Winter is when ghosts come out

[Than]

It's this time of the year again, when my garden becomes full with eery ghosts. 

[Phoenikakias]

Demons, ghosts and black fairies would visit us during sleep, if we expected a frost without any sort of protection for the beloved ones.

[Than]

I have thermometers inside and outside the ghosts and the temperature right now is... identical 🤣Oh well.

[happypalms]

They look like Casper he was a white ghost! 👻 

[Harry’s Palms]

Good job ! Fortunately I don’t have to protect anything in my garden . Harry

[Than]

4 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Good job ! Fortunately I don’t have to protect anything in my garden . Harry

Nothing marginal? Never been tempted to push the zone a bit?

[Phoenikakias]

13 hours ago, Than said:

I have thermometers inside and outside the ghosts and the temperature right now is... identical 🤣Oh well.

You have indeed  still a lot to learn, me too! I am not sure whether it is better that you come yourself to various conclusions through a trial and error procedure.  There are instances, when one considers afterwards the option of having let plants rather totally unprotected. 

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

You have indeed  still a lot to learn, me too! I am not sure whether it is better that you come yourself to various conclusions through a trial and error procedure.  There are instances, when one considers afterwards the option of having let plants rather totally unprotected. 

Hmmm... I dunno, perhaps I have done smth wrong. Supposedly the fleece maintains 2-3 C high temp.. Don't you cover anything in your garden?

[Phoenikakias]

29 minutes ago, Than said:

Hmmm... I dunno, perhaps I have done smth wrong. Supposedly the fleece maintains 2-3 C high temp.. Don't you cover anything in your garden?

I used to, but not now.  Cause whenever I expect frost, it is accompanied most probably with snow, and snow settled on the garment is perhaps even worse than directly on the leaflets! I used to wrap up especially a Chrysalidocarpus lutescens and frankly I have been observing no benefit for the plant but rather a negative effect. Generally without inner artificial heating I pretty much doubt efficacy of passive protection.  Only overhead protection from precipitation may be surely beneficial.

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

I used to, but not now.  Cause whenever I expect frost, it is accompanied most probably with snow, and snow settled on the garment is perhaps even worse than directly on the leaflets! I used to wrap up especially a Chrysalidocarpus lutescens and frankly I have been observing no benefit for the plant but rather a negative effect. Generally without inner artificial heating I pretty much doubt efficacy of passive protection.  Only overhead protection from precipitation may be surely beneficial.

I'll try again tonight with two thermometers; I'll make sure they are at the same height this time; one inside and one right outside the cover. If there's no difference... I'll cry for the money I gave to buy these expensive XXL covers from Germany!

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

I'll try again tonight with two thermometers; I'll make sure they are at the same height this time; one inside and one right outside the cover. If there's no difference... I'll cry for the money I gave to buy these expensive XXL covers from Germany!

It is not like this. A garment performs differently during a frost event. What is the weight of the garment per sq. inch or cm? Did you take care that leaves to not touch the garment?

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

It is not like this. A garment performs differently during a frost event. What is the weight of the garment per sq. inch or cm? Did you take care that leaves to not touch the garment?

All of them are 70 g/m except for one which is 30 g/m. The thermometer was inside the 30 g/m one. Yes most leaves are away from it. Some do touch it, it difficult to keep them away cos the plants are huge. Is it a big problem?

[Phoenikakias]

30 g weight I fear  is too little. Parts of plant touching the garment, when wet, is a problem. Moistened fronds in free air would dry up much faster.

[Than]

5 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

30 g weight I fear  is too little. Parts of plant touching the garment, when wet, is a problem. Moistened fronds in free air would dry up much faster.

Most ones you find in shops are 18 g/m which is a joke. The 30 g/m I'll put it on the least sensitive plant.. I'll make sure no fronds touch the fleece..

[Harry’s Palms]

18 hours ago, Than said:

Nothing marginal? Never been tempted to push the zone a bit?

Oh , I push the zone on a few but I don’t protect them . I plant them close to other palms and then they are on their own . I don’t get frost here and most have adapted to our weather . I have lost palms that are just too tropical for my area. If I lived in an area that required protection , I may have a different attitude . About 25 years ago I spent $100 on a small Roystonia Oleracae that was not supposed to make it here , my lows in winter can reach 38f for a few hours. I planted it next to a larger Syagrus R. for protection. It is still there , now catching up to the Queen . Now we know they are much more tolerant to temperate climate than was originally believed. Our winters seem milder nowadays but that can change . Harry

