Sylvester vs CIDP

[JohnAndSancho]

I found some seeds on eBay for like $5-6/10 for both of these. Just to recap, I'm in zone 8b in a very swampy part of East Mississippi and I know what the expectations are at this point when growing from seed, but which one would get me closer to instant gratification? Soil is a sandy loam until about 6-8" deep then it turns into clay.

I've already read about digging deep and breaking up and stirring the clay and whatnot. Lotsa sun lotsa water. Does it come down to just a personal aesthetics opinion? It seems like both are hardy down to around 15°f once established, and I've got time to figure this out but more than likely I'd put these on the back of the house near the carport facing roughly SW. 

FWIW I think the Sylvester is more attractive, and I think I'm far enough away from civilization or any other palms to not worry about disease. 

[MarcusH]

CIDP's can tolerate temperatures well into the lower teens and lower ,when mature, while Phoenix Silvestris struggle to survive below 15°F.  Silvestris will be more reliable in a warm 9a climate.  But since you live in a wet climate all of them might be a few degrees less cold tolerant.  How many CIDPs do you see in a 20 mile radius from where you live ?

[JohnAndSancho]

43 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

CIDP's can tolerate temperatures well into the lower teens and lower ,when mature, while Phoenix Silvestris struggle to survive below 15°F.  Silvestris will be more reliable in a warm 9a climate.  But since you live in a wet climate all of them might be a few degrees less cold tolerant.  How many CIDPs do you see in a 20 mile radius from where you live ?

There's a house in town with a couple Trachies and a Sabal Minor in the woods by my house. There's a couple palmettos, a Butia and a few more minors about 35 miles south of here. There's a few more palmettos about 40 miles north. That's all the palms I know of outside of my house. 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, JohnAndSancho said:

There's a house in town with a couple Trachies and a Sabal Minor in the woods by my house. There's a couple palmettos, a Butia and a few more minors about 35 miles south of here. There's a few more palmettos about 40 miles north. That's all the palms I know of outside of my house. 

So , it looks like none of the palms you'd like to grow, growths anywhere around you, ookaay. 

Well , it doesn't really hurt to try to grow either one of it.  If I remember correctly you mentioned that temperatures got down to 9°F at one point. That would be a party pooper right there. To succefully grow either one of your desired seedlings , the winter lows should be in the upper teens and if it gets  below 15 degrees , protection is a must thing to do for survival as long as they're young .  

[JohnAndSancho]

3 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

So , it looks like none of the palms you'd like to grow, growths anywhere around you, ookaay. 

Well , it doesn't really hurt to try to grow either one of it.  If I remember correctly you mentioned that temperatures got down to 9°F at one point. That would be a party pooper right there. To succefully grow either one of your desired seedlings , the winter lows should be in the upper teens and if it gets  below 15 degrees , protection is a must thing to do for survival as long as they're young .  

Yeah, that 9° was a freak event, but as I'm sure you know freak events are normal now. And growing from seed, either way these are gonna be in pots for at least a couple years anyway so we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it. Who knows where I'll be then, you know? 

[UK_Palms]

Didn't that CollectorPalms guy (Ryan maybe) lose a huge 40 foot Sylvestris in College Station during the 2021 Texas freeze? I think he had an ultimate low of about 5F and 150 hours below freezing, with snow. His much smaller CIDP came back and started regrowing eventually, but the Sylvestris and Washingtonia Robusta were all killed. Those were big, established specimens as well.

I would say that if your area has seen 10F or lower in the past few years... there is no chance of you getting a small Sylvestris established there in the longer term. You will get them through several winters, until a bad one hits. They aren't as hardy as CIDP. Sylvestris definitely cannot take as much winter wet-cold as CIDP and they clearly don't have the same recoverability or bud hardiness, with CIDP coming back from 0F in Texas. Has anyone even seen a Sylvestris recover from a +10F minimum even...??? 🤔

Even here I have left tiny CIDP outdoors in communal pots all winter long and usually about 1/3 of them survive, despite my inland location and having no UHI here. I even had 3 of the Southsea CIDP seedlings survive the brutal 22/23 winter in a pot and come back the next spring/summer. Whereas I have lost every single one of my Sylvestris seedlings over winter, even during the mild 21/22 winter.

