A few nice varieties iam happy to say that have germinated well, the Crysophilla are from RPS so a good batch of seeds there. It’s a long process from ordering to importing and finally getting them to germinate. The odds are stacked in manner of make or break when it comes to imported seeds, even locally collected seeds can be a hit and miss. But it’s the only way you can get rare unobtainable palms rather cheap at times. So what should the going rate of rare palms be worth really. Considering the cost of the seeds, customs fees, shipping, phytosanitry certificate. And if you buy a hundred seeds and get 5 or none to germinate then the rats eat 3 of that 5. Then theres the cost of electricity for heat mats, pumps, propagation medium, containers and medium. Labour on top of that. Does it come down to how rare they are or how many from a batch of a hundred seeds germinate. A lot of factors are involved, if I sell a Joey palm in a 140mm container for $50 Aus dollars, then you see that palm let’s say as an example in a chain store nursery for $120 or more, what is the grower actually making, do rare palms have to have a price hike. When you consider the cost living now it just doesn’t match up to what it’s worth growing or does it? 

I don't have an answer. I've only been into palms for about 5 years now, and sometimes I'll look at prices of things online and think "they want HOW MUCH for a 4" Joey?" for example, and now that I'm messing with seeds and the germination process and realizing just how long some of these palms take to get to a sellable condition, it's like Oh. I kinda get it. I mean there's all the expenses you mentioned, plus some of these seeds take an eternity to germinate and even longer to grow, assuming they survive. 

35 minutes ago, JohnAndSancho said:

I don't have an answer. I've only been into palms for about 5 years now, and sometimes I'll look at prices of things online and think "they want HOW MUCH for a 4" Joey?" for example, and now that I'm messing with seeds and the germination process and realizing just how long some of these palms take to get to a sellable condition, it's like Oh. I kinda get it. I mean there's all the expenses you mentioned, plus some of these seeds take an eternity to germinate and even longer to grow, assuming they survive. 

And don’t forget you have to make something for yourself, I run my growing as a hobby as ten year long term small business venture. Looking at retiring with a few palms to supplement my superannuation fund, at least that way when I get a few bills I can be able to pay them and at least live comfortably, I won’t be be living it up in the Bahamas just a little extra fun funds! 

22 minutes ago, happypalms said:

And don’t forget you have to make something for yourself, I run my growing as a hobby as ten year long term small business venture. Looking at retiring with a few palms to supplement my superannuation fund, at least that way when I get a few bills I can be able to pay them and at least live comfortably, I won’t be be living it up in the Bahamas just a little extra fun funds! 

No sprouting deformed looking palms in baggies in a bedroom for you 😂

That’s the problem when you look at a hobby full of passion through the eyes of a business person. The real rare stuff that takes ages to grow well with never fetch you what it should. They are full on collectors palms that will stay that way and will never become mainstream. These palms we keep for ourselves or trade with other passionate palm people. Then there are the more common stuff but still interesting and different that we can propagate more cheaply possibly with local seed and some Jo public will see the worth and pay for it. Then there is the really common stuff that everyone else sells which as a rare palm grower you may not want to bother with because Bunnings sells heaps of them ie golden canes, bangalows etc. 

If you can get your seed cheaply and in good quality without sitting in quarantine for 3 months because they can’t bother assessing it, then you’re ahead. Or if you can grow your rare palms to produce seed of your own on site then you are miles ahead and then those rarer palms can become accessible to more people at a price people can afford. But the first introductions are never going to be attractive to Jo public at the price you must ask if you’re running a proper business. The costs are way too high. 

3 hours ago, JohnAndSancho said:

No sprouting deformed looking palms in baggies in a bedroom for you 😂

Yep and then the rats eat them. Or even better customs chuck em in the bin and send you a bill for it! 

7 minutes ago, happypalms said:

Yep and then the rats eat them. Or even better customs chuck em in the bin and send you a bill for it! 

Somebody mailed me some seeds a few years ago, and it took months for them to arrive - domestically. Finally I get a note in my mailbox to go to the post office, and they've got a handful of shredded envelopes they ran through a sorting machine and told me I needed to pay $14 if I wanted these packages. What packages? Y'all destroyed them all. 

