Not my strong point Sabal palms, iam sure the palm gurus will know what variety it is thanks. 

Richard the Sabal are difficult to identify

I think you’ll struggle to get a positive ID Richard. Gyuseppe’s point is valid; some species are basically only consistently distinguishable by inflorescence and fruit/seed size and shape. In addition, your palm looks to be stretched out a bit from growing in part shade so that impacts typical growth habit. 
 

Id be fairly confident it’s one of S palmetto, S mexicana or S bermudana. If you’ve got photos of fruit or seeds we might be able to ID. 

stretchy Sabal causiarum is my bet without seeing inflorescences

1 hour ago, gyuseppe said:

Richard the Sabal are difficult to identify

Yes that’s what I thought, this is why I have never found out what Sabal it  is.

16 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I think you’ll struggle to get a positive ID Richard. Gyuseppe’s point is valid; some species are basically only consistently distinguishable by inflorescence and fruit/seed size and shape. In addition, your palm looks to be stretched out a bit from growing in part shade so that impacts typical growth habit. 
 

Id be fairly confident it’s one of S palmetto, S mexicana or S bermudana. If you’ve got photos of fruit or seeds we might be able to ID. 

It has always been a mystery to me. It was given to me 30 years ago by an old palm grower. There are a few seeds higher up that are black but I think I missed there true colour, I think green seeds I have seen over the years. But a mystery to me. 

9 minutes ago, knell said:

stretchy Sabal causiarum is my bet without seeing inflorescences

I will start looking in the causiarum direction thanks. 

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I think you’ll struggle to get a positive ID Richard. Gyuseppe’s point is valid; some species are basically only consistently distinguishable by inflorescence and fruit/seed size and shape. In addition, your palm looks to be stretched out a bit from growing in part shade so that impacts typical growth habit. 
 

Id be fairly confident it’s one of S palmetto, S mexicana or S bermudana. If you’ve got photos of fruit or seeds we might be able to ID. 

Tim, I would start by ruling out Bermudana , mine have wider leaves, but I could only be sure of that by seeing it in person.

Causiarum usually have a fat trunk but under all that shade maybe not?

2 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Causiarum usually have a fat trunk but under all that shade maybe not?

Thanks iam sort of going with a common Sabal due to the fact it was given to me many years ago. 

4 minutes ago, happypalms said:

Thanks iam sort of going with a common Sabal due to the fact it was given to me many years ago. 

Would Sabal Bermuda be the one. With a bit of recurved leaf and the seeds look familiar on palmpedia? 

20 minutes ago, happypalms said:

Would Sabal Bermuda be the one. With a bit of recurved leaf and the seeds look familiar on palmpedia? 

I don't think the inflorescence is right for bermudana based on the Zona monograph. I would say it's a palmetto, or maybe mexicana.

Seeing the inflorescence I’d be leaning towards S palmetto Richard. Looks at least the length of the petioles? Fruit size would determine between S palmetto and S mexicana. Smaller than 0.6” (1.5mm) palmetto, larger than= mexicana. 
 

For what it’s worth I’m not seeing the typical traits of S causiarum or any of the other huge Sabals. 

4 minutes ago, aabell said:

I don't think the inflorescence is right for bermudana based on the Zona monograph. I would say it's a palmetto, or maybe mexicana.

Beat me to it. My thoughts exactly. 

16 minutes ago, aabell said:

I don't think the inflorescence is right for bermudana based on the Zona monograph. I would say it's a palmetto, or maybe mexicana.

I will try to some more detailed photos thanks.

13 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Seeing the inflorescence I’d be leaning towards S palmetto Richard. Looks at least the length of the petioles? Fruit size would determine between S palmetto and S mexicana. Smaller than 0.6” (1.5mm) palmetto, larger than= mexicana. 
 

For what it’s worth I’m not seeing the typical traits of S causiarum or any of the other huge Sabals. 

Who would have thought a humble Sabal would give so much ID problems. Will try for more detailed pictures, I know the rules we need more pics.

3 hours ago, happypalms said:

Would Sabal Bermuda be the one. With a bit of recurved leaf and the seeds look familiar on palmpedia? 

Richard, you're stubborn! (I'm kidding, of course)
I told Tim to rule out Bermudiana and different ones from mine bermudiana, but to be sure, I'd have to come to your house and see it up close, my friend!
(sorry again  for saying you have a hard head)

7 hours ago, happypalms said:

Thanks iam sort of going with a common Sabal due to the fact it was given to me many years ago. 