[JohnAndSancho]

4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Didn't that CollectorPalms guy (Ryan maybe) lose a huge 40 foot Sylvestris in College Station during the 2021 Texas freeze? I think he had an ultimate low of about 5F and 150 hours below freezing, with snow. His much smaller CIDP came back and started regrowing eventually, but the Sylvestris and Washingtonia Robusta were all killed. Those were big, established specimens as well.

I would say that if your area has seen 10F or lower in the past few years... there is no chance of you getting a small Sylvestris established there in the longer term. You will get them through several winters, until a bad one hits. They aren't as hardy as CIDP. Sylvestris definitely cannot take as much winter wet-cold as CIDP and they clearly don't have the same recoverability or bud hardiness, with CIDP coming back from 0F in Texas. Has anyone even seen a Sylvestris recover from a +10F minimum even...??? 🤔

 

Yeah, I lived really close to him at the time. Never drove over there or met him, but I was less than an hour away. I remember that winter very well, I was managing the Marriott and our entire city lost water and all but a few blocks lost power. Fortunately our hotel didn't lose power because we were by the hospital, but me and Sancho were stuck at work for 10 days and honestly, palms were the last thing on my mind at the time. It sucked, and was one of the most traumatizing times of my life. 

I really didn't mean to start a whole thing here, I just saw some cheapass seeds for palms that are gonna sit in pots for... I dunno, at least 2 years. I'm very much aware of the recent winter weather patterns in the southeastern US lol. You're gonna make me spend $6 out of spite here. 

[SeanK]

I think CIDP tolerates more moisture when small than sylvestris. It will be easier to get through juvenile size. 

 

[OutpostPalms]

You could try both. CIDP will fare better if you experience a 8A type winter. But I’d think Sylvester would do better in wet. 10” of rain annually in the Canary Islands versus 70” in West Bengal India granted it’s a monsoon climate with almost all of the rain in a 5 month span. 
 

I have 2 sylvesters and 1 CIDP. I planted them on a mound and backfilled the holes with some sand mixed with the normal soil. I have the same soil situation as you do. 

[JohnAndSancho]

9 minutes ago, OutpostPalms said:

You could try both. CIDP will fare better if you experience a 8A type winter. But I’d think Sylvester would do better in wet. 10” of rain annually in the Canary Islands versus 70” in West Bengal India granted it’s a monsoon climate with almost all of the rain in a 5 month span. 
 

I have 2 sylvesters and 1 CIDP. I planted them on a mound and backfilled the holes with some sand mixed with the normal soil. I have the same soil situation as you do. 

Genuine Mississippi dirt. 

[Chester B]

CIDP are hardier. If you don’t see any within an hour of you don’t bother. Both species have been available for a hundred years, it’s not like you’ll be the first to try, growing them or somehow break “the code”.   Enthusiasm is great but reality is better.   

[JohnAndSancho]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

CIDP are hardier. If you don’t see any within an hour of you don’t bother. Both species have been available for a hundred years, it’s not like you’ll be the first to try, growing them or somehow break “the code”.   Enthusiasm is great but reality is better.   

There doesn't seem to be a huge interest in palms here. And this is more for me than anything else - the house is on a dirt road and hidden by a wall of cedar trees. I literally just wanna have a reason to go outside and have something nice to look at when I walk the dog. 

[JohnAndSancho]

Gah. I found a sweet deal on eBay for a CIDP. There were 2 listings with different prices but all the same pictures, so I messaged her to ask what the difference was since the pics were the same and she politely told me the more expensive one was older and more developed, showed me a picture, then immediately took $5 off. Also has a very nice looking website and plants are something she does to bond with her daughter. I couldn't say no to $15 plus free shipping.