I casually suggested an alternative spot to place the shredded envelopes and went home. 

2 hours ago, Tyrone said:

That’s the problem when you look at a hobby full of passion through the eyes of a business person. The real rare stuff that takes ages to grow well with never fetch you what it should. They are full on collectors palms that will stay that way and will never become mainstream. These palms we keep for ourselves or trade with other passionate palm people. Then there are the more common stuff but still interesting and different that we can propagate more cheaply possibly with local seed and some Jo public will see the worth and pay for it. Then there is the really common stuff that everyone else sells which as a rare palm grower you may not want to bother with because Bunnings sells heaps of them ie golden canes, bangalows etc. 

If you can get your seed cheaply and in good quality without sitting in quarantine for 3 months because they can’t bother assessing it, then you’re ahead. Or if you can grow your rare palms to produce seed of your own on site then you are miles ahead and then those rarer palms can become accessible to more people at a price people can afford. But the first introductions are never going to be attractive to Jo public at the price you must ask if you’re running a proper business. The costs are way too high. 

Good summary Tyrone. Like anything the price is based on supply and demand; what you’re willing to sell at and what others are willing and able to buy at. From supply side, I’d suggest no one would plan to sell to make a loss which already prices out most buyers for rare stuff when considering the costs involved. 
 

I’m somewhat happy to be just a hobby grower for the moment. My current method would make for a terrible business model. On the whole I really don’t make much if anything at all and even then I probably sell slightly higher than growers from the tropics or much large scale growers because of my costs without the economy of scale. As a collector, I’m not really willing to let go of most of my collection at a price most buyers would consider reasonable. Equally, I’d probably pay a significant amount above what most would consider reasonable for a species I’ve been looking for if there aren’t multiple sources. 

3 hours ago, JohnAndSancho said:

Somebody mailed me some seeds a few years ago, and it took months for them to arrive - domestically. Finally I get a note in my mailbox to go to the post office, and they've got a handful of shredded envelopes they ran through a sorting machine and told me I needed to pay $14 if I wanted these packages. What packages? Y'all destroyed them all. 

I casually suggested an alternative spot to place the shredded envelopes and went home. 

Oh it’s cruel the way they treat rare palm seeds. You can explain to customs all you want about how the6 are endangered or extinct in the wild. It a bureaucratic nightmare of a system that needs to be reviewed. And the best bit is they bill you for it.

5 hours ago, Tyrone said:

That’s the problem when you look at a hobby full of passion through the eyes of a business person. The real rare stuff that takes ages to grow well with never fetch you what it should. They are full on collectors palms that will stay that way and will never become mainstream. These palms we keep for ourselves or trade with other passionate palm people. Then there are the more common stuff but still interesting and different that we can propagate more cheaply possibly with local seed and some Jo public will see the worth and pay for it. Then there is the really common stuff that everyone else sells which as a rare palm grower you may not want to bother with because Bunnings sells heaps of them ie golden canes, bangalows etc. 

If you can get your seed cheaply and in good quality without sitting in quarantine for 3 months because they can’t bother assessing it, then you’re ahead. Or if you can grow your rare palms to produce seed of your own on site then you are miles ahead and then those rarer palms can become accessible to more people at a price people can afford. But the first introductions are never going to be attractive to Jo public at the price you must ask if you’re running a proper business. The costs are way too high. 

Yes if you could put a price on passion for growing it would be endless the limit. A bit like a wood turning for a hobby 150 hours of creating a masterpiece and never being able to get that much back in your time. I did recently have an architect in SA contact me about a job for his client, so that’s the high end of the market iam aiming for if possible for the collectors palms on a large scale. As you say it’s a matter of the collectors and hobbyists as another market for sales. Other than that it’s off to the local markets to get a fair price. The retail sector just want to rip you off, I have tried a commercial hardware store and a lot of what I sold them cheap is still sitting there at a fair reasonable price for a retail sector, but it’s the buying public who need education on a rare palm. I guess it comes down to being a good salesman and selling my product myself to get a fair return for all the cost involved and being able to survive and pay my own bills.

2 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Good summary Tyrone. Like anything the price is based on supply and demand; what you’re willing to sell at and what others are willing and able to buy at. From supply side, I’d suggest no one would plan to sell to make a loss which already prices out most buyers for rare stuff when considering the costs involved. 
 