On this side of the pond, "common" are palmetto, mexicana, and minor. Unusual to find the Caribbean varieties here 

If you can be Sabal Causiarum

leaf bases and trunk are too thick and heavy to be sabal palmetto based on the thousands I've seen growing under canopy in the forest here.  Palmettos can be very elongated but like I said the leaf bases on this palm are too heavy/thick.  Its not sabal minor but it could be another carribean sabal like bermudana.  Hard to tell from the dead/twisted inflorescences.  The length of the inflorescence of sabal causiarum is a couple feet longer than the leaves and the fruits are 7-10mm.   I haven't seen many species of sabals that are so shaded and elongated.  Also very few domingensis have been posted on this board, I cant remember an advanced state juvenile even in 18 years here.   Causiarum petioles on mine are much thicker and dont bend much if at all but its also in full sun.  I couldn't make a good guess based on lack of fruit, lack of order of inflorescences(might be 3?) and their length relative to leaves.  I do have a pic of a sabal causiarum developing fruits with 3rd order inflorescences and the long inflorescences extending past the leaves.  The ligules on mine developed after trunking, used to be less than 18" long, and were never green in color.  As it became taller, you couldn't see them any more.  Some of these morphological features may change some in different environments.  Mine was originally labelled as domingensis by the grower, and I thought it was so as it didnt show ligules before trunking.  And the ligules that appeared graduallya fter trunking were short and never green as in others posted here.  But according to Zona in his sabal monograph the inflorescences of domingensis were 4th order and the fruits were 10-14mm in diameter.  The fruits on mine are consistently 7-9mm.  Might be this one is an undernourished causiarum but the trunk on mine is massively larger(at least 2-3x) and the petioles much thicker and very rigid.  The inflorescence holds the key.  As seen in the pic the inflorescences are 3rd order.

 

I think we'll all have to go to Richard's house to decide what variety of Sabal we can find.

25 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

leaf bases and trunk are too thick and heavy to be sabal palmetto based on the thousands I've seen growing under canopy in the forest here.  Palmettos can be very elongated but like I said the leaf bases on this palm are too heavy/thick.  Its not sabal minor but it could be another carribean sabal like bermudana.  Hard to tell from the dead/twisted inflorescences.  The length of the inflorescence of sabal causiarum is a couple feet longer than the leaves and the fruits are 7-10mm.   I haven't seen many species of sabals that are so shaded and elongated.  Also very few domingensis have been posted on this board, I cant remember an advanced state juvenile even in 18 years here.   Causiarum petioles on mine are much thicker and dont bend much if at all but its also in full sun.  I couldn't make a good guess based on lack of fruit, lack of order of inflorescences(might be 3?) and their length relative to leaves.  I do have a pic of a sabal causiarum developing fruits with 3rd order inflorescences and the long inflorescences extending past the leaves.  The ligules on mine developed after trunking, used to be less than 18" long, and were never green in color.  As it became taller, you couldn't see them any more.  Some of these morphological features may change some in different environments.  Mine was originally labelled as domingensis by the grower, and I thought it was so as it didnt show ligules before trunking.  And the ligules that appeared graduallya fter trunking were short and never green as in others posted here.  But according to Zona in his sabal monograph the inflorescences of domingensis were 4th order and the fruits were 10-14mm in diameter.  The fruits on mine are consistently 7-9mm.  Might be this one is an undernourished causiarum but the trunk on mine is massively larger(at least 2-3x) and the petioles much thicker and very rigid.  The inflorescence holds the key.  As seen in the pic the inflorescences are 3rd order.

 

According to the monograph S. mauritiiformis is the only species with 4 orders of branching on the inflorescence - 3 is the "norm". Here is a palm labelled S. causiarum in Ft Myers but the fruit is larger and exactly in range for the description of S. dominguensis, so I suspect it is mislabeled. 

6 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

Richard, you're stubborn! (I'm kidding, of course)
I told Tim to rule out Bermudiana and different ones from mine bermudiana, but to be sure, I'd have to come to your house and see it up close, my friend!
(sorry again  for saying you have a hard head)

Oh yeah gyuseppe, like a bull at a gate! I will pick you up at the airport, just  let me know what time! 

48 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

leaf bases and trunk are too thick and heavy to be sabal palmetto based on the thousands I've seen growing under canopy in the forest here.  Palmettos can be very elongated but like I said the leaf bases on this palm are too heavy/thick.  Its not sabal minor but it could be another carribean sabal like bermudana.  Hard to tell from the dead/twisted inflorescences.  The length of the inflorescence of sabal causiarum is a couple feet longer than the leaves and the fruits are 7-10mm.   I haven't seen many species of sabals that are so shaded and elongated.  Also very few domingensis have been posted on this board, I cant remember an advanced state juvenile even in 18 years here.   Causiarum petioles on mine are much thicker and dont bend much if at all but its also in full sun.  I couldn't make a good guess based on lack of fruit, lack of order of inflorescences(might be 3?) and their length relative to leaves.  I do have a pic of a sabal causiarum developing fruits with 3rd order inflorescences and the long inflorescences extending past the leaves.  The ligules on mine developed after trunking, used to be less than 18" long, and were never green in color.  As it became taller, you couldn't see them any more.  Some of these morphological features may change some in different environments.  Mine was originally labelled as domingensis by the grower, and I thought it was so as it didnt show ligules before trunking.  And the ligules that appeared graduallya fter trunking were short and never green as in others posted here.  But according to Zona in his sabal monograph the inflorescences of domingensis were 4th order and the fruits were 10-14mm in diameter.  The fruits on mine are consistently 7-9mm.  Might be this one is an undernourished causiarum but the trunk on mine is massively larger(at least 2-3x) and the petioles much thicker and very rigid.  The inflorescence holds the key.  As seen in the pic the inflorescences are 3rd order.

