Embarrassing palm ID request

[Than]

I should be able to ID this quickly by now but.. 

Looks like sylvestris but I'm not sure. It's in my town, in southern Greece, about 2 km from the sea.

 

[John2468]

Looks like a Phoenix canariensis x reclinata hybrid.

[Darold Petty]

Than, don't be embarrassed.  The only embarrassing trait is lack of curiosity. 

[Mazat]

50 minutes ago, Than said:

I should be able to ID this quickly by now but.. 

Looks like sylvestris but I'm not sure. It's in my town, in southern Greece, about 2 km from the sea.

 

A beautiful Phoenix dactylifera, in my opinion.

Great photo, Than 😃

Where is this?

Curiosity is always good in such matters.

 

[Than]

45 minutes ago, Mazat said:

A beautiful Phoenix dactylifera, in my opinion.

Great photo, Than 😃

Where is this?

Curiosity is always good in such matters.

 

Nah I don't think it's a date palm. The fronds would be much longer and arching. It's in Kalamata.

[SCVpalmenthusiast]

Looks like a senegal date palm Pheonix reclinata. 

[96720]

Phoenix reclinata is a clumping palm and if you worked to make it a single the trunk would be much thinner!!

[tim_brissy_13]

Well no 2 IDs the same yet from the Palmtalk community so definitely far from an embarrassing question. 
 

I’d be very confident there’s P canariensis influence in this one, but I think it’s a hybrid too. John’s P canariensis x reclinata guess seems reasonable to me. 

[Janni]

Looks like a phoenix hybrid to me. Most likely canariensis x dactylifera, because you don‘t find other phoenix species in Greece than those two (and roebellenii)

[Than]

17 minutes ago, Janni said:

Looks like a phoenix hybrid to me. Most likely canariensis x dactylifera, because you don‘t find other phoenix species in Greece than those two (and roebellenii)

How would mixing two species with long fronds produce one with such a short, compact crown? 

[sonoranfans]

Surely a hybrid, sylvestris is a smaller relatively thin trunked palm that doesn't grow so tall and has a smaller crown with less rigid petioles.  I cant add anything new to the hybrid ID.  The dactylifera have biplanar leaf arrangements, that one almost appears a flat arrangement as a CIDP would be.  This could be a hybrid crossed several times.  I see many more sylvestris hybrids than pure sylvestris here in florida.

[Tomas]

21 hours ago, Janni said:

Looks like a phoenix hybrid to me. Most likely canariensis x dactylifera, because you don‘t find other phoenix species in Greece than those two (and roebellenii)

I would say the same about the hybrids in Rome, most probably canariensis x dactylifera, considering the frequency of the parents

[Than]

22 minutes ago, Tomas said:

I would say the same about the hybrids in Rome, most probably canariensis x dactylifera, considering the frequency of the parents

There is actually a tropical palm enthusiast who lives in the town and he has convinced the town council to plant some rare species. The town is now adorned with Bauhinias, Erythrinas, even a couple of Kigelias. In his own property he has Arch. alexandrae, Wodyetia, coffea arabica etc. So I suspect that he could be behind this palm too! 

[Tomas]

1 hour ago, Than said:

There is actually a tropical palm enthusiast who lives in the town and he has convinced the town council to plant some rare species. The town is now adorned with Bauhinias, Erythrinas, even a couple of Kigelias. In his own property he has Arch. alexandrae, Wodyetia, coffea arabica etc. So I suspect that he could be behind this palm too! 

This palm may be well over one hundred years old!

[TropicsEnjoyer]

I would say canary x dacty or canary x sylvestris

No reclinata since it lacks clumping and has a decently thick trunk. At least in my opinion. I saw a similar looking palm in pompeii when I traveled there but unfortunately I didnt get a picture.

[PalmBossTampa]

Why not consider this within the genetic trait range for CIDP ? We expect the stereotypical dimensions too often and fullness of canopy.  Are there any small shoots beneath? They wouldn’t be seedlings if the other gender isnt nearby so maybe a cross. Very old palm regardless and good genetics for that climate.

