ll be 60 day and night.  During the winter the nights are long and the sun‘s angle is slanted so the daytime highs aren’t like they would be closer to the equator because they only last for a few hours at that peak. 
 

So like everyone else is saying there isn’t a massive amount of winter heat but just stays within a very limited range between 50 and 70 leaning more to the 50 side when it storms. 
 

Coconuts seem to need to actively grow or else their immune systems falls to zero and then they seem fall to fungal infections. I think that these coconuts are just being dramatic and can be trained to enjoy the cooler temperatures haha 

[Stevetoad]

Not to say that we (Californians) don’t try. 
 

[Josue Diaz]

Some anecdotal evidence from my part of the state in Fresno (Central, inland California). We are a 9b/10a location with a few nights of frost each year. We've had 10a winters the last 8 or so years. As SouthernCA Tropicals mentioned, we rarely deviate from the average. Winter temps here are usually 60F for a high, 35-40F for a low here, and that's daily.  We don't get 70s. certainly don't get 80s. Just cool and wet for long periods. Compare that to a zone 9b in Florida (Texas even?) or a 10a in either of those areas? You MAY get a few nights of 30F, even high 20s, but temps go right back to 70s and 80s with sun. Here are the lowest temps in Fresno for the last 10 years. 

 

And this is the comparable data for a 9b city in Florida (I'm not all that familiar with Florida cities so maybe someone can suggest a better comparison). 

Both cities have temps that on the books would be able to support cocos nucifera in theory - even those high 20s! I'm guessing Tampa has a lot more heat in winter with rogue "polar vortex'-type events that bring freezes and frost. Fresno has more stable, predictable highs and lows, and those lows are sustained for a period of 2-3 months. I mean, just look at what a month of 40F and cold fog has done to Roystonea in this post. 40F is not a threat to Roystonea by any means - but a month of it? With cold fog? and no heat? it'll do in the more tropical stuff. Many tropicals can adapt to that, but some things just can't take those conditions and they begin to die off. Coconuts absolutely hate those conditions. 

[Silas_Sancona]

Much of the above mentioned “ differences “ are pretty on the ball.  “ Heat / lack of it in CA, in many areas, this time of year esp. “  ….yada yada yada

Other big + player in fl is proxim. to constantly mild / warm water,  on both sides,  esp once down in Miami.   … and Florida's size

… much smaller area compared to CA .. no mountains / mountain valleys that can trap cold air either. 
 

while the Pacific off the warmest portion of CA is just a touch chilly ( …adding to the lack of warmth, particularly in winter,  at times  angle ) They are warming…

While they may never get quite as warm as FL anytime soon,  they could  reach “ just warm enough “ status in the not too distant future.  

Any ( and all ) deniers be damned..  

 

Back to mountains,  …Same lack of any mountains is one big factor that exposes FL to major arctic outbreaks  ..so  … Pick your poison / minus factors carefully,  in either area. 
 

All that said,  of all the varieties of Coconuts out there that stand the best chance of survival anywhere in CA??  .. it will be those from Hawaii,( shown to be a good candidate already )  and those from Mexico …particularly sourced from areas of Mex.  close to S. TX.  ..and / or areas like Baja / coastal and any near coastal areas west of the Sierra Madre Occidental ..esp. north of Mazatlan that i’d be squarely focused on if i were going down the Coco Rabbit hole out there ( ….or here )
 

Possible too that coconuts sourced from higher elevation spots in Mex.  ( like the fruiting specimens i’ve found around Lake Chapala )  might br CA - trial worthy material too. 
 

if you live in San D, you need to have friends in Baja roll ( or toss ) some nuts over the wall.  .. if you can’t get them through yourself. 
 

Regardless, my “ bet “,  placed in another CA Coco - nutty thread,  stands.

 ..even gonna up the final ante mentioned to 20$ ..and i’ll place it in my will …if that is as long as it takes… to see / hear of.. a legit, with - viable - fruit (s) on it,  Cali - grown Coconut.

How confident are any nay sayers.