‘My zone push success. I’m sure it would look much better in a more tropical climate . One thing I learned here on Palm Talk is that it wasn’t getting enough water. This is only a year and a half after drenching it and applying organic fertilizer . You can see the fronds are getting progressively larger and the crown is fattening up. A couple more years and it will be even nicer. Harry

[Phoenikakias]

9 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Oh , I push the zone on a few but I don’t protect them . I plant them close to other palms and then they are on their own . I don’t get frost here and most have adapted to our weather . I have lost palms that are just too tropical for my area. If I lived in an area that required protection , I may have a different attitude . About 25 years ago I spent $100 on a small Roystonia Oleracae that was not supposed to make it here , my lows in winter can reach 38f for a few hours. I planted it next to a larger Syagrus R. for protection. It is still there , now catching up to the Queen . Now we know they are much more tolerant to temperate climate than was originally believed. Our winters seem milder nowadays but that can change . Harry

‘My zone push success. I’m sure it would look much better in a more tropical climate . One thing I learned here on Palm Talk is that it wasn’t getting enough water. This is only a year and a half after drenching it and applying organic fertilizer . You can see the fronds are getting progressively larger and the crown is fattening up. A couple more years and it will be even nicer. Harry

Definitely it was in need of considerably more tlc!

[Phoenikakias]

On 12/16/2025 at 1:07 PM, Than said:

Most ones you find in shops are 18 g/m which is a joke. The 30 g/m I'll put it on the least sensitive plant.. I'll make sure no fronds touch the fleece..

Have you consulted Mavroides for this kind of protection?

[Than]

10 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Have you consulted Mavroides for this kind of protection?

No thanks. He uses proper greenhouses anyway.

Tonight I did everything properly and yet the temperature inside the fleece was consistently lower than outside. I honestly don't understand. I'll start a thread here on Palmtalk and see what experience others have had. 

[Than]

On 12/16/2025 at 4:09 PM, Harry’s Palms said:

Oh , I push the zone on a few but I don’t protect them . I plant them close to other palms and then they are on their own . I don’t get frost here and most have adapted to our weather . I have lost palms that are just too tropical for my area. If I lived in an area that required protection , I may have a different attitude . About 25 years ago I spent $100 on a small Roystonia Oleracae that was not supposed to make it here , my lows in winter can reach 38f for a few hours. I planted it next to a larger Syagrus R. for protection. It is still there , now catching up to the Queen . Now we know they are much more tolerant to temperate climate than was originally believed. Our winters seem milder nowadays but that can change . Harry

‘My zone push success. I’m sure it would look much better in a more tropical climate . One thing I learned here on Palm Talk is that it wasn’t getting enough water. This is only a year and a half after drenching it and applying organic fertilizer . You can see the fronds are getting progressively larger and the crown is fattening up. A couple more years and it will be even nicer. Harry

The fortune of living in zone 10.. you can have enough wonderful species without pushing the zone (much). We in zone 9 though need to do some serious zone pushing if we want to see a crownshaft!

[Phoenikakias]

Aha, I think I can detect some sympathy on your behalf to this person, like me with Gergiopoulos par exemple (actually I hold no animosity, I find him rather amusing 🤡). Try to find posts by Kevin Spence in the EPS. He protects his more tender palms every winter only overhead through seasonally permanent constructions and it has worked perfectly. Apparently the location of your property further inland in a plain is not exposed to strong wind, which enables you to plug in to the soil 4 posts around each plant and nail a polycarbonate roof on top of them.

[Phoenikakias]

46 minutes ago, Than said:

The fortune of living in zone 10.. you can have enough wonderful species without pushing the zone (much). We in zone 9 though need to do some serious zone pushing if we want to see a crownshaft!

Well not entirely so.  An A. cunninghamiana or an Albang will probably thrive without any winter protection.

[Than]

4 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Well not entirely so.  An A. cunninghamiana or an Albang will probably thrive without any winter protection.

Never heard of Albang before; I had to google to see what it is! Is it smth you find in Greek nurseries? I only see Alexandras every time I go to one and the owner always says "this is too sensitive to cold" and I wanna scream "then why don't you bring Cunninghamianas instead???" 😆

Anyway, my point was that it would be nice to have some more variety in zone 9 but it is what it is.

[Phoenikakias]

32 minutes ago, Than said:

Never heard of Albang before; I had to google to see what it is! Is it smth you find in Greek nurseries? I only see Alexandras every time I go to one and the owner always says "this is too sensitive to cold" and I wanna scream "then why don't you bring Cunninghamianas instead???" 😆

Anyway, my point was that it would be nice to have some more variety in zone 9 but it is what it is.

rps are offering right now Albang seeds. The greatest disadvantage of cunninhamiana is that it is very tender to strong wind and very dry air. Unfortunately both coblnditions are present in my garden during summer and therefore I can grow one only in very protected spots. A rather exposed Albang instead survives and grows but it looks like sh* most of the time; suffice to say that it is producing new fronds right now after the recent heavy downpours and low temps! All summer long it stood idle and older leaves died in a slow decline mode. Btw what is the air humidity right now in your place? In my garden it is 58%!