I’m somewhat happy to be just a hobby grower for the moment. My current method would make for a terrible business model. On the whole I really don’t make much if anything at all and even then I probably sell slightly higher than growers from the tropics or much large scale growers because of my costs without the economy of scale. As a collector, I’m not really willing to let go of most of my collection at a price most buyers would consider reasonable. Equally, I’d probably pay a significant amount above what most would consider reasonable for a species I’ve been looking for if there aren’t multiple sources. 

I guess a hobby grower could really never put a price on there hobby, it is supply and demand and the rare palm market demands rare stuff the rarer the better. As a collector myself the account is endless if you really want that plant. I have seen a rare  anthurium sell for $5000 and a month later the same varietie sell for $450. But it has to be reasonably priced palm as the cost of living is not matching the price of rare palms ( we don’t need to go into what it cost per seed) it’s pure economics. So I guess this is why you don’t see commercial growers selling rare stuff just generic boring plants. I have a friend who does the markets and is growing all the easy succulents and grandma plants, I say to him he will make more money at the markets in one day then if I was next door to him selling my exotics. The difference is the commercial growers are savvy business men and the rare palm growers are passionate about their plants. A fine line between a hobby and a business, and the way government has made it difficult for small businesses to survive I will stick with my hobby for now just like you do. We just have to sell our palms as a salesman would sell cars! 

20 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Good summary Tyrone. Like anything the price is based on supply and demand; what you’re willing to sell at and what others are willing and able to buy at. From supply side, I’d suggest no one would plan to sell to make a loss which already prices out most buyers for rare stuff when considering the costs involved. 
 

I’m somewhat happy to be just a hobby grower for the moment. My current method would make for a terrible business model. On the whole I really don’t make much if anything at all and even then I probably sell slightly higher than growers from the tropics or much large scale growers because of my costs without the economy of scale. As a collector, I’m not really willing to let go of most of my collection at a price most buyers would consider reasonable. Equally, I’d probably pay a significant amount above what most would consider reasonable for a species I’ve been looking for if there aren’t multiple sources. 

Yes. I’m the same in that I’ve been buying seeds for decades and I’ve unfortunately killed lots of palms with inexperience etc etc. That’s how you learn though. 
However when it comes to landscaping my property down here I’ve probably broke even or am ahead as I’ve grown almost all of it myself and if I had to buy everything retail at a larger size I probably would have to spend over 100K. I did have one person ask where I got everything from as they realised that there was more here than any local supply. Also most of my collection just isn’t available at retail nurseries. 
However what shouldn’t be ignored is the price of a passion. It’s a healthy hobby. There’s lots of other things you could actually waste tonnes of money on and have nothing to show for it in 20 years. Not with this hobby. You will end up with a priceless collection in time. So if you want to spend 1400 Euros on 100 Sabinaria seed then do it. It’s much cheaper than a jet ski, or a night at the casino. 

6 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Yes. I’m the same in that I’ve been buying seeds for decades and I’ve unfortunately killed lots of palms with inexperience etc etc. That’s how you learn though. 
However when it comes to landscaping my property down here I’ve probably broke even or am ahead as I’ve grown almost all of it myself and if I had to buy everything retail at a larger size I probably would have to spend over 100K. I did have one person ask where I got everything from as they realised that there was more here than any local supply. Also most of my collection just isn’t available at retail nurseries. 
However what shouldn’t be ignored is the price of a passion. It’s a healthy hobby. There’s lots of other things you could actually waste tonnes of money on and have nothing to show for it in 20 years. Not with this hobby. You will end up with a priceless collection in time. So if you want to spend 1400 Euros on 100 Sabinaria seed then do it. It’s much cheaper than a jet ski, or a night at the casino. 

I guess it’s like overcapitalising on your property, if you’re living there it’s not overcapitalising, and yes the end result is a garden that stands out from the rest adding value to your property. And as you say I could think of a lot a things to waste money on, a lump sum of long service leave for 20 years of working I would see as a retirement investment in a 100 sabinara for sure you could think of it as a retirement fund locked up in palms a great investment. As long as the rats stay away!