[sonoranfans]

I think it may have to do with the length of the cool season.  They dont do so well here in mid coastal florida either until a few months after winter.  They seem to come out yellowish and get a nice green mid summer.  Rain in summer probably also helps in florida as opposed to rain in the cool season.  They look great in miami but not so great 40 miles south of tampa.  We are 4-5 degrees cooler in lows than miami in winter. 

[DoomsDave]

This was a freebie coconut someone grew in his old fogey apartment for 20 years before he gave it me and moved to Colorado back in 2020.

 

jjjhttps://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/62288-free-coconut-7-feet-tall/

[rockinrickyfox]

because even though California is mild in winter the temperature doesn't fluctuate as high like texas, florida, arizona. temperatures in winter are mainly between 10-20 degrees in difference. like 70 at day and 50 at night. while florida might get 30 degrees some nights but then the day is 90 or 80. in texas they can get 80 degrees and then the arctic front comes in and its suddenly 5 degrees. california weather is very stable. coconuts tend to like the higher range of temperature where they might tolerate going near freezing if they can warm up at day but in california the day time high might not be high enough for active growth even if it never gets near freezing at night and then they also hate cold wet roots. which is another killer. so its a combination of slowly starving from not being able to grow and cold wet weather. 

[rockinrickyfox]

thats not to say in some areas it isnt possible. in mine it is. we do get a few 80s days and nights above 50 to keep coconuts alive. southern ca Tropicals has proven that with his huge tree and a few others he has. and he's slightly colder and wetter than my area on average. 

[sonoranfans]

I lived in laguna beach for 4 years away from my house near ellenton/bradenton.  It was mild in laguna i winter probably never below 36F or so but not nearly as sunny as florida in winter when florida tends to be dry.  I preferred laguna beach weather 9 months a year but when I went back to florida  for a few weeks in winter the sun was/is far warmer and there were very few cloudy days.  Daytime high temps were a little(4-5 degrees) warmer in florida in the daytime maybe to 80-82F at most, though absolute lows did touch 3-5 degrees lower than laguna a few days a year.  But that sunshine warms everything up pretty quickly and of course cheers you up in winter.  What surprised me about coastal california was the cloudy days i winter, there were quite a lot of them compared with florida.  But summertime was what made california so amazingly livable, just about every day was great.  I prefer the california weather most of the year except for 3 months.  My palms are still throw spears in december and the grow season comes to a close in january.  Miami is even warmer than my place, that is where the coco look real nice.  9B florida not coconut country, you need to go south to a warm 10a or 10b at least.  This year we hit 39F 3x(including last night) but we have had only 3 days below 70F for a high and typically its 73-78F for a high before january rolls in.  Then by the end of the 2nd week of february the winter is over and the palms are growing again.  Im betting its the sun, when you stand in the sun here it definitely warms you in winter more than coastal SoCal.  We also have about 30 minutes longer days than laguna beach, sunrise to sunset, this time of year.  I am currently in Virgina visiting family and days are an hour shorter here.  I do miss the longer days as well as the warmer weather.

[Silas_Sancona]

40 minutes ago, rockinrickyfox said:

they also hate cold wet roots. which is another killer. so its a combination of slowly starving from not being able to grow and cold wet weather. 

This has befuddled me a bit simply due to observing coconuts ( on bird island, in Sarasota ) growing right next to water …close enough, and in a soil matrix type where the root zone is always …at least… moist,  all year.

Had seen a fee light frosts when i lived there and those same cocos never flinched during those cool and blustery - but brief- winter days.

In CA, i myself would plant them in a 4 x 4ft wide by 4ft deep “ planter “ of just lava rock and larger wash grit / 1/4th inch granite gravel to help keep the root zone drier during the wetter spells this time of year.  Clay- ey soil in many parts of the state? Definitely not coconut friendly, lol. 

temp - wise, So Cal  can see plenty of days in the 80s …and occasionally higher than that, even closer to the coast, this time of year.

Actually been pretty happy to see places like LA or Vista out do us for the high for the day in Dec or Jan. several times in recent years.
 