[Than]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

rps are offering right now Albang seeds. The greatest disadvantage of cunninhamiana is that it is very tender to strong wind and very dry air. Unfortunately both coblnditions are present in my garden during summer and therefore I can grow one only in very protected spots. A rather exposed Albang instead survives and grows but it looks like sh* most of the time; suffice to say that it is producing new fronds right now after the recent heavy downpours and low temps! All summer long it stood idle and older leaves died in a slow decline mode. Btw what is the air humidity right now in your place? In my garden it is 58%!

Hmmmm my cunninhams kept growing during summer but they are under thick canopy. They are still growing a new leaf now. Humidity right now at 1.15pm is 67% and temperature is 18.5 C

[Phoenikakias]

In my garden at this moment 19.5 C and 55% humidity and it is winter. During high summer in afternoon air humidity is lower than say 30%. Noway I can help it. 

[Than]

31 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

In my garden at this moment 19.5 C and 55% humidity and it is winter. During high summer in afternoon air humidity is lower than say 30%. Noway I can help it. 

Yeah I remember once in Makri it was 10%.. last summer here I didn't see anything less than 30%.. 

I was thinking yesterday that our much praised climate, sucks for our hobby. Our friends in San Francisco, New Zealand, South California, Florida.. have only one season to worry about; be it the summer (south California) or the winter (Florida, SF..). We have two bad seasons: a very hot and dry summer and a cool but wet winter. Only 4 months a year are actually good for our palms: April, May, October and November. 

In S. California they have a dry and hot summer that may damage their palms, but from what I have gathered their winter is a walk in the park, much drier and a bit warmer than ours. In SF area winter can get chilly but from April to November their palms must be very happy. Same with Florida.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

Yeah I remember once in Makri it was 10%.. last summer here I didn't see anything less than 30%.. 

I was thinking yesterday that our much praised climate, sucks for our hobby. Our friends in San Francisco, New Zealand, South California, Florida.. have only one season to worry about; be it the summer (south California) or the winter (Florida, SF..). We have two bad seasons: a very hot and dry summer and a cool but wet winter. Only 4 months a year are actually good for our palms: April, May, October and November. 

In S. California they have a dry and hot summer that may damage their palms, but from what I have gathered their winter is a walk in the park, much drier and a bit warmer than ours. In SF area winter can get chilly but from April to November their palms must be very happy. Same with Florida.

You are welcome to the club!

[Harry’s Palms]

This year was kind to us , but some years are very hot and dry from August through December , but only periodically . I have beach pebbles and wood chips that I soak in the morning . The evaporative effect helps tremendously , especially under the canopy of the larger palms. Our year round climate is kind to our gardens and very moderate for the most part . My biggest complaint is the dry , offshore winds from high pressure systems. The winds can reach 90mph or more! In 1995 we had gusts of 110mph that blew over two of my Queen palms at my old house. This year has been mild with only a couple of mild heat/wind events. 
   When I started this palm journey , my mentor told me we can grow more varieties of palms than  most climates . San Diego is even better with some very nice Bottle Palms ( Hyophorb ) in the same yard as Howea Foresteriana. Tropical locations have trouble with species that grow freely in my yard. Triangle Palms , Kentia Palms , California and Mexican Fan Palms , Brahea and Sabal right along side other more tropical species . I think the best would be sub tropical like @happypalms . Richard , is growing many cold hardy palms along with zone pushing tropicals regularly . Harry

[Harry’s Palms]

I just checked our forecast and it seems our “ Indian Summer “ is about to leave . I was 80f at my house yesterday with only mild offshore winds . A change is coming !   Harry

‘The low temps you see are for the city below our hill . My lows are generally 2-3 degrees warmer up here . You can see the wind direction is still out of the northeast ( offshore) . Living on a sailboat and sailing our westerly islands for many years taught me to be vigilant with weather . Knowing weather systems is not only helpful to gardeners , but can save your life at sea. Harry

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Than said:

Yeah I remember once in Makri it was 10%.. last summer here I didn't see anything less than 30%.. 

I was thinking yesterday that our much praised climate, sucks for our hobby. Our friends in San Francisco, New Zealand, South California, Florida.. have only one season to worry about; be it the summer (south California) or the winter (Florida, SF..). We have two bad seasons: a very hot and dry summer and a cool but wet winter. Only 4 months a year are actually good for our palms: April, May, October and November. 