[PalmBossTampa]

22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Surely a hybrid, sylvestris is a smaller relatively thin trunked palm that doesn't grow so tall and has a smaller crown with less rigid petioles.  I cant add anything new to the hybrid ID.  The dactylifera have biplanar leaf arrangements, that one almost appears a flat arrangement as a CIDP would be.  This could be a hybrid crossed several times.  I see many more sylvestris hybrids than pure sylvestris here in florida.

I like to brainstorm traits for hybridization too, BUT we also have to consider the age of this palm. The popularity of hybrids in this genus were likely related to date palm production and this doesn’t look Dactylifera at all to me. I think it’s just a very old Canary Island Date Palm. Ive seen soooo many old CIDP in Central and south FL and they vary in characteristic very much but the dense fibrous old leaf bases  are the tell and trunk scar pattern showing slower growth rate compared to the others.  Just my thoughts though like everyone else’s just a guess from fuzzy pic

[Than]

8 hours ago, PalmBossTampa said:

I like to brainstorm traits for hybridization too, BUT we also have to consider the age of this palm. The popularity of hybrids in this genus were likely related to date palm production and this doesn’t look Dactylifera at all to me. I think it’s just a very old Canary Island Date Palm. Ive seen soooo many old CIDP in Central and south FL and they vary in characteristic very much but the dense fibrous old leaf bases  are the tell and trunk scar pattern showing slower growth rate compared to the others.  Just my thoughts though like everyone else’s just a guess from fuzzy pic

It's not just the crown though. Isn't the trunk also too thin for a CIDP?

[Phoenikakias]

It is a conundrum, cause we do not have enough data, like WHEN does it bloom and whether it is MALE or FEMALE! I am inclined to id it as Phoenix porphyrocarpa, whatever this taxon may be in various instances.  What confuses me though, is how did a canary (yes porphyrocarpa should be actually a type of canary) manage to escape demise by rpw.  I had claimed in the past, (for those who follow my posts it is already known, I do not wish to sound like a CE prophet) that porphyrocarpa is more resistant to rpw. Other people contested this information, but pay attention please: porphyrocarpa has been used rather in a descriptive manner, i.e. any palm resembling a CIDP and producing red dates is called porphyrocarpa.  Anyway what Prof. Diego Rivera e.a. described as Phoenix porphyrocarpa in his study (which was found to be a variation of CIDP), looks a lot like this specimen (if memory serves me correctly). Especially in same study is mentioned, that this taxon has not very robust trunk. Besides female canary specimens are less susceptible to rpw than male ones, and this information lies beyond any doubt.  Same applies on dactylifera with an exception: if fruits are left fermenting on the tree. Then rpw is attracted also to the female specimens. Thus far only I have been able to help. Some monitoring of this specimen's life cycle would certainly help to a more positive identification.

[Phoenikakias]

12 hours ago, Than said:

There is actually a tropical palm enthusiast who lives in the town and he has convinced the town council to plant some rare species. The town is now adorned with Bauhinias, Erythrinas, even a couple of Kigelias. In his own property he has Arch. alexandrae, Wodyetia, coffea arabica etc. So I suspect that he could be behind this palm too! 

Are you referring to Georgiopoulos?

[Phoenikakias]

13 hours ago, Tomas said:

I would say the same about the hybrids in Rome, most probably canariensis x dactylifera, considering the frequency of the parents

Supposed it is a hybrid, where did it come from and how was created. In my climate CIDP and dactylifera bloom in very different seasons!

[Phoenikakias]

On 12/6/2025 at 10:17 PM, Than said:

How would mixing two species with long fronds produce one with such a short, compact crown? 

Very good question! Perfect supplement to my reply right above... On a side note  this palms looks like suffering from chronic nutritional deficiency and it is also  uncertain, whether it receives adequate water. Both factors may affect frond size though!

[Tomas]

38 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Supposed it is a hybrid, where did it come from and how was created. In my climate CIDP and dactylifera bloom in very different seasons!