More recently,  After escaping the foggy 40F chill in Bakersfield on the way back here, it was 86F most of the time while rolling down the 5 / 210 thru Santa Clarita and Pasadena, toward the Redlands / Palm Springs.

was actually warmer there than while passing thru the desert between Indio and Blythe / Parker,  on the AZ side of the river.  Cooler once we got home here too. 
 

naysayers may never accept the idea of a fruiting coconut out there,  but,  
 

Some said the same thing about ever seeing something “ tender” like Jack Fruit,  or a real deal Mangosteen specimen(s) growing anywhere in SoCal. / anywhere outdoors in the state.  Both have been noted / reported on by reliable members here on palmtalk.  
 

Heck, Allspice, a reasonably hardy spice - tree that some people assume is a super tender tropical, does well out there. 
 

…Some also swore CA is too cold for Coffee, on a profitable crop level scale ..One google search shows how wrong they were.

CA grown coffee is actually turning out to be quite valuable,  even if you’ll likely never see it grown on a similar  scale as in S. America or Africa.
 

Plenty of specimens here but, many of the old timer nursery guys swear Royal Poinciana are too tender for my part of overall Phoenix / rarely risk bringing any in to sell
 

can’t wait to hand copies of hand written notes to those same people  …containing addresses..  of every RP i have found / a few observed over several years here.

I got pushback from so called “ expert “ nursery guys when ordering a Pink Trumpet Tree up in San Jose ..a tree that can tolerate temps down to around 18F, which is rare up there..

That same tree is still kicking where i planted it .. over a decade ago.
 

Point of all that?  It might take a touch more effort there vs in fl., but,  undeterred souls with that forward and upward thinking spirit can ( will ) make those CA coco- nutty dreams a reality.

 

[Davidlon]

Where I live in South Central Florida, we grow coconut palms, but farther north in some locations they do not grow well. I believe in Florida many times it’s the cool nights and days rather than extreme temperatures in the 9b to 10a locations that makes it harder for them to do well.  I’ve never lived in California, but I have looked at the temperatures at night and many 9b to 10a places do not bottom out to extreme temperatures but what I am told Coconuts do not grow well in many locations there. If you live anywhere that you get extreme frost, most likely coconuts will not live there because they do not recover well from that. 

[sonoranfans]

I would be interested to see the soil temp differences between laguna beach and florida.  FOr many plants the soil temp is more important to growth rate than the air temps and there I suspect all that sun warms up the soil in florida while cloudy days in coastal Socal prevent radiative heating to the same degree in winter.  As for soil being continually wet, I think the soil temp is a big issue with wet soil as lower temps favor fungal growth and Ive read that some palms like W. Filifera tend to get a fungal attack that leads to root rot in cold wet soil, but the do well in the cold if the soil is not continually wet.  I had that same experience with bismarckia in arizona.  I had 4 the temps dropped to 21-22F and the one that died was near the rose garden with more 2x frequent watering, the other three pulled through fine with some leaf damage and grew out substantially that summer.  When I dug up the one that died a couple weeks later its roots were mush.  Sandy soil may help when the soil gets cold as long as oxygen can get in the fungus should be less aggressive.  Might be that cocos have a soil temp limit when in continually wet soil.  Every plant has defenses against pathogens, the question is how far do those work when the conditions favor pathogen growth.

Last to the point about coffee, my former plant genetics company developed a number of genetics that were superior producers in california and we were not the only company doing that.  Plant genetics are much more advanced in commercial food products.  I guy I used to work with was a former Syngenta bioinformatics scientist(PhD), he has some tales to tell about genetics development in food products.  After that and after discussions with other geneticists, I tend to avoid GMO food products.  Modifying the coconut could make the fruit different, and possibly not in a good way.  It might just be that the ideal coconut fruit is developed naturally.  I have a fruiting coconut down the street from me but the owner says the coconuts are not nearly as good as the market ones, very little taste.  We have seen at my former company that suboptimal cultural conditions can lead to less than ideal production of the intended product.  Grow the wrong orange genetics in arizona and you will find a orange that is barely edible.  But there are genetics developed for Arizona "arizona sweets" that are fantastic oranges that were better tasting but smallish seedless varieties that were better than 90% of all florida oranges.  Genetics can be developed to overcome limitations but gene editing(GMO) can often lead to unintended consequences as genes are multifunctional.  Change a section of the gene and it may change another aspect of the plant.