In S. California they have a dry and hot summer that may damage their palms, but from what I have gathered their winter is a walk in the park, much drier and a bit warmer than ours. In SF area winter can get chilly but from April to November their palms must be very happy. Same with Florida.

Besides winter in SoCA ends in February, while in our latitude it frequently starts right then! Watch carefully the dresses ladies wear in the open as they enter the Dolby Theatre for the Academy Awards (late February). This gives a tremendous advantage in terms of annual growth rate.

[Than]

14 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Besides winter in SoCA ends in February, while in our latitude it frequently starts right then! Watch carefully the dresses ladies wear in the open as they enter the Dolby Theatre for the Academy Awards (late February). This gives a tremendous advantage in terms of annual growth rate.

HahahHAHAHAH!! I bet they would dress sexy even if a polar vortex was blowing on their face.

This reminds me of the winter in north India. I froze to death for 3 weeks in January and then it was 25 C in February. Spring literally came in 10 days! This is how cocos survives there, even though they didn't look great.

[Mazat]

2 hours ago, Than said:

HahahHAHAHAH!! I bet they would dress sexy even if a polar vortex was blowing on their face.

This reminds me of the winter in north India. I froze to death for 3 weeks in January and then it was 25 C in February. Spring literally came in 10 days! This is how cocos survives there, even though they didn't look great.

I can well imagine that, Than😬

[Mazat]

3 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

I just checked our forecast and it seems our “ Indian Summer “ is about to leave . I was 80f at my house yesterday with only mild offshore winds . A change is coming !   Harry

‘The low temps you see are for the city below our hill . My lows are generally 2-3 degrees warmer up here . You can see the wind direction is still out of the northeast ( offshore) . Living on a sailboat and sailing our westerly islands for many years taught me to be vigilant with weather . Knowing weather systems is not only helpful to gardeners , but can save your life at sea. Harry

We had the opportunity to experience this on the rather small Lake Walen with my uncle Gen's small sailboat. The foehn wind had arrived earlier than expected, and we were just able to react—my uncle and Otto, that is. I was shocked and surprised at the same time, being only 16, but Otto, who was also there, reacted immediately. He had sailed in the Mediterranean with relatives before...

[Mazat]

On 12/15/2025 at 5:39 PM, Than said:

It's this time of the year again, when my garden becomes full with eery ghosts. 

A ghost jungle. A good thing 😁

[Mazat]

3 hours ago, Than said:

HahahHAHAHAH!! I bet they would dress sexy even if a polar vortex was blowing on their face.

This reminds me of the winter in north India. I froze to death for 3 weeks in January and then it was 25 C in February. Spring literally came in 10 days! This is how cocos survives there, even though they didn't look great.

You've already won this bet, Than.

My twin sister Lisa dresses like that even in the depths of winter.

It's hard to believe that, besides fashion and clothes, she's also interested in art history...

[Than]

OK I'm very happy today. I put the temperature sensors on ground level and the temperature inside the fleece has been almost 4 C higher than outside the whole night! I included some concrete blocks left under the sun and a 10 lt black bottle full of water, also left under the sun during the day. This setting seems to have worked. Apparently the difference is greater near the ground but neutralises higher up. 

Today I'm off to the shops to buy more black bottles!

[Harry’s Palms]

Great news! That should do it as long as there is sun to warm up your heaters. I used 1 gallon bottles that I would set in the sun while I was out surfing . Surprising how warm the water was when I used it to rinse the salt water off after a session in our cold Pacific Ocean. It felt like heaven . I imagine that’s how your palms feel. Harry

[Phoenikakias]

57 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Great news! That should do it as long as there is sun to warm up your heaters. I used 1 gallon bottles that I would set in the sun while I was out surfing . Surprising how warm the water was when I used it to rinse the salt water off after a session in our cold Pacific Ocean. It felt like heaven . I imagine that’s how your palms feel. Harry

That's what I try always to point out!  Now go figure out what advantage it may create a black soil fabric laid around the root zone. But you need sunny day and southern exposure (in northern hemisphere)

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Great news! That should do it as long as there is sun to warm up your heaters. I used 1 gallon bottles that I would set in the sun while I was out surfing . Surprising how warm the water was when I used it to rinse the salt water off after a session in our cold Pacific Ocean. It felt like heaven . I imagine that’s how your palms feel. Harry

What was your low in the early hours today?

[Than]

28 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

What was your low in the early hours today?

I'm attaching a photo of my thermometer this dawn. Inside the fleece and right outside. Ground level.