A quick search with AI Mode:

No, the two species do not have distinct, non-overlapping flowering periods. Their bloom cycles overlap significantly, which is the primary reason hybridization is so common

[Phoenikakias]

NOTin my climate. I have made it already clear in my post.

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

It is a conundrum, cause we do not have enough data, like WHEN does it bloom and whether it is MALE or FEMALE! I am inclined to id it as Phoenix porphyrocarpa, whatever this taxon may be in various instances.  What confuses me though, is how did a canary (yes porphyrocarpa should be actually a type of canary) manage to escape demise by rpw.  I had claimed in the past, (for those who follow my posts it is already known, I do not wish to sound like a CE prophet) that porphyrocarpa is more resistant to rpw. Other people contested this information, but pay attention please: porphyrocarpa has been used rather in a descriptive manner, i.e. any palm resembling a CIDP and producing red dates is called porphyrocarpa.  Anyway what Prof. Diego Rivera e.a. described as Phoenix porphyrocarpa in his study (which was found to be a variation of CIDP), looks a lot like this specimen (if memory serves me correctly). Especially in same study is mentioned, that this taxon has not very robust trunk. Besides female canary specimens are less susceptible to rpw than male ones, and this information lies beyond any doubt.  Same applies on dactylifera with an exception: if fruits are left fermenting on the tree. Then rpw is attracted also to the female specimens. Thus far only I have been able to help. Some monitoring of this specimen's life cycle would certainly help to a more positive identification.

It is the taxon called Phoenix senegalensis in literature.

 

[Phoenikakias]

Blank

[Phoenikakias]

On 12/6/2025 at 4:59 PM, Than said:

I should be able to ID this quickly by now but.. 

Looks like sylvestris but I'm not sure. It's in my town, in southern Greece, about 2 km from the sea.

 

 

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Very good question! Perfect supplement to my reply right above... On a side note  this palms looks like suffering from chronic nutritional deficiency and it is also  uncertain, whether it receives adequate water. Both factors may affect frond size though!

There has to be a plausible reason, that a botanist had been led once to describe Phoenix cycadifolia from Athens, which is now accepted as a synonym to canariensis.

https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v15n1p33-35.pdf

[Than]

3 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Are you referring to Georgiopoulos?

Ofc

[Mazat]

4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Very good question! Perfect supplement to my reply right above... On a side note  this palms looks like suffering from chronic nutritional deficiency and it is also  uncertain, whether it receives adequate water. Both factors may affect frond size though!

Konstantinos, then it must be the case that this palm tree—I really thought it is a Phoenix dactylifera—is simply not healthy...

 

[Phoenikakias]

54 minutes ago, Mazat said:

Konstantinos, then it must be the case that this palm tree—I really thought it is a Phoenix dactylifera—is simply not healthy...

 

One may argue this way!

[Phoenikakias]

On 12/6/2025 at 4:59 PM, Than said:

I should be able to ID this quickly by now but.. 

Looks like sylvestris but I'm not sure. It's in my town, in southern Greece, about 2 km from the sea.

 

Surprise, surprise Than!

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/26259-varieties-of-phoenix-canariensis/

[dalmatiansoap]

Here's porphyrocarpa from Makarska promenade. 

Pictures from last weekend. To bad I didn't take a picture of it with other regular Canariensis in row to see crown difference 

[Phoenikakias]

14 hours ago, dalmatiansoap said:

Here's porphyrocarpa from Makarska promenade. 

Pictures from last weekend. To bad I didn't take a picture of it with other regular Canariensis in row to see crown difference 

Yep, this one looks a lot like mine. Straight leaves, and the lack of arching make them seem even longer. Mine has however longer flower penducles. Which months/season does this specimen bloom?

[Than]

I could never tell this from a CIDP.. 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Than said:

I could never tell this from a CIDP.. 

Lol you still have to eat many loafs...

[Phoenikakias]

[dalmatiansoap]

@Than it's pretty obvious when you see them side by side.

@Phoenikakias honestly I don't know, there are some fruits still on the stalk, spring time I guess