Palm hybrid vigor questions

[Fusca]

Most all of us have a hybrid of some kind - mule palm, foxy lady, etc.  These are crosses from different genera and grow fast.  Then there are crosses involving different species from the same genus such as the coconut queen, tribear and these have some hybrid vigor also.  I'm curious if these hybrids show less vigor than the hybrids of those from different gernera or is it the same?

And what about hybrids of dioecious palms like Phoenix?  Does that make a difference?  I'm currently growing a couple of Phoenix hybrids and they don't seem to be growing any faster than their parents.  I recently obtained a Trachycarpus wagnerianus x fortunei and I wonder if that is even considered a hybrid because wagnerianus isn't considered a separate species but rather a different form of fortunei.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[JohnAndSancho]

My Butia hybrid was an absolute monster before it got left in the cold. It regularly pushed itself up out of its pot. I can't speak on the Trachy hybrids since as of today I've got a baby in the yard, a baby in the Palm ICU, and a bunch of Waggy x Fortunei that are all maybe fingernail sized, and my Phoenix hybrids are all still seeds in baggies. 

[tim_brissy_13]

It really seems case by case dependent to me. I’ve got a few Chrysalidocarpus intra generic hybrids and they all seem vigorous to the point that neither parent would thrive or maybe even survive yet the hybrids are fast and robust. 
 

I haven’t got any cocoid hybrids, but I think I’ve heard sometimes a cross can be sluggish  compared to its reverse (Syagrus x Butia vs Butia x Syagrus maybe?). 

[happypalms]

Argh hybrids why hybrids, yes I have two in my garden and that was only due to the fact they snuck into my collection unnoticed. Would I ever really be into them in a big way not really. Iam against hybrids for obvious reasons, yes Mother Nature does create her own in certain places in habitat but that’s her doing. When we interfere with this process I feel that in the future when the environment has changed and the palms in the wild are extinct we will need to call on cultivated plants to save these plants. Then through our own interference the gene pool will be mixed up and the plants lost due to human intervention. This is not good just look at GMO crops the corn blight in America years ago had shown us what will happen, it’s not only our palms at threat by hybrids but our food crops that could be at risk as well, thank god we have seed banks is all I can say because the way the planet is heading we will need these gene pool seed banks just to survive. Some may disagree with what I say some may agree it’s just my opinion each to their own. But I will be removing the flower spathes on my palms when they flower!

[Fusca]

20 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

It really seems case by case dependent to me. I’ve got a few Chrysalidocarpus intra generic hybrids and they all seem vigorous to the point that neither parent would thrive or maybe even survive yet the hybrids are fast and robust. 

I haven’t got any cocoid hybrids, but I think I’ve heard sometimes a cross can be sluggish  compared to its reverse (Syagrus x Butia vs Butia x Syagrus maybe?). 

I think you're right, as with most things "it depends".  I have heard the same as what you said about Chrysalidocarpus hybrids.  But I haven't yet read anyone mentioning hybrid vigor with regards to Phoenix hybrids or Chamaedorea hybrids which I don't have any experience with.  And if you were to cross a green Chamaerops humilis with a Chamaerops humilis 'argentea' would it even be considered a hybrid?  Not that anyone's intentionally tried it but I seriously doubt that it would grow faster.  Maybe it would?

[5am]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

And if you were to cross a green Chamaerops humilis with a Chamaerops humilis 'argentea' would it even be considered a hybrid?

I have long wondered if Sabal minor ‘Louisiana’ x Sabal minor would produce a faster trunkless minor. Would Louisiana x Tamaulipas make a monster? 

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, 5am said:

I have long wondered if Sabal minor ‘Louisiana’ x Sabal minor would produce a faster trunkless minor. Would Louisiana x Tamaulipas make a monster? 

Isn't Sabal 'Tamaulipas' just one of a dozen variations of Sabal minor?  'Louisiana' gets pretty big by itself.  

[JohnAndSancho]

7 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Isn't Sabal 'Tamaulipas' just one of a dozen variations of Sabal minor?  'Louisiana' gets pretty big by itself.  

 

1 hour ago, 5am said:

I have long wondered if Sabal minor ‘Louisiana’ x Sabal minor would produce a faster trunkless minor. Would Louisiana x Tamaulipas make a monster? 

Can we get a trunking blue or silver Sabal that grows like a Washy? Better yet, one that grows like a banana. 

[5am]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Isn't Sabal 'Tamaulipas' just one of a dozen variations of Sabal minor?

I believe it just gained species status as Sabal tamaulipensis https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/PALMSv69n3p127-134-Grinage-Sabal.pdf

[sonoranfans]

Some hybrids have vigor and some dont.  I had (4) small jubutiagrus, some hated florida and were mold spot susceptible and some were OK.  One of the 4 was pretty much free of mold spot, but I gave that one away.   I kept the fastest growing one and it eventually was covered in mold spot so I edited it.  F1 genetics are a mixed bag, some are much more sickly than others and the genetic expression of traits varies among siblings.   I would suggest you pick from a skilled hybridizer.  A few extra bucks for more confidence in a many years investment doesn't seem like such a bad deal.   On the phoenix hybrids, if they like your climate they will do well.   Hybrid vigor depends on how they are challenged.  If you are an inattentive grower, some will be less needy than others with respect to watering and fertilization.  Perhaps the most popular reason to form hybrids is to improve cold hardiness while retaining attractive appearance of the lesser palm in cold hardiness.  Coco Queen was one of the many attempts at a cold hardy coconut.  Phoenix cold hardiness are in groups.  My own opinion is that some hybrids Ive seen are not as attractive as one of the parents and no more cold hardy.  

[Phoenikakias]

I have a roebelifera specimen, that blooms almost from late winter to early summer constantly! It is fast but suffers from chronic  potassium deficiency and nothing seems to help.