 

Thanks, it does have an inflo similar to the picture above but definitely not as long. Your detailed description of the varieties you described, iam leaning on bermudiana, given it is a low light situation that does play a big role in not matching certain traits that are usual for a variety to have that would make description a bit easier. I think from memory the seeds are green and black,  it still remains a mystery, the recurved leaf is still a mystery which I thought would have narrowed it down a bit easier. It may have to wait until it flowers again for a better identification. Thanks helping out.

Richard

10 hours ago, happypalms said:

Would Sabal Bermuda be the one. With a bit of recurved leaf and the seeds look familiar on palmpedia? 

be wary of IDing things via palmpedia, the photos can be a mixed bag of accuracy 

9 hours ago, happypalms said:

Who would have thought a humble Sabal would give so much ID problems. Will try for more detailed pictures, I know the rules we need more pics.

Sabals are like Licuala and Coccothrinax, it feels so easy when you start to ID them and then at the end youre pulling out the millimeter ruler and jewelers loupe

and dont get me started on Dypsis / Chrysalidocarpus haha

47 minutes ago, Hu Palmeras said:

I think we'll all have to go to Richard's house to decide what variety of Sabal we can find.

I shall organise a bus to pick you all up from the airport. For happypalms field day please bring a hat and water, light refreshments will be supplied followed by a lunch at the yacht club with an afternoon tour of the Coffs Harbour botanical gardens. 
thank you 

1 minute ago, knell said:

be wary of IDing things via palmpedia, the photos can be a mixed bag of accuracy 

Sabals are like Licuala and Coccothrinax, it feels so easy when you start to ID them and then at the end youre pulling out the millimeter ruler and jewelers loupe

and dont get me started on Dypsis / Chrysalidocarpus haha

I won’t even go there on licuala and cocothrinax there a minefield especially licuala. Did you say dypsis or chrysalidocarpus……..

It would be lovely, Richard. Only for adventurous spirits.

59 minutes ago, aabell said:

According to the monograph S. mauritiiformis is the only species with 4 orders of branching on the inflorescence - 3 is the "norm". Here is a palm labelled S. causiarum in Ft Myers but the fruit is larger and exactly in range for the description of S. dominguensis, so I suspect it is mislabeled. 

Yes I agree after looking at the monograph again, both domingensis and causiarum have 3 orders of branching on the inflorescences and they extend past the leaves.  So once you have it reduced to these two species the fruit size is definitive.  Not sure there has been a reduction in the OP's palm.  The ones in the pic may be domingensis but I also read they hold onto leaves longer than causiarum past the horizontal.  But that could be another variable feature as these palms look like they need more water and that would be a factor in holding onto leaves.

39 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Yes I agree after looking at the monograph again, both domingensis and causiarum have 3 orders of branching on the inflorescences and they extend past the leaves.  So once you have it reduced to these two species the fruit size is definitive.  Not sure there has been a reduction in the OP's palm.  The ones in the pic may be domingensis but I also read they hold onto leaves longer than causiarum past the horizontal.  But that could be another variable feature as these palms look like they need more water and that would be a factor in holding onto leaves.

That's interesting as well. Went back and that pic I grabbed was from Oct 2023, I think all the Ian damaged leaves had been removed. Here's a more recent photo with a full crown. Definitely very similar species, along with maritima. Seed I think is the only reliable ID

1 hour ago, Hu Palmeras said:

It would be lovely, Richard. Only for adventurous spirits.

For sure an adventure awaits those free spirits. 

8 hours ago, happypalms said:

Oh yeah gyuseppe, like a bull at a gate! I will pick you up at the airport, just  let me know what time! 

Richard, I would love to come to your house and meet you and your wife and see your beautiful palm trees. Unfortunately, we are far away, but never say never.

9 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

Richard, I would love to come to your house and meet you and your wife and see your beautiful palm trees. Unfortunately, we are far away, but never say never.

The world is a small place, you never know what lies in store around the corner. One should make the most of every opportunity in life!